Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: Torment: Tides of Numenera

[ksaun]

Yeah, this is probably going to be like Torment without all the filler combat. I'm sure that fills some people with joy, but Torment would feel really weird to me pacing-wise without that combat.

We also have some concerns/curiosity about how the absence of filler combat affects pacing, too.

Wow. I'm hoping that they've got some iron discipline in prioritisation, and are sticking to a reasonably smallish gameworld, as this is starting to sound tremendously ambitious. Aiming for viable zero-combat runs, with multiple options for EVERY crisis, in this kind of game is a different league of ambitious compared to Deus Ex style games, where non-combat is 'just' a matter of implementing and designing around a stealth mechanic (scare-quotes around 'just', because that's still quite a design challenge). Ordinarily, I'm massively impressed by 'multiple options' in this style of game if they apply only to a well-placed smattering of specific instances. PS:T and FO are good examples - lovely reactivity when dealing with significant NPCs and quests, but no rat diplomacy or speaking your way past the general mooks. Obviously it would be better if you extended that reactivity to everything, but that's the kind of thing you just mentally write off as a necessary compromise due to the insane resources it would take.

If they're seriously going multiple options and non-combat solutions for EVERYTHING (assuming that doesn't just mean stealthing past all the content), that would quite possibly be the most ambitious crpg design ever attempted. Could be amazing if they pull it off, but I'm worried it might turn into an Alpha Protocol.

I'm also not sure if it's wise to make that kind of promise mid-development. Nobody would seriously complain if they struggled to implement it and had to cut it back to 'only' PS:T levels of reactivity - except for the fact that they've come out and declared multiple options for every crisis as a core goal. It's also the kind of promise that warps fans perceptions of a game (and I'm including myself in this). When you've been promised this in advance, things which should rightly be mind-blowing, end up feeling like standard mechanics, where you feel disappointed if they don't work, but without that 'WOW!' feeling when they do work.

Yes, it is a little risky to talk about such things. At this point, we're only discussing what we're intending - we can't responsibly make promises about the end results for Crises at this stage. Thus far, what we've described for them feels realistic. As Infinitron noted, the number of them will be quite finite. (Overall on Torment, we're emphasizing quality over quantity, but it can still be hard to keep in check everyone's natural wishes to do more and there does need to be sufficient quantity, too.)

 

[Infinitron]

Hey, ksaun, I'd like to ask you this question again about character sizes: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-successor-thread.79051/page-260#post-2803354

In general, how is Torment's graphical style shaping up now that you're definitely using the Pillars of Eternity tech as a baseline? Will it look similar, or will you make an effort to differentiate like the original PS:T did viz a viz Baldur's Gate?

 

[Athelas]

Why would it look similar when they have different artists? Even Icewind Dale looks markedly different from Baldur's Gate despite sharing the same setting.

Though I assume they're using their own tech for character models/animations.

 

[Infinitron]

Even Icewind Dale looks markedly different from Baldur's Gate despite sharing the same setting.

Certainly not nearly as different, and if you'll examine that old post you'll see I was referring primarily to character art.

 

[karfhud]

What a great interview - thanks! I have more and more faith in George Ziets; it's almost unreal, but I have literally no expectations from TToN, not because I don't want to get overhyped, but because I just have no idea what to expect. The little red bugger on my shoulder says, "it can be better that PS:T, with all this writing talent on board and you know it, so pull that hype lever and go insane, now".

As for combat - it's not gonna be cut entirely, will it? It's not even suggested in this interview; there will just be other ways to resolve it, that's how I understood it. I wouldn't worry about pacing, writers know all about pacing and since there's so many of them on TToN, they'll nail it.

I'm also really excited for Brother None's, what should I call it, progress? Must be very rewarding to be able to learn on-the-go within such a brilliant team and then have an opportunity to write and contribute. Keep it up!

Oh, and I can't wait to hear what is it that Brian Mitsoda will write for this.

 

[VioletShadow]

Adam Heine

How's that military coup going ?

Not nearly as bad as CNN makes it sound.

CNN mainstream media is terrible, what can you expect. Still, hope there aren't any more deaths

MicoSelva Agree with you on the world-building point.

 

[Dr Schultz]

Yeah, this is probably going to be like Torment without all the filler combat. I'm sure that fills some people with joy, but Torment would feel really weird to me pacing-wise without that combat.

We also have some concerns/curiosity about how the absence of filler combat affects pacing, too.

I'm more concerned/interested in the "non-crisis gameplay per se. How do you guys plan to make it a compelling part of the game?

 

[PlanHex]

Over the course of the game, players can choose to embrace their curse (thus becoming more monstrous) or reject it (and gradually become more human) over the course of the game.

We also have some concerns/curiosity about how the absence of filler combat affects pacing, too.

more like Tautology: Tautology of Numenera amirite

 

[throwaway]

Has the lack of day-night schedule been mentioned before? It's alright if its explained in the lore but I'd rather some dynamism than a static Bioware area.

 

[Infinitron]

Has the lack of day-night schedule been mentioned before? It's alright if its explained in the lore but I'd rather some dynamism than a static Bioware area.

I know they were considering it, but this is the first time it's been confirmed, I believe.

 

[ksaun]

Hey, ksaun, I'd like to ask you this question again about character sizes: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-successor-thread.79051/page-260#post-2803354

In general, how is Torment's graphical style shaping up now that you're definitely using the Pillars of Eternity tech as a baseline? Will it look similar, or will you make an effort to differentiate like the original PS:T did viz a viz Baldur's Gate?

