Editorial RPG Codex Retrospective: Roguey dismantles white privilege in Tim Cain's Temple of Elemental Evil

[Infinitron]

There really are no truly difficult RPGs. I thought everyone just sort of knew this

My issue is not with difficulty or things being "hard", (as I mentioned earlier in the thread, make enemies that are difficult to hit and who hit you for a lot of damage, and you have hard content right there) it's with interesting content. Interesting usually means mentally demanding in some way, and/or battles with unique aspects that set them apart from other battles, and ToEE is too lacking in these areas.

This comment was not a response to your article so I don't know why you quoted it unless you were just ragesearching retardo land to find shoutbox quotes of me. Especially since the context of that quote is me saying exactly what you just said in different words, if I recall. Difficulty is unimportant unless the game is actually difficult (most RPGs aren't), what matters is whether the game has interesting things to do.

You also implied, however, that issues of "balance" were completely irrelevant to whether a game has interesting things to do. I think Roguey would disagree with that.

 

[Volourn]

"Shadowrun: Dragonfall may have had an awful system, but I thought it had interesting content from start to finish. Unlike a lot of other RPGs, its third act was more demanding than the previous two. It's not like I have impossibly-high standards."

Your opinion on 'game diffiuclty' is now considered shit useless. SRR is beyond easy. FFS

 

[DefJam101]

There really are no truly difficult RPGs. I thought everyone just sort of knew this

My issue is not with difficulty or things being "hard", (as I mentioned earlier in the thread, make enemies that are difficult to hit and who hit you for a lot of damage, and you have hard content right there) it's with interesting content. Interesting usually means mentally demanding in some way, and/or battles with unique aspects that set them apart from other battles, and ToEE is too lacking in these areas.

This comment was not a response to your article so I don't know why you quoted it unless you were just ragesearching retardo land to find shoutbox quotes of me. Especially since the context of that quote is me saying exactly what you just said in different words, if I recall. Difficulty is unimportant unless the game is actually difficult (most RPGs aren't), what matters is whether the game has interesting things to do.

You also implied, however, that issues of "balance" were completely irrelevant to whether a game has interesting things to do. I think Roguey would disagree with that.

Posting from a mobile phone #swag #yolo so typing anything lengthy is gonna be hard.

Balance is important to preserve the decision-making portion of any actually difficult game, because in a game where the fun results from trying to win (and not just "experiencing the game") any obvious winning strategy is a no-brainer, which is bad. In a game where you can figure out winning strategies after two hours of gameplay (e.g. most RPGs) balance is secondary to making things interesting and engaging, because "playing to win" trivializes the game no matter what decisions you make. Singleplayer games are especially flexible in this regard since you can design games wherein adopting some sort of forced 'conduct' (like, say, not crafting wands, or something) allows players seeking a challenge the option to alter the game's difficulty

 

[Roguey]

"Your opinion on 'game diffiuclty' is now considered shit useless. SRR is beyond easy. FFS"

Dragonfall isn't Dead Man's Switch.

Pardon me? ah i get it, Jaesun and the other guy have made u mad. Lol. What did you do to Roguey Jaesun to deserve such targeted attacks?

"I don't go 'haha i'm better than you at games' to anyone unless they act like an upstart like you do."

Upstarts. You joined in late 2012 so you missed out on skyway during his upstart prime, and "Was KotOR your first RPG?" speaks for itself.

 

[ben_reck]

I wasn't too excited about the smack talk in the article; it wasn't exactly a highly formal piece of writing.

While the writer aggressively critiques D&D 3.5, it would be impossible to miss the writer's love for the game/system. Who else would ... do all that the writer has done with respect to ToEE? Unless it was all about masochism. And given the nature of many of the encounters, it may have been. Mostly, they were neither hard nor easy, just tedious.

The question of difficulty in an RPG is an intriguing one. Sometimes it just seems that "hard" equates to "long" where an encounter requires more grinding to overcome rather than pattern recognition, resource allocation, varying tactics and so on. Is a game like Dark Souls even hard? Or is it just long? Because I never really got good at it even though I finished it.

