Review RPG Codex Review: Pillars of Eternity - By Vault Dweller and the Spirit of Grunker

[tuluse]

There's more than one way to "meet the stretch goals" though, and ticking off the bullet points doesn't necessarily mean you got quality content. Even people who like the game have complained about the Stronghold and to a lesser extent about the megadungeon.

That doesn't change the fact that HBS did not meet their stretch goals within any "deadline". They took extra time. That was my point. Refuting they magically know how to meet deadlines.

 

[Sabin Rene Figaro]

Too bad all of them are equally bland.

I played as a Monk primarily, Cipher second, Bard third and Ranger fourth (when they buffed Rangers to not be complete shit) and had fun with all of them, not to mention managing my companions. The variety of PoE in classes is definitely a big strength of it compared to every other modern CRPG.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Too bad all of them are equally bland.

I played as a Monk primarily, Cipher second, Bard third and Ranger fourth (when they buffed them to not be complete shit) and had fun with all of them, not to mention managing my companions. The variety of PoE in classes is definitely a big strength of it compared to every other modern CRPG.

Agreed. All classes I played so far are fun to play with, including all complanions.

 

[Copper]

How do people have fun with the Monk? Worst pause-to-micro class of them all with Torment's Reach in my experience, thank god I didn't create an MC monk.

 

[Ninjerk]

How do people have fun with the Monk? Worst pause-to-micro class of them all with Torment's Reach in my experience, thank god I didn't create an MC monk.

IIRC, the "monk expert" I talked to short after release said on his TCS runs he was able to get higher single target dps with that first passive you can choose (instead of Tormented Reach) and the one that adds Lightning damage to your fist attacks. I don't know where that goes lategame on account of not playing it in months, but it's something to look at in any case.

 

[Excidium II]

Monk is my favourite class in PoE by a mile, tanky DPS is my style and you actually have to think on what ability to use unlike other physical classes. Plus Sitting on AoE and disengaging from melee powers your attacks, how cool is that

I take Torment's Reach over Swift Strikes because I prefer more active characters, didn't find it really micro-heavy, at least not compared to wizards trying to cast Fan of Flames without doing friendly fire while hitting as many enemies as possible

 

[Copper]

Monk is my favourite class in PoE by a mile, tanky DPS is my style and you actually have to think on what ability to use unlike other physical classes. Plus Sitting on AoE and disengaging from melee powers your attacks, how cool is that

I take Torment's Reach over Swift Strikes because I prefer more active characters, didn't find it really micro-heavy, at least not compared to wizards trying to cast Fan of Flames without doing friendly fire while hitting as many enemies as possible

Fair enough, I found Fan of Flames positioning one of the few interesting things going for early game encounters - except against Shadow/Phantoms. Then again, I only used it once per fight, normally, whereas the Monk earned wounds faster than he could spend them, and seemed like a shit fighter without spending them. I was pretty active with my Rogue, so I guess I just wanted another zombie to hold the line - which Pallegina provided.

I probably would have finished the game if I'd never picked her up though, in some ways it was a rage-quit at her epic quest. It made me realise how few shits I gave about the characters, including my own.

 

[Irenaeus II]

What's wrong with her quest?

 

[Copper]

Apart from being simply underdeveloped, and hence a bit underwhelming/boring? The end choices when talking to the tribal chief are basically meaningless, and a parody of the game's writing style to boot. If I've encouraged Pallegina to stick to her vows, why is nod encouragingly with shining eyes(wtf?) the trigger for her to follow her heart? There is more, but since even her writer thinks she's badly done, what do you think is right with her quest? Did you dig the fantasy economics?

 

[Sabin Rene Figaro]

How do people have fun with the Monk? Worst pause-to-micro class of them all with Torment's Reach in my experience, thank god I didn't create an MC monk.

I eventually learned Torment's Reach but that was definitely not the ability I used the most. I went all the way with the one that made you attack faster. Torment's Reach was a very situational tool.

Force of Anguish is also more important. Punch the big fucker that's annoying you far away from you to concentrate on the less meaty targets.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Apart from being simply underdeveloped

It is kinda simple and short indeed.

