Editorial RPG Codex Retrospective: Roguey dismantles white privilege in Tim Cain's Temple of Elemental Evil

[DefJam101]

Responding to Roguey's troll. I can't believe you quoted this raving lunatic:

1. This statement is just too convoluted to respond to. I'm missing the context.
2. This guy needs a tin foil hat. What does this even mean?
3. Again, out of context. Orcs are traditionally described as brain-dead brutes -- basically, I think it comes from our concept of the Barbarians, which comes from Roman times. The west has probably always had some stigma against them, since they were the ones that "ended western civilization" for some hundreds of years. I honestly don't get the problem here.
4. So what? If you have a smaller brain, you're less intelligent. I do agree, and even recall what this guy's talking about, but the point is to create an interesting game that is balanced. If all races have the same stat potentials, it's less interesting. The end.
5. ??? Talk about a sweeping comment aimed at anything writing anything fantasy-related. Grow up, find a job, and maybe try writing, yourself. Also, stop forcing your opinions on authors - the only way we can progress as a culture is by exploring race and class in our literature; if that means we have to be offensive or brutish in our writing sometimes, so bet it.
6. I can concede that it would be interesting to play a retarded person in a serious way, in an RPG. But, the tone of Fallout (and those other games) really did not allow for this. Get real! You have mutants and aliens and nuclear wars, people who are genuinely uneducated and grow up in the rough wilderness or in "backward times". I think Fallout and other CRPGs in general are very light-hearted with its "low intelligence" options, or at least, of the dark humor variety. This isn't reading rainbow where we need to respect people, it's a space to do fun, stupid shit.
7. You can interpret anything in any way you want. This doesn't mean anything, though I accept it is one interpretation of that quest line. Honestly, you could interpret it to mean people in the city are behaving without morals and are dying of their sexual promuscity with Jezebel. It's somewhat analogus to aids, but there's nothing "queery" about it, considering both men and women are infected by it and it's being spread by more people than Jezebel (other vampires, other humans). It presents the infected in a forgiving, pitiful light, making you sympathetic (usually) to them. So if they are queer, I fail to see how this means we can interpret the quest to be "queer shaming" or whatever buzzword. The only evil person in this questline you kill, besides Brother Kanker, is Jezebel.
8. These people represent the evilness of the city, the decay of morals and the rampant spread of crime. It's late at night, very late, where only the most desperate of people linger. It would have been nice to have a homeless or two be a bit wiser, and I agree that all of them are presented to be dumb and oafish, but the game isn't too focused on the plight of the humans -- infact, I'd argue it's meant to be slanted to let you roleplay one of the vampire races better. Vampires are fighting to keep their humanity, but humans have become twisted and ugly in many ways and it's not exactly intended you sympathize with them. In VTMB, a main conflict as a vampire is remaining human -- but how can you do that when you yourself or humans themselves are depraved? Clearly, the author here doesn't dwell too deeply, or even question their own biases. It does have its moments, there is at least one homeless man who fortells the end of the world - who truly knows what's coming, he seems pretty wise, is batshit crazy.
9. ??? It's "devoid of empathy" if you ignore the quest where you save the Gargoyle, save Heather, aid the tormented Malkavian, defend the neonate vampire popstar. Also, vampires don't have souls, so I fail to see why the game should be about empathy.
10. SJW spergs want every story to cater to social and political biases. They want a gray world where everyone is just like them. They are judgmental, shallow, dim-witted, conservative, and insecure.

There's scarcely any VTMB criticism here. It's not a perfect game, but nothing here even scratches the surface of what's actually wrong with it. What it does do right, it exels at.

All of the female characters in VTMB are extremely empowered. Most of them are untouchable, powerful, and scheming. You can also play as a woman yourself, if you so incline, and be a lesbian queer weirdo to boot.

Meanwhile, at Roguey's house:

 

[set]

I know it's a troll. But Roguey must at least be 25% serious. How else would you willingly post that?

