Review RPG Codex Preview: Lords of Xulima

[Mortmal]

I dont remember to have a lot more player input in old might and magic(even last one) and wizardries either. Its exactly like all those pre-fallout rpgs.

 

[felipepepe]

C'mon man, you're being horribly dense here. Read Bee's words again:

Of course, just to get this straight, Lords of Xulima is a fairly niche game. It isn’t a “full-fledged” RPG like Divinity: Original Sin, Wasteland 2 or Baldur’s Gate. Nor is it a tactical RPG like Blackguards, Jagged Alliance 2 or Final Fantasy Tactics. The things it does, however, it does well, and as a fan of first-person RPGs, I can’t wait for the final release.

The point is not "XULIMA IS INFERIOR" or "IT ISN'T A RPG!", just that it's a very focused, niche game. If you come in expecting something like Geneforge, Ultima, Fallout, BG, or whatever, you'll be disappointed. The exact same disclaimer could be used when introducing early M&M and Wizardry games to people that aren't familiar with them.

 

[jdinatale]

How is Xulima not a full-fledged RPG? What makes an RPG full fledged then?

 

[sser]

Just messed around with the game a bit.

It fails pretty fucking hard at a first impression, as the preview noted, but I don't think it really went into depth on just how bad a first impression the game gives you. The writing is god-fucking-awful. Just terrible. I laughed out loud when the game literally says you are the chosen one for a mission. That level of fifth-grade fanfiction is usually used to subvert the fantasy tropes - since the genre spent years ripping off and regurgitating Tolkein - but I didn't see any sort of self-awareness here. Some people like that stuff but I just can't take much more of it, personally. Main character's name sounds like some kind of throat disease. I was a little disappointed that we had to have him in the party and couldn't create our own bro to save the world with, but that's another personal preference. By the time I hit the first chapter monologue I was already fastforwarding. Storywise, nothing interesting happened at any point thus far. Anyway, you start off on a beach, for the umpteenth time in a game it seems, and travel through a short tutorial. Part of the tutorial, at least for me, was learning you should save often, as I had to repeat the entire fucking tutorial a second time when I dared to test the combat engine vs. the town guards without having saved my game. Woe is me. My second initiation into the world was collecting grain for a farmer, a literal clickfest. The pixel hunt aspect of the game would be nice if it wasn't utterly mundane and ultimately an actual chore. It appears plants are collected and after X-amount are picked up you can make a vial giving you X-reward.

The combat itself when you get out into the world is fairly interesting. I'm not at all far into the game but a bunch of walls have already been put up. They're called enemies, but they're obviously walls because they stop you from entering corridors. Not much in the way of exploration so much as, ho'shit, can't go that way. This is more a flaw of the game mechanics, that is, the party/turn-based aspects. Risen also had nasties that would fuck you up, but that game was real-time, and sprinting from monsters, or stealing stuff from them as they chased you around, was part of the fun. Not so much here. Primary issue with it is there's no way to quickly get out of a fight sometimes. Like I gotta sit there and watch the enemies destroy my party, laying down stuns, sleeps, etc. while I'm like cool I just want to reload my fucking game please. When you're not running into don't-go-here enemies, the fights are interesting and quite involving. Both sides tend to fuck one another up quite a bit, and there comes a bit of a chess element to party movement as both enemies and yourself have to shuffle members around to accommodate unforeseen circumstances (like people dying). Also, I'm not entirely sure what the fuck a "critical failure" is supposed to represent, but my assumption is your early-level bros are so fucking stupid and clumsy they can kill themselves swinging their weapons around. I hope that aspect comes to a stop.

Anyway, I think the game has potential, for all the buttriding I've been giving it, but that first impression is extremely fucking bad.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

As a backer I could play the game right now, too. Would you recommend that or is it worth to wait a few more weeks for polishing and balancing?

Wait. They have been tweaking the classes a lot in the past days, so you are in serious danger of having your playstyle ruined by a patch. Also, the SUmmoner class seems to very interesting, I would wait for it.

You guys never played Dragon Quest?

Unusual bro, not new.

Besides, not only I never played a western RPG like that, but the comparison with DQ is a weak one. The exploration is much more important, with traps, fog of war, hidden passageways... it's closer to Geneforge.