The end choices when talking to the tribal chief are basically meaningless

Not if you care about the setting/lore/end slides like I do.

and a parody of the game's writing style to boot.

What do you mean?

If I've encouraged Pallegina to stick to her vows, why is nod encouragingly with shining eyes(wtf?) the trigger for her to follow her heart?

I encouranged her to betray the Ducs' confidence and strike a new deal that wouldn't fuck Dyrwood (because I like the Dyrwood). To be honest, I can't remember exactly what actions I took, but I remember playing games with the mind of that featherheaded fool.

There is more, but since even her writer thinks she's badly done

Really? Wasn't she written by Sawyer himself? When did he (or whoever wrote her) said she's badly done?

what do you think is right with her quest? Did you dig the fantasy economics?

I guess so, I like geopolitics of trade and economics stuff, even in fantasy, as I'm a macroeconomist master irl. I also like machiavellicaly manipulating weak minded freaks like Sawyergina :D Particularly when the future of something I like (Free Palatinate of Dyrwood) is at stake.

 

[Tigranes]

How do people have fun with the Monk? Worst pause-to-micro class of them all with Torment's Reach in my experience, thank god I didn't create an MC monk.

I eventually learned Torment's Reach but that was definitely not the ability I used the most. I went all the way with the one that made you attack faster. Torment's Reach was a very situational tool.

Force of Anguish is also more important. Punch the big fucker that's annoying you far away from you to concentrate on the less meaty targets.

Monk solo can be pretty fun. And as said above, you can have less micro-y monks that actually rely on banking up their wounds.

 

[Copper]

Apart from being simply underdeveloped

It is kinda simple and short indeed.

The end choices when talking to the tribal chief are basically meaningless

Not if you care about the setting/lore/end slides like I do.

and a parody of the game's writing style to boot.

What do you mean?

If I've encouraged Pallegina to stick to her vows, why is nod encouragingly with shining eyes(wtf?) the trigger for her to follow her heart?

I encouranged her to betray the Ducs' confidence and strike a new deal that wouldn't fuck Dyrwood (because I like the Dyrwood). To be honest, I can't remember exactly what actions I took, but I remember playing games with the mind of that featherheaded fool.

There is more, but since even her writer thinks she's badly done

Really? Wasn't she written by Sawyer himself? When did he (or whoever wrote her) said she's badly done?

what do you think is right with her quest? Did you dig the fantasy economics?

I guess so, I like geopolitics of trade and economics stuff, even in fantasy, as I'm a macroeconomist master irl. I also like machiavellicaly manipulating weak minded freaks like Sawyergina :D Particularly when the future of something I like (Free Palatinate of Dyrwood) is at stake.

Too lazy to dig for quotes for something I don't really care about, Josh said he didn't have time to do much with her, and he understands why people don't like her, and would have done more/better if he could. Also too lazy to be the VD to your hiver, but if you think you were playing mind games to get her to not screw the Dyrwood... that's what she does if you're just [Stoic] the whole time.

As for the parody/meaningless choice comment, it's not the impact on the ending slide, it's that the phrasing of your interactions as 'daddy' with Pallegina in the final negotiation are basically ridiculous, and completely opaque. It's like some VN choice - do you:

1. Smile warmly with bright eyes
2. Shake head with open lips
3. [Stoic]*

* Not actual choice, obviously, but it's not that far off.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Hahaha I had a hunch she was going to betray them anyway! Score for the Dyrwood! Lesson here for the naive Vailian ducs bels: Never put trust on freaks of nature. She can go fight in the north for no reason, like I care hahah

Spoiler

For her outrageous insubordination and audacity, Pallegina was banished from the Republics. She traveled north in the Eastern Reach, avoiding Vailian ports and entering the ranks of the Kind Wayfarers. Despite her bravery and dedication to those in her care, her strange appearance made her feel like an outsider wherever she went.

It's not only her appearence as they imply, she's one rotten egg

 

[Bubbles]

Hahaha I had a hunch she was going to betray them anyway!

Actually, making the stoic choice "[Shrug]" results in a 50/50 die roll determining whether she goes through with the deal or not.