Perhaps, we want something more like creativity than difficulty, the novelty of flicking toad tongues.

 

[King Crispy]

To borrow a phrase from Josh, good shit in le shoutbox archive thread

Roguey's talking about my comments in Shoutbox, so let me address those comments about my comments:

she metagames the whole thing then criticizes both it and other Codexers for not being as elite as she is at it.

I don't really see what I did that was so "metagamey" considering this is a combat-focused crawl with very little role playing. Making good, informed decisions isn't metagaming.

From your own magnum opus:

Those tongue-grappling frogs were a great welcoming committee to the moathouse, the first dungeon of the game. I had problems with them in the past, but this time around I trounced them with the use of buffs and summons.

You don't specifically state that you pre-casted Bless or summoned the creatures ahead of time here, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this time.

However,

I guess Lubash, the hard-hitting, damage-soaking ogre, could cause problems to those who aren't prepared.

This is pretty damning. Fighting Lubash with a non-twinked, non-pre-buffed party in standard ToEE is genuinely challenging. One hit from him can easily inflict 20 or more HP in damage, more than enough to send most fighter-types at that point in the game flying across the room unconscious or dead. Even I took a couple or three attempts on this fight during my first playthrough (and sometimes even on subsequent ones), but the difference is I didn't mind at all. I simply asked my inner DM for a do-over, which he always happily provides.

Pre-buff every fight, ignore that inner DM screaming at you.

I didn't prebuff before every fight. I just mentioned it's a thing you can do.

It sounds like it's a thing you did do, on more than one occasion. q.v.

When it came to the big tower fight with all the men, archers, witches and wizard, I was level 4 and completed it on my first attempt with my mage being the only one to even suffer any damage. That's the power of pre-buffing (and some good rolls I guess).

Smoking gun. That particular fight, maybe moreso than any other one in the entire game, can be a real bear. You're walking into a situation in which the enemy severely outnumbers you, has essentially entrenched positions with artillery (archers and spellcasters), has what should be the element of surprise on you or at least a significant tactical advantage of appearing to be expecting trouble, and you quickly and intentionally took most of that away with your choices of how to handle it "this time around", I guess. Un-prebuffed, this fight can be a nightmare. With some light pre-buffing, it's do-able, if barely (again, I'm talking about with what most would consider an "average", non-twinked and non-powergamed party, just as Gary and the original module would have intended, although I do admit I don't remember whether this particular fight was in the original module or not. I don't think it was.)

It's fine with me that you resorted to it, because I think I had to as well to get past it with my horribly boring standard AD&D party, but you don't see me or anyone else around here bringing it up as a point of pride like you appear to be doing. The mere mention of it along with your calling out of other Codexers in the same space just reeks of hubris, and hubris combined with disingenuousness is a particularly nasty combination.

It's too bad, Roguey, because you have some talent for writing. Your command of the English language is apparent; your command of being a decent fellow roleplaying game nerd is sorely lacking.

 

[kris]

Troika was full of sexists and racists who deserved to lose their jobs btw.

Now you just gone over to trolling.

 

[Volourn]

"Dragonfall isn't Dead Man's Switch."

Same shit different pile.

 

[ben_reck]

Lubash: Yes, he was a dangerous opponent. The whole moathouse/bandit stronghold map seemed stronger than the rest (variety of foes/cartography) which might account for some of the disappointment with the temple itself.

Tower Fight: It's been too long for me remember more than impressions, so I can only offer that I don't remember this fight being particularly deadly. You do have a lot of targets but they aren't heavy hitters.

What's our definition of hard, anyhow? Winning the battle without any buffs? Winning the battle in 2-3 tries with some prep?

 

[Roguey]

"Same shit different pile."

No.