Actually the exploration reminds me of HOMM in a few ways.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

Yes it's an annoying aspect, constantly being stuck and wondering which enemy you will tackle first to make sure to be able to buy enough resources in order to fight another enemy that's just a bit stronger. In that sense it's a puzzle game like King's Bounty, except King's Bounty had tactical combat to make up for it. I thought I would play an RPG, not solve King's Bounty types of puzzles.

 

[Applypoison]

I'm not entirely sure what the fuck a "critical failure" is

That's allright. "Critical Fumble", "Critical Miss" or "Critical Fail" can be found in most D&D rulesets/Infinity Engine games. It's when your attack roll is so low (<5%), that you essentially swing very clumsily and/or stumble, preventing the attack from landing. In Xulima it only really happens if the party is starving or suffering from combat wounds.

For reference, here is an especially evil chart:
http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Fumble_Chart_(3.5e_Variant_Rule)

Anyhow, agree that the artistic direction is in need of a bit more unification. That said, a good bit of the gameplay's potential is already fleshed out; it is just an acquired taste. Xulima wins you over little by little with its semi-minimalist approach, and once you are invested into the game, that "100 hours of RPG" promise takes on a much better meaning.

 

[Jack Dandy]

If you come in expecting something like Geneforge, Ultima, Fallout, BG, or whatever, you'll be disappointed.

Again..
From what I remember, Ultimas 1-5 were also pretty formulaic. Open world, go to towns, explore dungeon, find the stones\runes\mantras, get to final endgame dungeon. I haven't played 6 yet and I understand it was pretty similar.
7 and SI had garbage combat and no interesting character building options. 8 and 9 are... yeah.

What I'm trying to say is, Xulima is just a different kind of RPG. It IS very focused as you guys said, just not on the same things that the games you listed focus on.
Saying it's not full-fledged seems wrong. That kind of wording gives an impression of something half-assed game, that doesn't really accomplish what it set out to do.

Look at it this way: would you say stuff like M&M and Wizardry aren't full-fledged?

 

[Crooked Bee]

It fails pretty fucking hard at a first impression, as the preview noted, but I don't think it really went into depth on just how bad a first impression the game gives you.

I agree with most of your points (except for the critical failure mechanic, which is standard pnp mechanic and is okay I think), and we could've gone into even more detail on that as well as other things, but I think you'll agree that the preview is long enough already. Plus, we wanted to move on to the better parts of the game.

We do say the story is pretty bad, though.

Yes it's an annoying aspect, constantly being stuck and wondering which enemy you will tackle first to make sure to be able to buy enough resources in order to fight another enemy that's just a bit stronger. In that sense it's a puzzle game like King's Bounty, except King's Bounty had tactical combat to make up for it. I thought I would play an RPG, not solve King's Bounty types of puzzles.

That isn't quite my experience with the game's exploration; like I said in the preview, you can kill enemies and explore areas in various order as soon as you've gained a few levels. I think you're exaggerating.

Look at it this way: would you say stuff like M&M and Wizardry aren't full-fledged?

Of course - which is exactly what I say in the preview, too, when I compare Xulima to Wizardry. "Full-fledged" is e.g. Baldur's Gate 2 or Wizardry 8 (since it ramped up NPC interaction and quest design). Those are RPGs that focus or try to focus on all areas at once, and are at least decent in all of those areas. If you don't see the difference between those games and Xulima, then I don't think we'll find common ground here.

For some reason you seem to take that as a criticism, though. I fail to see why.

 

[Jack Dandy]

"Full-fledged" is e.g. Baldur's Gate 2 or Wizardry 8 (since it ramped up NPC interaction and quest design). Those are RPGs that focus or try to focus on all areas at once, and are at least decent in all of those areas.

Oh, that kind of thing...?
Now that you put it this way, I'm getting a clearer picture of your intentions when you used that phrase.
I even somewhat agree with you on that end- still wish there was a better (more accurate?) way to put it in words, tho.

But I guess that's more a problem of "RPG" being one of the broadest blanket terms for a videogame genre. A discussion for another day...

