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Review RPG Codex Review: Divinity: Original Sin 2

Discussion in 'RPG News & Content' started by Infinitron, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. vivec Self-Ejected

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    This Josh Sawyer is le master of le balance meme needs to die.
     
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  2. Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss Erudite Patron

    Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    But all things being equal, RNG trumps deterministic systems. I know some people can drive with their feet and eat meat with a pen, but that does not make neither feet more appropriate than hands in driving nor does it make pens more suitable than a fork to eat a steak. When you design a simulationist system that removes the RNG you are ditching one of the aspects of real battles. Is it impossible? No. Is it a good idea? Not really.
     
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  3. Prime Junta Arcane

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    Maybe.

    On the other hand, it was striking how Joshist the underlying assumptions in the review are. Roxor simply takes it for granted that trap choices are bad, that putting points in different abilities in different ways should be a meaningful choice with different outcomes, that having different pools for combat and non-combat abilities is good, and so on and so forth. A few years ago all of these were massively controversial opinions, now nobody bats an eyelid.

    Considering the vitriol he raises, he's had a massive impact on how the Codex thinks about RPG systems.
     
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  4. Tom Baker's Arse Learned

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  5. Paul_cz Erudite

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    Very well written review. Kind mindblowing to read after all the praise I read elsewhere. But it seems honest.

    Now I want Bubbles *and* Darth Roxor to review Kingdom Come (once patched).
     
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  6. Sacred82 Liturgist Possibly Retarded

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    you monster
     
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  7. Grunker RPG Codex Ghost Patron

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    Codex 2012 Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Almost made this joke but then considered against it, since, well, it's basically not a joke, it pretty much is what it looks like :M
     
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  8. Darth Roxor Prestigious Gentleman Wielder of the Huegpenis

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  9. Sacred82 Liturgist Possibly Retarded

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    hmm

    you mean the island with the armor Roxor complained becomes obsolete too quickly?
     
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  10. Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss Erudite Patron

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    The difference is that by the time you mastered the system, there is very little challenge involved, the situation being unequal or not. At least in a RNG system you can have some bad rolls.

    But then again, if there is no RNG involved, it is easier to predict the effects of each ability. Besides, this line of reasoning is self-defeating. If it is good to provide different abilities to make battles less repetitive, it seems only natural that you will provide the possible of different rolls to make each battle more unique.

    You are missing the big picture here. A deterministic strange game with interesting abilities and combos would even better with RNG. The point is that all things being equal, RNG trumps deterministic systems.
     
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  11. Prime Junta Arcane

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    Come to think of it... so have I

    :despair:
     
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  12. Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss Erudite Patron

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    The balance that Sawyer strives for is synonimous with making things achievable by every flight of the fancy that any player may have. The result of this doctrine is that character building seems meaningless. What Roxor is arguing is that character building in DO:2 is meaningless because you need to make every character into a glass cannon. It has nothing to do with Sawyer's doctrine. It's the opposite.
     
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  13. cvv Arcane Patron

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    Holy shit Rox is getting almost professional at this shit.

    90% agreed. It's a dumb game with broken mechanics, lulz loot and terrible quests. No wonder it's Codex GOTY with perhaps the widest margin ever. Because muh turn based, pretty graphix and isometric nostalgiafaggotry. Bah.
     
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  14. vivec Self-Ejected

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    I am not talking about the comparison of Roxor with Sawyer. But rather about the fact that Sawyer fails at what he preaches.

    Maybe. I like to use RNG to encourage experimentation. i.e. you know what you have and then you take a chance and push your luck by rolling a die to either increase or decrease chances of success.


    Seriously dude.

    This is the kind of cult of personality that makes me wonder if you people can think. To ask for basic responsiveness from a game is quite usual amongst players. It has literally nothing to do with one developer.
     
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  15. Brancaleone Learned

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    Hey Prime Junta it looks like Roguey hijacked your account.

    Sawyer for sure has had a big impact on the Codex' intellectual wannabes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  16. Sacred82 Liturgist Possibly Retarded

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    :lol:

    Yeah, I got that. Do more damage, take less damage. Still not that unusual for RPG stats, is it? It's not a problem in itself without context.

    well fuck me, that does sound horrible.

    could be me but I didn't see you mentioning that skills are absolutely identical, that would at least have told us something.

    hmm

    Fail the persuasion check, have to fight. Doesn't sound out of place, really. In fact, having a persuasion stat that dynamically takes into account your character's primary stat rather than being tied to a fixed stat sounds kind of smart to me, in theory. And then you'd still have things like stealth for example, surely that would still be possible?

    well, certainly more than civil skills (one-handed, two-handed etc.)

    you referred to all Larian games to justify goofy writing.

    My impression from reading the forums is much different from that. Honestly, you can't have parody AND epicness in the same thing. The epicness either only serves to increase the parody, or else seems like a droopy-eyed concession to the fact that people actually like over the top drama, no matter how dumb it is.

    uhm ok, so it's got da lulz, how exactly is it grimdark then?

    In Ultima VII you had a scrawny tailor who fancied himself a lean mean killing machine, and you had to save his sorry ass for muh XP.

    huh?

    As in, animal abuse doesn't exist (especially in faux-medieval times where we can assume people to use beasts of burden), or you don't want to hear about it?

    This really seems to be a matter of taste first and foremost, and a rather specific one at that.

    Good. Not that any of this would belong in a review of the game written for RPG fans.