This is pretty damning. Fighting Lubash with a non-twinked, non-pre-buffed party in standard ToEE is genuinely challenging. One hit from him can easily inflict 20 or more HP in damage, more than enough to send most fighter-types at that point in the game flying across the room unconscious or dead. Even I took a couple or three attempts on this fight during my first playthrough (and sometimes even on subsequent ones), but the difference is I didn't mind at all. I simply asked my inner DM for a do-over, which he always happily provides.

How is this metagaming? I usually scout with a stealthed rogue my first time through a dungeon. Spot ogre, prepare for him in advance. Alternately, find the robes in the north, put them on, pass speech check, take him out at your leisure. Alternately, identify him with the ranger's tracking ability.

Smoking gun. That particular fight, maybe moreso than any other one in the entire game, can be a real bear. You're walking into a situation in which the enemy severely outnumbers you, has essentially entrenched positions with artillery (archers and spellcasters), has what should be the element of surprise on you or at least a significant tactical advantage of appearing to be expecting trouble, and you quickly and intentionally took most of that away with your choices of how to handle it "this time around", I guess. Un-prebuffed, this fight can be a nightmare. With some light pre-buffing, it's do-able, if barely (again, I'm talking about with what most would consider an "average", non-twinked and non-powergamed party, just as Gary and the original module would have intended, although I do admit I don't remember whether this particular fight was in the original module or not. I don't think it was.)

It was. It didn't have any spellcasters though.

No metagaming here either. There's a nonhostile guard or two outside the tower who will warn you away and tell you there's a bunch of guys inside who will kill you on sight. If that isn't telling you to prepare for a big fight, I don't know what is. Just strolling in like whatever would be stupid.

It's strange that you would have a problem with "I found these interesting enough to mention, but personally found them easy."

 

[King Crispy]

Okay, good counter-arguments, but there's no denying the exploitish and accompanying hobnobbish tone to your article. It's still awash in it even after your third revision of it (I saw the original).

 

[crawlkill]

I would dislike Roguey if so many Codexers didn't so vocally dislike him (? I thought Roguey was a chick but I've seen hims in this thread so I'm gonna use him, sorry if that's wrong). the fact that so many Codexers object to him on such an infantile level, though, makes me like him. It's the whole Redskins team name thing--maybe it wasn't a big deal, but the number of people who -insisted- that it wasn't once the conversation about it got loud verified that it actually was. the best way to confirm that toxic PRIVLAJ is in the air is to criticize it and see how many people dismiss you, and how much rage they show doing so. Roguey is good at exposing that.

 

[Melcar]

I'm in too a good mood right now to finish this turd of an article.

 

[DefJam101]

(? I thought Roguey was a chick but I've seen hims in this thread so I'm gonna use him, sorry if that's wrong)

You should flip a coin, like I did. Heads woman, tails man. Doing this will feel strange at first but in the long run your mind will broaden, as you realize just how retarded online anonymous social interaction can, and inevitably will, become

I like to imagine there's a group of oppressed tumblrmensches somewhere out there who call themselves chancegendered. As in, they flip a coin each morning to determine what gender they are.

 

[ben_reck]

Ze, Ze, Ze, I say, but never say.

 

[Melcar]

Aren't those fluidgenders or whatever?

 

[Telengard]

I would dislike Roguey if so many Codexers didn't so vocally dislike him (? I thought Roguey was a chick but I've seen hims in this thread so I'm gonna use him, sorry if that's wrong). the fact that so many Codexers object to him on such an infantile level, though, makes me like him. It's the whole Redskins team name thing--maybe it wasn't a big deal, but the number of people who -insisted- that it wasn't once the conversation about it got loud verified that it actually was. the best way to confirm that toxic PRIVLAJ is in the air is to criticize it and see how many people dismiss you, and how much rage they show doing so. Roguey is good at exposing that.

To learn the pre-history, search Roguey's previous posts for Josh Sawyer references, discover like a billion of them, and then read them until you grow bored of them. And then turn to the million PoE posts and read those until you grow bored of that. And then you will be caught up.