 

[Crooked Bee]

Well, I thought the context and the points I made throughout the review made it pretty clear. I needed to underscore that Xulima is a niche game, and not for everyone. It does some things very well, but many other things that many people have come to expect from RPGs* - NPC interaction, quest design, story, etc., or even cities like Athkatla where you can enter houses and explore around - are basically very simplistic to non-existent.

*For better or for worse; it wasn't my goal to discuss that in this preview.

 

[Infinitron]

I thought Vault Dweller's term was "full scale RPG".

 

[Crooked Bee]

I thought Vault Dweller's term was "full scale RPG".

Maybe, I didn't know that. I wasn't thinking of referencing any established term, just looking for something to call an RPG that wasn't "niche"/focused only on a few specific things.

 

[Mortmal]

C'mon man, you're being horribly dense here. Read Bee's words again:

Of course, just to get this straight, Lords of Xulima is a fairly niche game. It isn’t a “full-fledged” RPG like Divinity: Original Sin, Wasteland 2 or Baldur’s Gate. Nor is it a tactical RPG like Blackguards, Jagged Alliance 2 or Final Fantasy Tactics. The things it does, however, it does well, and as a fan of first-person RPGs, I can’t wait for the final release.

The point is not "XULIMA IS INFERIOR" or "IT ISN'T A RPG!", just that it's a very focused, niche game. If you come in expecting something like Geneforge, Ultima, Fallout, BG, or whatever, you'll be disappointed. The exact same disclaimer could be used when introducing early M&M and Wizardry games to people that aren't familiar with them.

its worth claryfying it. You say it yourself before npcs are just there to hand quest wich are just there to kill monsters and get loot. Its the classic D&D, door, corridor, monster , treasure schema .I've never heard anyone saying before gold box games , wizardries , might and magic were not full fledged rpg . Even then there was games, like dragon wars and wastelands wich were a lot less linear added skillchecks and different way to solve quests , way before fallout.I wont name them all but 99% of computer rpgs were like this .

I just think the adjective is too negative and unfair to this game , even if it was not meant to be, remove it from the review.Say its niche, its ok.That 16$ indie game is not as sophisticated as D:OS but comparable to most of 90's classics.

 

[felipepepe]

Bro, are you even reading what we're replying? Both Bee and I just said that yes, early Wizardry and M&M games would probably warrant a similar disclaimer today. We're not in the 80's anymore, for the last 15 years most RPGs have complex quests, interesting NPCs, choice & consequence, branching storyline, etc. Or at least try to have those.

Its the classic D&D, door, corridor, monster, treasure schema.

You mean Hack and Slash. As people would say even back in the days, when comparing PnP campaigns that were pure dungeon crawling to those with more elaborate story, quests & role-playing.

I just think the adjective is too negative and unfair to this game, even if it was not meant to be, remove it from the review. Say its niche, its ok. That 16$ indie game is not as sophisticated as D:OS but comparable to most of 90's classics.

The negative tone is a good thing. It's part of my criticism, the story and the quests are just as a backdrop and add nothing. In fact, they detract from the game, because telling me that I'll have to purify 8 temples, kill 4 princes and 4 titans (and 4 witches as side-quests!) makes the game sounds fucking boring, even thought doing those is actually fun. You could say "but games in the 80's were like that" and you'll be right, but we're not in the 80's anymore. I can't dismiss a flaw of the game just because the same flaw was common 30 years ago, that's insane and horribly biased.

 

[Mortmal]

Bro, are you even reading what we're replying? Both Bee and I just said that yes, early Wizardry and M&M games would probably warrant a similar disclaimer today. We're not in the 80's anymore, for the last 15 years most RPGs have complex quests, interesting NPCs, choice & consequence, branching storyline, etc. Or at least try to have those.

Its the classic D&D, door, corridor, monster, treasure schema.

You mean Hack and Slash. As people would say even back in the days, when comparing PnP campaigns that were pure dungeon crawling to those with more elaborate story, quests & role-playing.

I just think the adjective is too negative and unfair to this game, even if it was not meant to be, remove it from the review. Say its niche, its ok. That 16$ indie game is not as sophisticated as D:OS but comparable to most of 90's classics.