 

[SuicideBunny]

Come now. I didn't write her. The fact that she's defined as a plant creature is just what she is. EDIT: and an Outsider. Can't forget that.

ah, sorry, i assumed you derped out and forgot how stupid dnd can be.

 

[Black]

Responding to Roguey's troll. I can't believe you quoted this raving lunatic:

1. This statement is just too convoluted to respond to. I'm missing the context.
2. This guy needs a tin foil hat. What does this even mean?
3. Again, out of context. Orcs are traditionally described as brain-dead brutes -- basically, I think it comes from our concept of the Barbarians, which comes from Roman times. The west has probably always had some stigma against them, since they were the ones that "ended western civilization" for some hundreds of years. I honestly don't get the problem here.
4. So what? If you have a smaller brain, you're less intelligent. I do agree, and even recall what this guy's talking about, but the point is to create an interesting game that is balanced. If all races have the same stat potentials, it's less interesting. The end.
5. ??? Talk about a sweeping comment aimed at anything writing anything fantasy-related. Grow up, find a job, and maybe try writing, yourself. Also, stop forcing your opinions on authors - the only way we can progress as a culture is by exploring race and class in our literature; if that means we have to be offensive or brutish in our writing sometimes, so bet it.
6. I can concede that it would be interesting to play a retarded person in a serious way, in an RPG. But, the tone of Fallout (and those other games) really did not allow for this. Get real! You have mutants and aliens and nuclear wars, people who are genuinely uneducated and grow up in the rough wilderness or in "backward times". I think Fallout and other CRPGs in general are very light-hearted with its "low intelligence" options, or at least, of the dark humor variety. This isn't reading rainbow where we need to respect people, it's a space to do fun, stupid shit.
7. You can interpret anything in any way you want. This doesn't mean anything, though I accept it is one interpretation of that quest line. Honestly, you could interpret it to mean people in the city are behaving without morals and are dying of their sexual promuscity with Jezebel. It's somewhat analogus to aids, but there's nothing "queery" about it, considering both men and women are infected by it and it's being spread by more people than Jezebel (other vampires, other humans). It presents the infected in a forgiving, pitiful light, making you sympathetic (usually) to them. So if they are queer, I fail to see how this means we can interpret the quest to be "queer shaming" or whatever buzzword. The only evil person in this questline you kill, besides Brother Kanker, is Jezebel.
8. These people represent the evilness of the city, the decay of morals and the rampant spread of crime. It's late at night, very late, where only the most desperate of people linger. It would have been nice to have a homeless or two be a bit wiser, and I agree that all of them are presented to be dumb and oafish, but the game isn't too focused on the plight of the humans -- infact, I'd argue it's meant to be slanted to let you roleplay one of the vampire races better. Vampires are fighting to keep their humanity, but humans have become twisted and ugly in many ways and it's not exactly intended you sympathize with them. In VTMB, a main conflict as a vampire is remaining human -- but how can you do that when you yourself or humans themselves are depraved? Clearly, the author here doesn't dwell too deeply, or even question their own biases. It does have its moments, there is at least one homeless man who fortells the end of the world - who truly knows what's coming, he seems pretty wise, is batshit crazy.
9. ??? It's "devoid of empathy" if you ignore the quest where you save the Gargoyle, save Heather, aid the tormented Malkavian, defend the neonate vampire popstar. Also, vampires don't have souls, so I fail to see why the game should be about empathy.
10. SJW spergs want every story to cater to social and political biases. They want a gray world where everyone is just like them. They are judgmental, shallow, dim-witted, conservative, and insecure.

There's scarcely any VTMB criticism here. It's not a perfect game, but nothing here even scratches the surface of what's actually wrong with it. What it does do right, it exels at.

All of the female characters in VTMB are extremely empowered. Most of them are untouchable, powerful, and scheming. You can also play as a woman yourself, if you so incline, and be a lesbian queer weirdo to boot.