    I can respect you not liking the style, it's just that that's not really what you wrote in the review ("ubiquity"). Also bringing up mental illness in the context of presentation of sex and abuse simply makes people seem retarded, sorry not sorry.

    I did, didn't I.

    :australia:
     
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  17. Ismaul Arcane Patron

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    Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
    That's not necessarily bad, as it allows for better planning, which is great.

    But by the time you've mastered the system, it's time to play something else, if combat is all there is to it. The possibility to have bad rolls wouldn't make it better, or even less challenging since the RNG is balanced for a certain difficulty which you've mastered.

    Why? There's a point where variation is useful and there's a point where it's just too much to be able to plan moves and character builds properly. If the encounters are unique, with different setups, terrain, positioning, enemy composition, player composition, and power levels, that could be enough variation.

    I don't see any good reason why RNG would trump deterministic systems in all scenarios. Every system needs to have some things fixed and some things varied, and it need not be attack/defense rolls.
     
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  18. Volrath Arcane Patron

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    No we're fucking not you fucking faggot.
     
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  19. AwesomeButton Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

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    PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    I came here to say that these self-conditioning sessions about how tactical choices matter and are required by how the combat system is designed, remind me of the same arguments raging over how tactical choices matter in PoE. But I see the parallels have already been made. Then again, it wouldn't be entirely true, because in my experience, even with all the dumbness of D:OS2's combat system, at least you can get smashed in combat if you do stupid as opposed to smart things.
     
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  20. Perkel Arcane

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    Imo time for purge. Klean Kodex Kasusls

    :mob:

    Bigger problem is that you are not rewarded for smart choices. Because either way you need to get off that damn armor which means DPS DPS DPS baby.

    Care to point out any deterministic RPG first that is actually good ? I struggle to remember any.
    Secondly DR does make good argument. You are playing RPG not Puzzle game. The more deterministic system is the more predictable and boring it is.

    If you argue otherwise then why the hell to even include things like accuracy, different skills etc ? He made good argument. You don't play cheess or puzzle game you play RPG in which non determinism is usually paramount to it being GOOD rpg or not. If you build highly non deterministic system which is fair and you can make game out of its randomness that doesn't suck you have RPG of the year/decade.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  21. Durandal Arcane

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    lmao'ing at everyone thinking RNG in RPGs only implies failure/success rolls for hits and crits

    RNG is a great asset for determining following AI actions, preventing the player from just executing a flawless plan by having the enemy AI behave unpredictably and not like how you want them to. Maybe the AI has a grand keikaku of its own. I figure plenty of RPGs do already employ a bit of randomness for determining upcoming actions, however most AIs in RPGs are too simplistic and short-sighted in their behavior for the game to really rely on AI for making battles feel unpredictable and keep you on your toes, so they need to be made up for with rolls for hits and unique encounter design in order to make combat feel properly varied.
     
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  22. Sacred82 Liturgist Possibly Retarded

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    you can have unpredictable behavior without damage ranges though
     
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  23. Sigourn Arcane Village Idiot

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    There's nothing wrong with balance™ when done properly. If a game lets you pick between +5% melee damage and +5% damage in all forms of combat, it's not so much about removing choice but removing pointless choices. It's simply trimming the fat. People against this may as well play RPGs drowned in pointless stats and numbers, where the excitement comes more from "I've found the only worthwile skill" as opposed to "I had to choose between many good skills and picked the one I think is the best". I don't know about you guys, but I personally prefer making tough decisions as opposed to pointless busywork because the dev was too much of an imbecile to properly balance his game and making sure there was a reason to use each skill instead of making many of them redundant. It also makes the worthwile elements of a game more visible. Sure, one game may have 100 stats. But only 10 may be useful. Whereas another may have 20 stats, and ALL of them have a good use.

    Quality > Quantity, any day.

    EDIT: as an addendum to this post, this was precisely what made Gothic much superior to most RPGs I've played. It didn't gave you tons of customization options for your character, but the few it gave you were extremely meaningful. At times in The Witcher I would increase my different skills, but the few that were actually tangible were those that unlocked new abilities or combos. I would have preferred thus for progression to be slower, but each choice meaningful, as opposed to progression being quicker (as it is in TW) and choices being pointless.
     
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  24. vivec Self-Ejected

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    Pretty much. "Balancing" a game by making all action equally pointless, boring numeric tackons is what is wrong with these games.
     
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  25. Sigourn Arcane Village Idiot

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    It also helps understand what is wrong with some Codexers. They think that if a game has many numbers = good. But it is more of a matter of "how meaningful are those numbers?". Having more numbers/skills/Perks/attributes does allow more customization. But more customization doesn't translate to a better experience if those different stats aren't exploited to their fullest. While having less stats is considered to be a bad thing in the Codex, at least there's an implicit reasoning behind it: by having less stats, developers focused more on removing pointless stats than actually making them worth your while. It's pretty much my grudge with Bethesda. Spears in Morrowind were fairly pointless, but a better developer would have made their ranged combat actually useful (like Vagrant Story did :obviously:). Different weapons have arisen in real life for a reason, and a developer that doesn't translate this distinction into their games have failed to justify their existence in them.

    Requiem (Skyrim mod) changed how bows, crossbows, swords, maces, and axes work to great effect. It went beyond "this weapon looks cool" (for the latter three) and "this is for stealth archery" in the case of bows. Crossbows became useful instead of worthless, as they could pierce through armor from a distance.
     
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