Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Preview RPG Codex Preview: No Truce With The Furies

Discussion in 'RPG News & Content' started by Infinitron, Mar 3, 2017.

  1. Prime Juntagender: ⚧ Arcane

    Prime Junta
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Parrots:
    4,610
    Click here and disable ads!
    I had a couple of failed (red) checks with my time in the game. The outcome was that I didn't get what I wanted, but something else happened instead, and in both cases that something else was funny, and it had consequences down the line.

    The problem with T:ToN isn't that it's no-gameplay. (Also it's not no-gameplay, it's bad-gameplay; I'm suffering through one of those interminable Crises right now. Typing this as the enemy does its thing.) It's that the content in it is dull. This is emphatically not the case with No Truce.

    (But no, this is clearly not a game for grogs. It's an adventure-RPG, not a tactical-combat-RPG like most of them.)

    Edit: annnnnd... I failed in that crisis, and it was one of the ones that actually kill you when you fail... and I failed it because I misclicked when tabbing back to game from typing this message, which moved my toon to a spot that got him killed instead of the one that would have ended the crisis successfully. Now I have to slog through it again. I'm starting to hate that game.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
    • Brofist Brofist x 5
    ^ Top  
  2. Marat Sargender: ⚧ ZA/UM Developer

    Marat Sar
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Parrots:
    26
    Pretty much all of the above.

    1. The world is small. It doesn't feel like that, though -- not to me at least. We have the 4th dimension in there too, characters appear and things happen depending on what day it is. (We have a time of day system that didn't factor into Prime Junta's short play-through). So very concentrated. But also small, yes.
    2. The reactivity will be less than people wish it would be. Always the case, I'm afraid. At least for me it is.
    3. Almost none of us have families and about half (the leads especially) have also become teetotalers. I for one am barely a corporeal entity any more.

    All valid points. This is why we have two types of checks -- active and passive. To get the best of both worlds. In No Truce, only about one in twenty is active, actually. The other 19 are passive and the player never knows he failed. Feels natural, uninterrupted. In the 5% that we need him to know (mostly because it's exciting, a major story beat -- but also to communicate the rules) we use active checks. To solve all the savescumming and so on... informing the player of failure -- all the problems people have brought up in our thread + the ones you bring up here -- you really need two types of checks. Then employ them as you would employ literary devices.

    The checks are ultimately story devices for us. We use everything we can to bring the text to life. Active rolls -- as in a tabletop setting -- can be a nice respite from the seamless, natural storytelling passives can give you. Active checks also give the min-maxers something to do, adding some of that beloved game everyone is so worried about. They add light combat-like gameplay into the dialogues, even the non violent ones. And in the violent situations active checks are especially nice. (Another thing we didn't fully get to show PJ)

    There's an interplay between the two that I think is at a good place right now. I'm not worried about that side of the game. The time of day system, for example, is a much more scarier problem to me. Takes a lot of time to get it feeling right.

    I wanted to add to Kasparov's answer that

    1. Clothes are horror. We want to keep people commenting on them to a minimum, but Fallout 1 level reactivity should be achievable. Story reasons dictate going undercover is not possible.

    2. Only the beginnings of dialogues are voice acted so you'd get a feel for the characters voice. From there on it only makes reading slower, so no VO. An exception is our dream sequences which I want to be totally voiced because there's less picture and the text is... different let's say.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
    • Brofist Brofist x 7
    • Prestigious Prestigious x 3
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Salute Salute x 1
    ^ Top  
  3. Make America Great Again Infinitrongender: ⚧ I post news Patron

    Infinitron
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Parrots:
    65,679
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Marat Sar This game is going to lose sales because people assume police procedural = procedurally generated
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
    • WTF am I reading WTF am I reading x 1
    ^ Top  
  4. Kev Inklinegender: ⚧ Arcane

    Kev Inkline
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2015
    Parrots:
    1,995
    Location:
    The homeland of primordial megafauna
    A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Hey Marat Safin, are there going to be Steam achievements?

    I think there are plenty of Codexers wanting to have some Advanced Race Theory thingy unlocked.

    Personally I'd go for the feminist stuff.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    ^ Top  
  5. *-*/\--/\~gender: ⚧ Learned

    *-*/\--/\~
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2014
    Parrots:
    372
    How the hell is asking about someone's music taste fascist? :D
     
    • retadred retadred x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Racist Racist x 1
    ^ Top  
  6. Lurker Kinggender: ⚧ Self-Ejected The Real Fanboy

    Self-Ejected
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Parrots:
    1,865,419
    The achievement is perfect to track how much content the player is missing.
     