I sometimes post rage-inducing bullshit but you... why would you do such a thing?

 

[SuicideBunny]

Also, vampires don't have souls, so I fail to see why the game should be about empathy.

wat? wod vampires have souls and auras. diablerie is pretty much soul draining.

 

[crawlkill]

you can't finish bloodlines unpached or unedited. it's not possible.

I bought it on release day and completed it without issue. Can't remember if I patched it or not before finishing, but I did play it pretty promptly, so if it does absolutely mandate patching, at least the patch happened in short order.

 

[dukeofwhales]

Responding to Roguey's troll. I can't believe you quoted this raving lunatic:
[stuff]

I assume you realise these are supposed to be read in reverse order (as is the way with Twitter). It makes it something of a coherent argument that way. Much more coherent than your response, anyway.

 

[Goat Pervertor]

Rougey! This has gone on for long enough. Now i am not knowleagable about RPGS as you or many others on this "site"- my first rpg was Kotor 2 and the only board game i ever played was Monopoly.

But even i know this much

when you play a game with 6 controlable caracters then that game MUST be turn based. This is a biologcial fact. Aand i have explained WHY in a thread i made here some time ago called - PLANESCAPE TORMENT VS RIDDICK where i exposed PST as a giant failure... But sadly it was not aproved. While Rogueys thread gets a headline. Oh Codex

I dont mind. Be lame! But i will not tollerate slamming Tim Cain on the front page! And that is the only reason i will help Codex to stop being shit. But first something about

1.THE TB VS RTWP HOLY WAR

Ever since BG there is a great battle betwen TB and RTWP fans. But the truth is that TB won even before the battle began. BECAUSE
in old RPG games in which you control a lot of PCs that can do a lot of stuff TB combat was used not because there was a limit in tech but because there was a limit in peoples BRAINS. Because the human brain cant proces that amount of info IN REAL TIME. RTWP in such a game MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL. For example

DOOM was real time and first person because one player controls one guy - TOEE is turn based and iso because one player controls 6 guys. Makes sense to me!

TB needs no other argument than this - it is a question of human anetomy. And everyone who has ever pressed UNPAUSE in a IE game knows this BANAL FACT. These games are simply not made for real humans to inerface with. And yet people keep making RTWP games! WTF!?!?! So i decided to investigate this mistery and as it turns out the Infinity Engine was

'' originally developed by BioWare for a prototype RTS game codenamed Battleground Infinity, which was ultimately re-engineered to become the first installment of the Baldur's Gate series.''

So that explains it. It was all just a fluke! They were making an RTS then swithced to RPG and we got BG an obviosly badly designed game whit missing TB component. But for some reason (BECAUSE IT SOLD WELL) they didnt corect this the second time. And it also spawnd a bunch of clones. And today 15 years since THE MISTAKE people are making Kikstarted projects where the mistake is THE FEATURE! Bahahaahaa!! Instead of correcting it! What a world we are living in... I blame capitalism

So there you have it. The TB vs RTWp debate is actualy not a debate. RTWP is FUNDAMENTALLY SHIT and all RTWP games are badly designed games that only confused people can like.




ROUND 2!

About the Tim Cain quote at the end.
This is the full quote
1.
"Why did you choose to make the combat turn-based? Do you think this will be a disadvantage in terms of building interest and awareness?
Tim Cain: I don't think we ever even considered making Temple of Elemental Evil real-time. D&D is a turn-based game. All of its rules are designed for turn-based play. The spells, the feats, the skills, these all mention rounds and initiative and other turn-based statistics. The sheer amount of effort to convert it to real-time would effectively invent a new game system, and what is the point of using D&D rules if you are just going to change its basic tenets? No. We decided to make a D&D game, D&D is turn-based, and that was that."