Spoiler

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[ROARRR]

Pallegina seemed like someone who loves justice due to her experience as an outsider her whole life.
I would say if you have human rights in your veins than she even would have gave her soul for you.
Her patriotism is a band-aid for the "wound" that she is clearly different.
I liked the concept behind her but more of personality content would have been awesome!
Actually for all Companions I would say.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Hahaha I had a hunch she was going to betray them anyway!

Actually, making the stoic choice "[Shrug]" results in a 50/50 die roll determining whether she goes through with the deal or not.

Spoiler

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Nice. Thanks for the info. I went along without those [feelings] tags, just guessing.

She going 50/50 just shows how even more unreliable and "lolrandom" she is XD. That said, I liked her as a character, felt well written and realistic to me. Well, for a RPG companion, that is.

I liked the concept behind her but more of personality content would have been awesome!
Actually for all Companions I would say.

Sure, the more the merrier.

 

[Sabin Rene Figaro]

Actually, making the stoic choice "[Shrug]" results in a 50/50 die roll determining whether she goes through with the deal or not.

Really? That's awesome. I went Stoic on her all the way through because her being pissed off at me and not knowing what to do without my help was highly entertaining. Only thing I liked about Pallegina.

 

[Cadmus]

My takeaway from this thread is that some people genuinely believe that players should not be awarded for playing well.

Yeah this is hilarious. This is the reason why in games like Call of Duty MW2 and stuff you get rewarded for death streaks and things like that.

If you have skill, you should find it easy.

My personal belief is that games should be made for the best players, not the average joe, or babbling idiots. But then again I've played a lot of competitive games, so that is probably unsurprising.

I'll c/p one of my earlier posts on this subject... though I'm pretty sure this was discussed on the codex a few billion times previously.

The party becoming too powerful when going off the beaten path is a problem in pretty much every game (not just RPG) because of lazy design: optional content that rewards players for doing it by increasing their power. Devs need to balance for the crit path, so if you're doing every single sidequest, it'll pretty much destroy all challenge you can encounter on the main quest. PoE actually does somewhat OK on this front by shifting most of the difficult content into side quests and side areas (e.g. endless paths) to begin with... though honestly, a lot of the side content is easier than the crit path, so doing it isn't any evidence of "playing well".

In case of shooters and stuff, the answer is easy: high scores (or ~cheevos~). It has no actual gameplay effect, and lets the best players compete on the leaderboards. IMO the 'good' (non-lazy) solution in an RPG would be to design the game from the ground up to grant XP only after achieving certain objectives on the crit path, and optional content only rewarding the player in ways that don't directly affect player/party power: opening up certain options in later quests, getting a better ending for a particular faction, etc.

this is an anti-thesis of what fun in an RPG is supposed to be about (or in an FPS for that matter)

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Yeah, you shouldn't punish the player with easymode for actually playing the game, and just-for-flavor rewards can get a bit annoying if that's all you get after going through that difficult dungeon in the middle of nowhere. Best thing to do is to not make the critical path hard enough that the player will naturally start looking around for side stuff to increase his power, instead of doing it for completeness' sake.

 

[T. Reich]

Yeah, you shouldn't punish the player with easymode for actually playing the game, and just-for-flavor rewards can get a bit annoying if that's all you get after going through that difficult dungeon in the middle of nowhere. Best thing to do is to not make the critical path hard enough that the player will naturally start looking around for side stuff to increase his power, instead of doing it for completeness' sake.

Inb4 accusations of "padding", "grinding" and "unbalanced" from the grateful ADDled consumers.

 

[tuluse]

Yeah, you shouldn't punish the player with easymode for actually playing the game, and just-for-flavor rewards can get a bit annoying if that's all you get after going through that difficult dungeon in the middle of nowhere. Best thing to do is to not make the critical path hard enough that the player will naturally start looking around for side stuff to increase his power, instead of doing it for completeness' sake.

Or alternatively, have optional stuff that's really hard. Or just use difficulty settings correctly.

 

[Archibald]

Difficulty settings should be killed with fire. +50% HP to all enemies, best design ever.

 

[tuluse]

Difficulty settings should be killed with fire. +50% HP to all enemies, best design ever.

 

[markec]

If anything difficulty settings should be expanded.