Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.
"This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
I don't understand why you would choose this as your critique. Those things are understood going in as the game professes to be "old school' and indeed touts the moniker as a point a of pride. What's more, you are writing a review that is largely going to read by people who are SYMPATHETIC to such old school (nostalgia?) principles. If you are going to argue that the game is antiquated I don't know who will disagree with you -- but in the process you side skirt the issue that a (small) subset of players would rather play a game like this. If that wasn't true, why would this game even exist let alone merit your time to write a review?
You're making a horrible correlation. Antiquated & old-school =/= having lackluster plot & quests. You can say that it was a common thing, but it isn't their defining feature or the reason they are remembered fondly today. Those ARE flaws, and have always been. You can open a CGW magazine from the 80's and constantly read about how lame is that most plots are just "kill the foozle", in Scorpia's famous words. Those were already flaws back then.
Besides, Xulima is not an antiquated game by any measure. If anything, it's one of the few games that actually takes mechanics and tries to push them forward, instead of just copying them.
And you are wrong. First you have missed my point (I use exaggeration openly to highlight the fact that you have done the same while trying to couch it in an appeal to the sympathies of a certain type of player who share your ideas (prejudices) of what constitutes a "real" RPG).
No, I did not. I used the KotC screenshot to show a game that clearly displays its complexity and mechanics, while pointing out that Xulima hides it. My words: "You'll never guess how complex and interesting the game is from looking at some screenshots."
Secondly, you spoke of being OBJECTIVE. Yes, you absolutely can make objective assessments of what players prefer.
That's good, because I never did that. ONCE AGAIN, I only used KOTC to show a game that you can understand clearly from a screenshot, while you can't do that with Xulima. If I did what you say, just show me where.
Now seriously, stop raging so hard and actually read things before posting.
If I understand correctly, you are equating raw verbiage with "nuance". I'm not interested in either in this case. You have a certain disposition that I think manifests as myopia and stilted logic -- it is not possible to finesse this trouble away. Its like insisting that you should pass an eye because you can recite the alphabet in French..backwards (now trying reading the letters on the chart forwards, in English)
This belief that tenure on an Internet forum gives weight to one opinion over another is laughable, sorry. Let's an idiot's ramblings fail on their own merits.
This belief that tenure on an Internet forum gives weight to one opinion over another is laughable, sorry. Let's an idiot's ramblings fail on their own merits.
It's not like that. When Jaesun and other posters do a join date quote, they're not usually doing it to say "this guy is a lowly newfag so his opinions don't matter". Rather, they're pointing out that the user's recent join date combined with his unusual belligerent attitude indicate that he's likely to be a troll/alt.
His current view on things is correct and others to be mistaken, irrespective of when that might be and how it may change in the future. As if his changed mind shifts the sands for all. What was, is no longer correct... what he is doing NOW is the new correct way.
This belief that tenure on an Internet forum gives weight to one opinion over another is laughable, sorry. Let's an idiot's ramblings fail on their own merits.
It's not like that. When Jaesun and other posters do a join date quote, they're not usually doing it to say "this guy is a lowly newfag so his opinions don't matter". Rather, they're pointing out that the user's recent join date combined with his unusual belligerent attitude indicate that he's likely to be a troll/alt.
Why is it a "flaw" that a game doesn't have an "epic story" and "epic Biowarian choice and consequences"? A game is always defined by its mechanics and levels, not by the pretentious fluff added to it. And there's nothing wrong with a "B-grade" story that doesn't take itself seriously, in fact that's what Wizardry and Might and Magic were. I welcome a game that harkens back to the former rather than "edgy" "moral" storylines that in the end are mostly gimmicks for larpers and people who feel "edgy". All PnP modules are ridiculous and unmemorable for the most part, none of them are about "edgy moral choices", they're about interactions with the mechanics and game world.
It reminds me of a thread that I coincidentally made exactly three years ago:
Lol, and "Josh Sawyer thinks Wizardry is not an RPG anymore", who the hell cares what this pretentious twat thinks?
RPGs are not about "choice and consequences" or "elegant quest" design or any such term, it is about the relationship between your character and the game world, which can be defined and deepened by a lot of things, and to be closer to a PnP game it needs to be closer to the quality and depth of its mechanics. Not by its "choice and consequences" or "story", it's always an afterthought and it doesn't add anything to the experience.
It reminds me of the replies you got on that thread.