    ^ Top  
  7. Zombragender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

    Zombra
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2004
    Parrots:
    5,275
    Location:
    Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Wow, a thoughtful application of VA. This sounds perfect and coincides exactly with how I play through game dialogues. I always listen to the first couple lines then start clicking through as I read faster to get to the point. Well done.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    ^ Top  
  8. Marat Sargender: ⚧ ZA/UM Developer

    Marat Sar
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Parrots:
    26
    Actually, I think I agree. We're gonna have to change it to "cop show RPG" or something. "Buddy cop RPG"?, "Detective role playing game"? "Detective RPG"?

    Such a pity. Police procedural role playing game sounds so much better. Sometimes I wish the eugenics movement had succeeded in creating a more genre savvy audience.
     
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 3
    • Prestigious x 2
    • Funny x 1
    • decline x 1
    • Salute x 1
    ^ Top  
  9. Projasgender: ⚧ Learned Patron

    Projas
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Parrots:
    585
    Location:
    Best Republic
    Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    All gonna be balanced out by furfags thinking this is a furry game, don't you worry.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    ^ Top  
  10. Prime Juntagender: ⚧ Arcane

    Prime Junta
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Parrots:
    4,610
    No Truce With The Hill Street Blues?
     
    ^ Top  
  11. I'm With Her SausageInYourFacegender: ⚧ for prison Arcane Patron

    SausageInYourFace
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2013
    Parrots:
    2,118
    Location:
    In your face
    Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    :D Holy shit, bro..

    Detective role playing game
    sounds pretty good by the way, better than police or cop RPG because it emphasizes the actual detective work element.

    Cops or police you think of police academy or shit like that, buddy cop movie, you think of Lethal Weapon or some such..

    Show Spoiler
     
    ^ Top  
  12. Zombragender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

    Zombra
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2004
    Parrots:
    5,275
    Location:
    Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    I'd think that would increase sales. People who like police procedurals already know what the term means, so they will buy the game. And then people who want a procedurally generated game will buy it too because they are dumb. Anyone who complains about it on the internet will get bounced down hard by people saying "Look it up, stupid". Everybody wins.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    ^ Top  
  13. Make America Great Again Infinitrongender: ⚧ I post news Patron

    Infinitron
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Parrots:
    65,679
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    BTW fix your title! http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?account/personal-details
     
    ^ Top  
  14. AwesomeButtongender: ⚧ Cut a deal with the authorities Patron

    AwesomeButton
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2014
    Parrots:
    2,754
    Location:
    At large
    PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    So, it will be a crime story with multiple possible endings and a main character who starts out at a pretty low point of his ilfe but has a chance to get better. Sounds like the noir detective RPG I've always wanted, with a characteristic visual style and in an unique setting. At least that's how I imagine the media would phrase it. Definetly use the word "noir" if it's applicable, I would say. It's an often used search term/tag.

    I hope it turns a profit! One thing is for sure - with your graphics, you cover the segment of people who are ready to buy because "it's an isometric RPG and has pretty screenshots and trailer".

    Excellent. Finally, someone who understands the purpose of voiced dialogue in isometric RPGs.
    :greatjob:

    Also, kudos for the bravery to implement time as a factor in quests!
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  15. Excidium IIgender: ⚧ Self-Ejected

    Self-Ejected
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2015
    Parrots:
    1,866,260
    Location:
    Third World
    clicking on shit is not gameplay, it's interface. I haven't quite grasped how exactly this plays but if it's like tworment where there's no problem solving, no learning process idk where's the gameplay nigga. Exhausting dialogue options a puzzle makes not.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  16. Kasparovgender: ⚧ ZA/UM Developer

    Kasparov
    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2016
    Parrots:
    427
    Location:
    Martinaise
    Then it is a good thing we have a good interface. The difficult bit is that people have subjective preferences when it comes to that, but you can please only so many people...

    What's your favourite game, man?
     
    ^ Top  
  17. KILLER BEARgender: ⚧ Educated

    KILLER BEAR
    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2016
    Parrots:
    133
    Quite the opposite, really. Many people who are interested in a story-focused detective RPG (but they don't know the term "police procedural") may lost interest if they get the impression that the game is procedurally generated (unsuitable design for plot-heavy games). Just think of the Codex reaction if the game was going to be randomized.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • meh meh x 1
    ^ Top  
  18. Fenixgender: ⚧ Liturgist

    Fenix
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Parrots:
    2,429
    Location:
    Russia atchoum!
    I thought long before TToN faoled that they are different.