 

[crawlkill]

I like to imagine there's a group of oppressed tumblrmensches somewhere out there who call themselves chancegendered. As in, they flip a coin each morning to determine what gender they are.

did you make that up on the spot because while somewhat unkind that is fucking hilarious

[To learn the pre-history, search Roguey's previous posts for Josh Sawyer references, discover like a billion of them, and then read them until you grow bored of them. And then turn to the million PoE posts and read those until you grow bored of that. And then you will be caught up.

I've seen a lot of it. Maybe I don't read the forums often enough to have become utterly sick of it. like I said...I'd be more tired of it if not for all the people who complain about it, who inherently (by being more than one person) create a larger log of backscroll. my sympathy for one person complaining about the totally misogynist-etcetera nature of the gaming industry is enhanced by a bunch of people saying that person should shut up, even though I have sympathy for their being tired of hearing about it, too. I'm tired of hearing about it, but I'm also tired of it being -true,- and as long as it's true, my tired-of-hearing-about-it-ness does not signify. it needs to and will be talked about until it stops.

and seriously, saying "the grotesque fungus woman shouldn't've been made hot" is not a strong political statement.

 

[Infinitron]

crawlkill Roguey's feminist/SJW schtick is just a sideshow. Most people on the Codex realized that long ago and quit responding to it. There aren't even that many comments on that aspect of the article ITT.

If you want to white knight for Roguey, you should find a better reason (and there are better reasons).

 

[crawlkill]

There aren't even that many comments on that aspect of the article ITT.

well they were the comments I was responding to? I'm sorry I did not respond to the majority of the comments

"old RPGs often have boring, meaningless combat and either famously good or notoriously awful writing" seems like the sideshow to me, whatever the intent is

 

[Infinitron]

"old RPGs often have boring, meaningless combat and either famously good or notoriously awful writing" seems like the sideshow to me, whatever the intent is

Consider this: Roguey speaks like a feminist/SJW, concerned with the portrayal of women, non-whites, and such.

And yet, all three of his reviews have been about tactical dungeon crawls. He seems to have little interest in talking about games where the portrayal of characters is actually supposed to matter.

I mean, Icewind Dale and Temple of Elemental Evil ain't exactly your typical Tumblr/Borderhouse material.

 

[crawlkill]

I mean, Icewind Dale and Temple of Elemental Evil ain't exactly your typical Tumblr/Borderhouse material.

I'm not sure what else to say to this than "so?" there's nowhere where being a shithat about women is "okay." this isn't the boys' treehouse. if that's something you're interested in, it makes sense to comment on it when you're examining something that drew your interest for other reasons.

I play Bloodlines because it has fantastic dialogue and great art design. I feel weird about it because the women are all sex objects. those things can both be true simultaneously. you don't have to be an energetic social justice warrior--a state of being I see typified as being obsessed with being angry and assigning blame--to acknowledge that shit.

I have no idea what Roguey's intent is, and I don't really care. I'm responding to the article and to people who respond to it. it's a forum. that's what it's for. if Roguey thinks he's trolling somebody by making valid points about hot fungus women, well, I wish more trolls were like him.

 

[Infinitron]

I guess that Roguey is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[SuicideBunny]

He seems to have little interest in talking about games where the portrayal of characters is actually supposed to matter.

you could also say that he plays games where you can easily make powerful women and non-whites (depending on portrait options) without having to put up with developer idiocy.

 

[set]

I like the one-line jab at Bloodlines with no substantial statement to even put some weight into your words. Was that even necessary? What you said -- It's not even a statement, it's just trash talking Troika's work; their best work. Bloodlines has nothing to do with ToEE, it bares how many similarities with the game? Other than it being made by Troika? Get a grip Roguey. It's nice you read the original module and made some concrete comparison there, but the rest of your article reads like gospel. It's not nearly analytical enough to be newsworthy. But, at least it's more analytical than your usual posts.

It'd help if it weren't so obvious you're ridiculously biased. It'd help if it seemed like you were actually trying to be partisan, in your write up. But you just come across as a Troika-hating dick.