If anything, Xulima's story play against the game. It's the only thing that force the game to be formulaic, that forces the player to kill 4 princes and 4 titans to purify 8 temples. Is not that the story isn't interesting by itself, it's worse: the story makes the game sounds boring. I may be doing interesting things, but the game's plot is going "1/8 Temples Purified".
That isn't quite my experience with the game's exploration; like I said in the preview, you can kill enemies and explore areas in various order as soon as you've gained a few levels. I think you're exaggerating.
The point is that the exploration is constantly halted due to impossibly powerful enemies blocking your way which you'd have no hope of vanquishing, and I feel it often serves to artificially augment the amounts of backtracking you are forced to do in order to progress. My guess is that this was done to limit the amounts of various environmental assets they'd have to do.
Instead they could have made more of them optional or avoidable, or to discourage progression simply make zones with much higher leveled enemies that would appear randomly, so the player would have more of a chance to traverse if he succeeded, kind of like Wizardry 8's Arnika road.
I feel this preview has increased my excitement for the game. I for one can't wait to "dungeon crawl" my way through a game reminiscent of my beloved classics of old... regardless of how cRPGs have evolved to today. I've got W2, PoE, D:OS, etc. for that. I look forward to a game like Xulima and thank Crooked Bee and felipepepe for an excellent preview. This (and other Codex previews/ reviews) put so-called game jornos to shame.
Roguey JE Sawyer is a talented dev and a good promoter in equal measure. Basically what every indie team wants (tend to prefer the Larian squad's opinion, though, they're a little more straightforward and consistent in what they convey).
I would like to touch briefly on a few points, from a development perspective. Xulima's story does have its share of climactic moments, however the manner in which those moments are presented will perhaps lead certain players to treat them as some sort of pun (?). Agree that this is a flaw of the presentation, but let's clarify one thing: presentation is the player's bridge to core design concepts. Basically, Xulima says "Okay, we'll attempt to build as much of this bridge as possible, but also ask the player to cross some of it".
Xulima attempts to keep the food ration and eat it at the same time i.e. it very much wishes to offer a complete RPG package, even if the NPCs and side-quests are minimalist (i.e. they are functional and relevant, less pre-occupied with fluff that won't impact long-term gameplay). Xulima is the result of inexperienced but passionate and dedicated work... the customized game engine/software shows a lot of promise, which means community feedback goes a long way towards taking full advantage of it
In conclusion, I think that if a player enjoys mythos, moral ambiguity and conspiracies, that player should find that Xulima's story holds together. It may be a bit stretched, it may be the 'reward' for a 'Defeat 8 bosses' kind of plot device... but it has enough substance to make you look forward to the next cutscene. Conceded, cutscenes being presented as mere lengthy NPC dialog exchanges is an issue, and that is being looked at.
I'm the only one who still enjoys minimal stories with one quest like:
Find the the eight pieces of the Holy Wand.
Kill the four icarnations of evil.
Kill the big dragon at deepest level of the dungeon.
One quest is enough for dungeon crawler CRPGs in the 80s, in the 90s and today.
NPC interaction is nice but completely optional: You can get the main quest from other information sources like reading a book at the beginning of the game.
Background story is nice too, but in a pure dungeon crawler CRPG you create your very own story/narrative by exploring and party interaction with the gameworld (influenced by stats and skills). You don't need dialog c&c, because every step in the dungeon, every pressed button to disable a trap, etc. is already a choice.
Games that provide such a "playground" are really cool CRPGs (Dungeon Master, Wizards and Warriors, Wizardry 1-5, MM 1-5, Knights of the Chalice, Legend of Grimrock...).
I'm the only one who still enjoys minimal stories with one quest like:
Find the the eight pieces of the Holy Wand.
Kill the four icarnations of evil.
Kill the big dragon at deepest level of the dungeon.
One quest is enough for dungeon crawler CRPGs in the 80s, in the 90s and today.
NPC interaction is nice but completely optional: You can get the main quest from other information sources like reading a book at the beginning of the game.
Background story is nice too, but in a pure dungeon crawler CRPG you create your very own story/narrative by exploring and party interaction with the gameworld (influenced by stats and skills). You don't need dialog c&c, because every step in the dungeon, every pressed button to disable a trap, etc. is already a choice.
Games that provide such a "playground" are really cool CRPGs (Dungeon Master, Wizards and Warriors, Wizardry 1-5, MM 1-5, Knights of the Chalice, Legend of Grimrock...).
And yet emo Codexers who are enamored with Fallout and Boringscape along with meaningless buzzwords like "quest design" and "choice and consequences" don't want to understand this simple truth. It's not like any game is going to be a storytelling device equal to a Dostoyevsky or a Balzac story. Some people really need to get off their pedestal.