    We still have a chances, because it exist today - parents design their future child (which inevitable will be used as cornerstone for new feodal aristocracy of 21 century).
     
    ^ Top  
  19. Lurker Kinggender: ⚧ Self-Ejected The Real Fanboy

    Self-Ejected
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Parrots:
    1,865,419
    I think you are right, but it’s curious because in PS:T some bad choices could put you in some difficult situations, e.g., you can be cursed by Deionarra, or Reekwind, which makes you hiccup non-stop and unable to use any spells! You also have some puzzles, for instance, at the Brothel for Slating Intellectual Lusts, etc. So it is far from this linear boring click fest that is ToN. Another example is “King of Dragon Pass”. The game has pure text-adventure interface, but you need to think about your choices before you click, etc. So you are right, but nothing they said is inconsistent with this belief.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
    ^ Top  
  20. scurry offgender: ⚧ Magister

    scurry off
    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Parrots:
    1,281
    Location:
    Bavaria
    One of the finer examples of dialogue being an integral part of gameplay that can freely fuck you over was Dead Money - sure, you could've passed that suspiciously easy Barter check in a conversation with Domino, but he resented you for being a smart-ass, altering a certain level design several hours later, once you confront him in the casino

    It's important to have players give a shit about dialogue choices and have them understand their own intentions behind passing skill checks if you introduce branching dialogue in your game, otherwise it's just a waste of labour and maybe you should've strayed towards organic storytelling instead - it's cheaper and more intellectually stimulating
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Prestigious Prestigious x 1
    ^ Top  
  21. EShgender: ⚧ Arcane

    ESh
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2015
    Parrots:
    987
    While your talk of Passive and Active Checks is interesting, you didn't adress any of my points.

    This has not changed because the player is unaware of the outcome. Dice Roll Checks will not always be representative of the character attributes, and even if you try to hide this from the player, it is a design flaw.

    Neither this has changed. Your active checks still promote the mentality of "Winning is Fun", your passive checks act identically as they would if they were threshold checks, except with inherent flaws explained in the first section, which you didn't respond to.

    It would be nice if you took your time to actually adress to each of these points, and clearify why you chose to use Dice Roll Checks in dialogue to begin with.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • meh meh x 1
    • Shit Shit x 1
    ^ Top  
  22. Lurker Kinggender: ⚧ Self-Ejected The Real Fanboy

    Self-Ejected
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Parrots:
    1,865,419
    Games are attempts to surpass unnecessary challenges. You won when you surpass a challenge. Winning is fun it’s the very bedrock of gaming, there is nothing wrong with that.
     
    ^ Top  
  23. EShgender: ⚧ Arcane

    ESh
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2015
    Parrots:
    987
    You misunderstand me, the point is that it is contradictive to the developers' own design philosophy (that many dialogue checks are designed so that even when failing them you get an outcome that is entertaining or might bring the story forward):

     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  24. Zombragender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

    Zombra
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2004
    Parrots:
    5,275
    Location:
    Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Uh, no they don't. When failure also has a fun outcome, the player has the opportunity to accept it that you don't see in most games. Most games, failure is all penalty, all denial; it gives you no reason not to reload and try again. Here, failure lets you see cool story branches unavailable through success. In short, there is an incentive to "fail". Sure, some people will save scum to make sure their character "succeeds" at everything he tries, but those people are assholes who missed the point.

    Will you miss the point?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • retadred retadred x 1
    ^ Top  
  25. Lurker Kinggender: ⚧ Self-Ejected The Real Fanboy

    Self-Ejected
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Parrots:
    1,865,419
    I think they should find a middle ground, because not allowing the player to fuck it up is an extreme and makes the game pointless. For instance, they could allow the player to make many mistakes, but the frustrations could add up to the point that the player could suffer mental diseases such as paranoia, depression, schizophrenia, etc., leading ultimately to death. This would fit nicely with the emphasis on the thoughts of your character. You can also create some scenarios resulting in the players’ death, for instance, you can be killed because people know you as a dirty copy or an easy mark, etc. In any case, they need to add venues for failure, otherwise it would be an interactive novel, not a game.
     
    • meh meh x 1
    ^ Top  

(buying stuff via the above buttons helps us pay the hosting bills, thanks!)