Now even though i love Tim and his games you can see here that at the time he too didnt understand this. Instead he does TB because of basicaly tradition. He does it because thats how it was always done, not because of the REASON why it was done that way. But nevertheless, even thoug he thoreticaly misunderstands this, practicaly he does the right thing - TURN BASED COMBAT. He was a true comrade where it mattered.

"And now, ever so appropriately, he's working for someone who lead designed a better D&D game than he did. This is for the best, considering he still believes that the only problem with ToEE is the writing."

And that someone is Josh Sawyer i pressume. The man who is going to fix RPGs. Ummm... I cant speak of his work since i never actualy played any of his games. And no wonder - they were all RTWP! IWD, IWD2, NWN2, NWN2 expansions and now finally POE. It seems that the man has made a whole carrear out of this histiorical mistake.
The closest thing he ever came to making a TB game is New Vegas... A frist person SHOOTER. TURN BASED COMBAT IN A FPS

Goddamnit!!! Why is everything so upside down

Josh! You are using the wrong tool. Its like using a chainsaw for slicing bread instead of a knife. Its just not practical! Sure It can be done but the result will be a mess. And it will always have that smell. So what you need to do is to learn some proper table maneers

Or he can take his own advice seriosly


"Pretty much all games get it wrong."

"Honestly, I think it's really sad that RPGs essentially get a pass on having fundamentally junk core gameplay. And yes, I do consider combat to be a core gameplay element of most RPGs."

"An awesome game with a crappy ruleset would be a better game if it had a better ruleset. Again, why grit your teeth and accept fundamentally dumb systems and their dumb adaptations into different media when such things clearly could be designed and executed better?" -... I know why! Its because it sells and thats the only reason. But its not a good reason.

And thaat concludes my destruction of Roguey/Josh/RTWP

IT IS FINALLY OVER

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

you can't finish bloodlines unpached or unedited. it's not possible.

I bought it on release day and completed it without issue. Can't remember if I patched it or not before finishing, but I did play it pretty promptly, so if it does absolutely mandate patching, at least the patch happened in short order.

The game had indeed one major gamestopping bug at release. It was quickly adresses with a hotfix and that was the end of the story. Of course Troika haters gonna hate and bring up this minor point over and over again.

 

[Sensuki]

you can't finish bloodlines unpached or unedited. it's not possible.

I bought it on release day and completed it without issue. Can't remember if I patched it or not before finishing, but I did play it pretty promptly, so if it does absolutely mandate patching, at least the patch happened in short order.

Excuse me, I never said this. It was some other guy.

 

[ben_reck]

Now, I wouldn't go straight to decaf if I were you but you might consider meeting it halfway.

I know you think you've stumbled on to something with your 6 -> 1 and 1 -> 6 discourse. But, then again, I kinda think a decent sergeant or lieutenant can be pretty effective giving orders to more than himself. The human brain can handle more than one object at a time.

But, dude, I'm turn-based for life as well so I sympathize.

 

[Minttunator]

I've only been around the Codex for a few years, but in my view Roguey has gone from an entertaining - if sometimes annoying - contrarian to a complete and utter shitposter. Which is sad, as xe is clearly not unintelligent and could use xir powers for good (i.e. writing quality posts). Even more sad is the fact that everybody - including myself - keeps replying to xem, so there's no end in sight. All in all, it's tragic.

 

[King Arthur]

epic

 

[Luzur]

I know it's a troll. But Roguey must at least be 25% serious. How else would you willingly post that?

i dunno, kinda hard to figure him/her out just like that, just another modern he/she/thing too much occupied with feminist/leftist make-believe problems in videogames. *shrugs*

 

[TheGreatOne]

Why the fuck did you publish this travesty on the front page when that other guys DeSu2 review was turned down? It's not a CRPG (neither is Sanitarium nor Dark Souls), but at least that game was (and wipes the floor with most modern TB RPGs/tactics games difficulty wise) where as this is

 

[Roguey]

I'm going to guess that it has everything to do with RPG Codex being a site for role playing games that can be played on a personal computer without the use of an emulator.