Bearer of the curse Seek souls. Larger, more powerful souls.
Seek the king, that is the only way.
Lest this land swallow you whole... As it has so many others.
That's the kind of story I need from a game. Just let me explore, fight and loot, will ya?
I'm the only one who still enjoys minimal stories with one quest like:
Find the the eight pieces of the Holy Wand.
Kill the four icarnations of evil.
Kill the big dragon at deepest level of the dungeon.
One quest is enough for dungeon crawler CRPGs in the 80s, in the 90s and today.
NPC interaction is nice but completely optional: You can get the main quest from other information sources like reading a book at the beginning of the game.
Background story is nice too, but in a pure dungeon crawler CRPG you create your very own story/narrative by exploring and party interaction with the gameworld (influenced by stats and skills). You don't need dialog c&c, because every step in the dungeon, every pressed button to disable a trap, etc. is already a choice.
Games that provide such a "playground" are really cool CRPGs (Dungeon Master, Wizards and Warriors, Wizardry 1-5, MM 1-5, Knights of the Chalice, Legend of Grimrock...).
I don't disagree with you. But, again, my problem here is that it detracts from the game. Xulima would be a better game with no story. For example:
Why do you always have to have Gaulen in your party, instead of creating a full party? Because the story demands it. Or why you have to fight precisely 4 princes and 4 titans? The game has various other interesting enemies. You could have one of the temple keys hoarded by a dragon, robbed by a thieves guild, kept locked by a religious order, eaten by a sand worm, anything. But the fucking story demands it to be 4 princes and 4 titans.
Even for side-quests it's like that. The kill the witches quests is banal. Four times you'll go into a town, someone will say "we have a evil wicth", and you'll go to the forest, find her, kill her and go back to town to get your rewards. The fact that you always have to kill them is boring. You could kill one, the other offer you a quest, the other make a series of riddles that if you failed she would attack, but if you won she would give you a reward, etc... There was so much more that could be done. Hell, even simply having to find their hidden lairs, killing them and getting the "reward" from their chests on your own would be better than having a NPC ask you, point were she is and reward you every time.
Good arguments on both sides I think, however, if these quests are mirrored in several towns and supported simply by colour changed foes as described then it would be a good idea for the team to mix it up if there is time.
It's fine that some people don't care about the things Xulima doesn't focus on. I'm one of the biggest dungeon crawler fans on the Codex myself, and Xulima even adds some good exploration and resource management to the mix. However, the preview wasn't supposed to be aimed at just dungeon crawler or Might and Magic fans, so not pointing out that this is a "limited" kind of RPG compared to what some other people might expect would've been pretty narrow-minded.
Thanks for the preview Felipepepe and CrookedBee. We know you have played a lot of hours and we really appreciate it and there is a lot of feedback there. The conversation style is very original and enjoyable, great job!
Here go some points we would like to clarify:
About the presentation of the game: "Facebook game?"
We understand you were disappointed the first 5-10 minutes in the game and as the rest of old-school players, but that mini-tutorial that explain the main concepts of LoX is mandatory. With LoX, we intended to create a RPG as deep as the old-school classics but presented in a format that even casual gamers can play it. We have had some testers that have never played a RPG and they have played and enjoyed LoX thanks to that tutorial and in-game help and information messages. For us, one of the big flaws of old-school classics were their obscure presentations .
We all hate long tutorials and hand-holding bu,t this one only lasts 5 minutes and even you can die only by challenging the town guards ;o)
Secondary quests and NPCs interaction
This is not a problem of budget at all, indeed writing dialog and scripting missions are really easy and cheap to do with our game editor. If we have had more budget, we have focused in improving the graphics, and created cool cinematic sequences for the main plots, but the game-play would be the same. This is a game about exploration, building your party, and progressing in a story that deals about Gods and Humans, so worrying about the minor problems of the people in villages does not make sense for Gaulen, who has a divine mission he must accomplish it if he wants to save his land which is dying because of a war.
Not all RPGs need dozens of NPCs that tells you about their life and their problems. We wanted to focus in the main story and their main protagonists.
Here you have an article about Narrative & Quests:
The Story
This is the part that we cannot agree with you at all, and even less after reading the comments. Perhaps the problem and our fault is that the gameplay is eclipsing the main story and most people does not care about it bypassing the dialog part and over looking the story. We would love to have nice cinematic sequences for those moments to bring the intense that they deserve but that was out of the budget.