The negative tone is a good thing. It's part of my criticism, the story and the quests are just as a backdrop and add nothing. In fact, they detract from the game, because telling me that I'll have to purify 8 temples, kill 4 princes and 4 titans (and 4 witches as side-quests!) makes the game sounds fucking boring, even thought doing those is actually fun. You could say "but games in the 80's were like that" and you'll be right, but we're not in the 80's anymore. I can't dismiss a flaw of the game just because the same flaw was common 30 years ago, that's insane and horribly biased.

You said it, but in the thread only ive seen no such disclaimer in the review, i dont think everyone will read all the thread . There's only one good review on the net and its this one, that said i just pinpoint something that is a little wrong.

I can understand, we are not in the 80's anymore but not so long ago there was no rpg release at all , was it released only one year ago everyone would praise it . D:0S set the bar very high and its hard to enjoy new rpgs as before. We are going from three star restaurant food served in golden plates , to a fine meal in a family inn, but remember those years we crossed the desert with barely a few beetles we could scavenge under the rocks... like eschalon .

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

I think you guys were more than fair. I've spent maybe 5 hours (trying to limit the spoil pre-release) and I have to agree with your observations.

The best part about it is the stiff challenge level. You constantly worry about resources.

 

[victim]

the game's presentation clashes with its gameplay and fails to convey that this is supposed to be a deep oldschool RPG.

This is perhaps the main point to me. KotC looks like an old-school hardcore game:

A simple glance at this screen will make a RPG fan understand it has a lot of mechanics beneath those simple graphics. Xulima doesn't do that. You'll never guess how complex and interesting the game is from looking at some screenshots.

And the slow start only pushes that even forward. As I said, I was a backer and was excited for it, but the first 30 minutes were disappointing, while the rest surpassed my expectations.

What you are talking about is NICHE "RPG fans". I can virtually guarantee that most "RPG fans" will take a more streamlined interface that allows you to digest the mechanics slowly as opposed to a lecture on real analysis in video game form. If Xulima looked like that image, I would barely consider giving it a second look.

Also, Normal plays like a different game than Classic. Haven't tried Hardcore but Classic is about managing slim resources and deciding what to tackle and when in a tactical order. You can't quite just mash in Normal but its much closer to that style of game.

 

[felipepepe]

I can virtually guarantee that most "RPG fans" will...

Sorry, but I can't take seriously any sentence that starts like this.

 

[victim]

We're not in the 80's anymore, for the last 15 years most RPGs have complex quests, interesting NPCs, choice & consequence, branching storyline, etc. Or at least try to have those.

I don't understand why you would choose this as your critique. Those things are understood going in as the game professes to be "old school' and indeed touts the moniker as a point a of pride. What's more, you are writing a review that is largely going to read by people who are SYMPATHETIC to such old school (nostalgia?) principles. If you are going to argue that the game is antiquated I don't know who will disagree with you -- but in the process you side skirt the issue that a (small) subset of players would rather play a game like this. If that wasn't true, why would this game even exist let alone merit your time to write a review?

 

[victim]

Sorry, but I can't take seriously any sentence that starts like this.

And you are wrong. First you have missed my point (I use exaggeration openly to highlight the fact that you have done the same while trying to couch it in an appeal to the sympathies of a certain type of player who share your ideas (prejudices) of what constitutes a "real" RPG).

Secondly, you spoke of being OBJECTIVE. Yes, you absolutely can make objective assessments of what players prefer. You and I may not have those resources personally but we can draw obvious inferences. And there is simply no way you are going to pawn off your Calculus Exam interface as "popular".

 

[Infinitron]

Good lord what the fuck is wrong with you people

Joined:
Feb 12, 2014

Oh yeah

 

[HiddenX]

Story elements and NPC interaction are common nowadays, but they are not essential for CRPGs.

 

[Jack Dandy]

Let's not go down that path, Infi. Opinions are opinions. Blowing them off based on registration date just stifles discussion.

 

[victim]

Good lord what the fuck is wrong with you people

Joined:
Feb 12, 2014

Oh yeah

You looking to trade posts where we insinuate each other to be shit heads?

Spoiler

shit head