The jrpg Bee reviewed can be purchased on Steam.

 

[TheGreatOne]

That doesn't turn Sanitarium into a RPG, and it's a stupid policy anyway because it means RPGs exclusive to Apple 2, C64, MSX(2), Amiga, Atari ST etc are off limits despite being CRPGs. I'm sure what ever JRPG is up on steam cant hold a candle to DeSu2's combat system and encounters (or even C&C). Hell, most (modern) CRPGs available on Steam don't have as fun and challenging battles as that game, Original Sin included (*).
* You do have more spells to use, but having a spell limit of 3/3/1 actually makes battles much more strategic since you have to plan your routes and teams before each battle, where as battles in DOS become very formulaic and easy after Cyseal, which can't be said for DeSu2, although there are some very strong combinations in that game like multi hit/+stone/grimoire and +5 agility or grimoire+ on a high agility character.

 

[Fairfax]

Troika was full of sexists and racists who deserved to lose their jobs btw. They came across as one of the last refuges of 90s brogrammer culture; a middlebrow 3D Realms.

What the fuck?

I'm glad you've changed.

 

[Sacred82]

If you find womyn sexually attractive and are afraid of gang violence, you deserve to lose your job, your partner, and have your testicles eaten by cancer.

 

[Roguey]

A little too Lesi there, 2014 Roguey.

I still stand by "Troika as middlebrow 3D Realms" though.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

A little too Lesi there, 2014 Roguey.

I still stand by "Troika as middlebrow 3D Realms" though.

Damn, you’ve really mellowed out.

Edit: Seriously, when did you stop smashing the patriarchy? This is just dispiriting.

 

[Fairfax]

I still stand by "Troika as middlebrow 3D Realms" though.

How so? Troika was still influenced by their 90s nerd culture roots, but nothing in their games resembled 3D Realms stuff.

 

[Roguey]

Edit: Seriously, when did you stop smashing the patriarchy? This is just dispiriting.

Not too long after this actually. Gamergate and some revelations about Lesi made me realize feminism/"social justice" is a fraudulent ideology pushed by selfish hypocrites who don't follow their own rules.

How so? Troika was still influenced by their 90s nerd culture roots, but nothing in their games resembled 3D Realms stuff.

Crass content/humor. The option to fuck a sheep and comments made to a female PC in Arcanum, turning Zuggtmoy into a babe, Bloodlines being one of the sleaziest games of all time (though it's seemingly a completely accurate depiction of LA).

 

[Fairfax]

Crass content/humor. The option to fuck a sheep and comments made to a female PC in Arcanum, turning Zuggtmoy into a babe, Bloodlines being one of the sleaziest games of all time (though it's seemingly a completely accurate depiction of LA).

I still think it's far from 3D Realms games, which were built on stuff like that.

comments made to a female PC in Arcanum

?

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Edit: Seriously, when did you stop smashing the patriarchy? This is just dispiriting.

Not too long after this actually. Gamergate and some revelations about Lesi made me realize feminism/"social justice" is a fraudulent ideology pushed by selfish hypocrites who don't follow their own rules.

I didn’t realize Requires Hate had such a big presence here, but really? Any ideology looks bad when you’re focused on its craziest, least scrupulous adherents, and all ideologies are pushed by selfish hypocrites. Requires Hate is to feminism as, say, Rasputin is to the Orthodox Church. As for gamergate, media criticism tends to attract the dregs of any particular movement.

I don’t really have any dog in this fight, but from a purely aesthetic angle, you had a good schtick going. Sawyerism just doesn’t have the same stylistic punch as feminism.

Oh, and you were right about Troika being brotown USA, but for most of us that was part of the appeal. Even for someone who finds explicit sexual stuff distasteful, how can you not love belle the sheep? That’s just being a prude.