- Here you have an article in which we speak about the Story Vs Gameplay:
- And about the origin of the story:
In short, the story is much more complex that what you can think, it belongs to a big Mythology in which what Lords of Xulima tells is only a small fragment,
"Eradicate the evil that profanes the divine temples of the creators..." that is what Golot tells you in the beginning, and yes, it is your mission, it is simple, so simple like "Frodo take this ring and destroy it in the Mount Destiny". But the context is much more deeper.
Tell me:
Why did Golot choose you?
Why are the Lords of Xulima fighting each other?
Why is Rodinia dying?
What does mean the strange words from the Herald's of Yûl?
Why the impious princes allied with the Heralds?
What happened with their father Artherion?
Where do the Cursed Hounds come from?
Which is the role of the Titans?
What happened at the end of enconter with Khornil?
...
There are lots of subtle details that some people will find and will start to think which is the real story behind the Lords of Xulima. Even some of the events of the sequel (the next game) like
the death of the protagonist
are prophesied during this game...
We needed a 10 minutes cinematic to explain the end of the game, and even we will unveil much more about the story in the Mythology book we promised in KS and that we will be published very soon. There is no "good or bad "in this story, only different personalities that act coherently with their circumstances and context.
Gaulen is the protagonist and the fixed character because for Lox we wanted less dialog but really meaningful and intense, and we used the narration as resource to transmit better what Gaulen felt. Gaulen evolves as he advances in his divine mission until the end when
he believes he is almost a demigod.
Here is an example of the encounter of Gaulen with prince Nengorth when Gaulen reclaims the Key of Febret:
<NARRATOR>At the end of the great hall a proud figure, seated upon a throne, watches you arrogantly…
<NARRATOR>As he stands, you notice his towering height. Under his wavy brown hair, you catch a quick glimpse of his tranquil, dark eyes. His mouth is hardly visible under his mustache and beard. He seems young, but the look in his eyes reveals that he is much older than he appears.
<NARRATOR>You expect him to address you, but instead the Lord of Nabros stands watching you silently…
<NARRATOR>After a few tense moments, you finally decide to speak. But just as you are about to, his deep and heavy voice interrupts…
Lord_NengorthWho dares to address the Lord of Nabros, heir to the South-Eastern Kingdom, Protector of Velegarn, and Custodian of the Temple of Febret?
GaulenYou hold yourself in high esteem. But why do you leave off your other titles? Oppressor of the People? Killer of the Innocent and Ally of Darkness?
<NARRATOR>Nengorth, far from being offended by your words, answers with a smile.
<NARRATOR>Once again, he observes you silently… First he looks at your hands, still bloody from your last fight. Then he looks back at the guardians of the throne room that you left dead behind you.
<NARRATOR>Again, as you are about to speak, he interrupts just as you breathe in.
Lord_NengorthAnd tell me, how many have you killed to get to me? In your path to the throne room you have reaped the souls of many men along the way…
GaulenThat… is different… you and your soldiers are not innocent victims. You are the aggressors. You invaded Velegarn, killed the priestesses of Febret, and now you harbor in the temple a servant of darkness…
GaulenI tried to reach you peacefully, but you would not allow it and sent your soldiers to capture me.
Lord_NengorthSo, you feel you have the right to reap the souls of men, as long as your cause is justified?
Gaulen…yes, if the mission is just.
Lord_NengorthAnd… who decides if your mission is more just than mine?
GaulenMy mission is divine. It was entrusted to me by the Makers of the world…
Lord_NengorthAnd mine as well. And perhaps your Maker is more just than mine? Was it He who entrusted you to kill so many of your brothers in your efforts?
GaulenEnough! You are a servant of darkness, Nengorth! I have come for the Key of Febret. If you are not prepared to give it to me, then prepare yourself for the consequences!
<NARRATOR>The prince smiles complacently. As he looks at you with utter contempt, his fingers play with the key, which is on a chain that hangs around his neck. He observes you in silence…
GaulenANSWER ME NENGORTH! I WILL HAVE THE KEY!
Lord_Nengorth…
GaulenNothing to say? I will take that as a NO.
<NARRATOR>You take a step towards the Prince and in that precise moment he breaks his silence.
Lord_NengorthNot only will you not have the key, I sentence you to death for your actions: MURDERER OF MEN!
We hope that when you finish the game you change your mind a bit about the story behind LoX ;o).
Thank you very much for the preview and best wishes from the Numantian Games team!
(tend to prefer the Larian squad's opinion, though, they're a little more straightforward and consistent in what they convey).