I think you raised a great point, but ultimately we have gone conservative on this front and are planning to keep with the basic parameters (e.g., size of character on screen, camera angle) that PE is using. Whenever we more closely keep things as they are in PE, it reduces work/risk as we have confidence Obsidian will solve whatever problems arise. This gives us more oomph to be more experimental/different in the specific areas we choose. Anywhere we deviate, there is the possibility that some aspect of the PE technology doesn't behave as expected, creating new issues to solve.

Also, (and this is oversimplifying some), if we have the characters be, say, 30% larger on screen, then, well, we're also 30% closer to the environments. So the cost of creating the environments would also go up.

(One thing we are planning to do differently is to maintain the same screen space regardless of the resolution.) That is, if you play at a higher resolution, what you see would be at a higher detail, and the "zoom level" stays the same.)

We are planning to do a couple other things differently from PE that should place greater emphasis on the companions, but we're not ready to go into details yet.

What a great interview - thanks! I have more and more faith in George Ziets; it's almost unreal, but I have literally no expectations from TToN, not because I don't want to get overhyped, but because I just have no idea what to expect. The little red bugger on my shoulder says, "it can be better that PS:T, with all this writing talent on board and you know it, so pull that hype lever and go insane, now".

As for combat - it's not gonna be cut entirely, will it? It's not even suggested in this interview; there will just be other ways to resolve it, that's how I understood it. I wouldn't worry about pacing, writers know all about pacing and since there's so many of them on TToN, they'll nail it.

I'm also really excited for Brother None's, what should I call it, progress? Must be very rewarding to be able to learn on-the-go within such a brilliant team and then have an opportunity to write and contribute. Keep it up!

Oh, and I can't wait to hear what is it that Brian Mitsoda will write for this.

Please keep your expectations low so that we have some hope of exceeding them (or at least coming within a few sighs). We are just humans (well, most of us, anyway). (Though I'll say that I have a lot of faith in George Ziets, too (obviously).)

We intend for some Crises (i.e., >= 1) to involve "tactical" situations and problem-solving that occur in the absence of combat.

Has the lack of day-night schedule been mentioned before? It's alright if its explained in the lore but I'd rather some dynamism than a static Bioware area.

I know they were considering it, but this is the first time it's been confirmed, I believe.

This was the first time we publicly stated this decision. We'll probably discuss more of the details "soon." (I.e., within a couple/few updates. Which apparently won't be soon at all.)

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

Fantasy literature is shit...News at 11.

China Mieville could write a much better companion and area than Rothfuss ever could.

Mieville has a great imagination, but his characters aren't very strong. Mieville's real strength lies in worldbuilding. So I'd more prefer him working on lore stuff.
Alas, he would never agree to work with capitalist dogs.

 

[Sunsetspawn]

Every time I read about this game I get this feeling in my gut...

Spoiler

 

[StaticSpine]

Every time I read about this game I get this feeling in my gut...

Spoiler

Nah, bro, the thing is - all of the combat can be optional according to the interview, so you will decide how much of it will be during the playthrough.

 

[Infinitron]

StaticSpine I'm sure the game won't have that much combat even so. It's just not that kind of game. And if you're complaining about that then you're probably missing the point of a Torment game.

Of course, among a significant portion of the Codex having little combat is considered a very positive feature. For example, it often comes up in Fallout 1 vs Fallout 2 debates. When it comes to turn-based combat, "too much of a good thing" can be a factor.

 

[Zeriel]

I'm not sure it actually is a positive feature. People think it is, but the games that actually feature it in some regard (say, Age of Decadence talker routes) have had a lot of detractors. There are things the Codex likes theoretically, but then reacts to in an adverse way.

 

[StaticSpine]

StaticSpine I'm sure the game won't have that much combat even so. It's just not that kind of game. And if you're complaining about that then you're probably missing the point of a Torment game.

Of course, among a significant portion of the Codex having little combat is considered a very positive feature. For example, it often comes up in Fallout 1 vs Fallout 2 debates. When it comes to turn-based combat, "too much of a good thing" can be a factor.

Well, I believe nobody wants such amount of combat as PS:T threw at players in the later stages.

Of course, the main thing that matters - the game is story-oriented. And the combat is secondary. I really like the fully optional combat and no thrash mobs.

 

[Infinitron]

I'm not sure it actually is a positive feature. People think it is, but the games that actually feature it in some regard (say, Age of Decadence talker routes) have had a lot of detractors. There are things the Codex likes theoretically, but then reacts to in an adverse way.

I don't think it was a lack of combat per se that was people's issue with Age of Decadence. Besides which, if you look at the recent poll, it seems its reputation has been rehabilitated somewhat.

 

[Zeriel]

I'm not sure it actually is a positive feature. People think it is, but the games that actually feature it in some regard (say, Age of Decadence talker routes) have had a lot of detractors. There are things the Codex likes theoretically, but then reacts to in an adverse way.

I don't think it was a lack of combat per se that was people's issue with Age of Decadence. Besides which, if you look at the recent poll, it seems its reputation has been rehabilitated somewhat.

I love the talker routes, but I do think there is a tendency for people to put on their player-as-designer hats and theorize things as perfect that they'd hate to actually play.

 

[Roguey]

I'm not sure it actually is a positive feature. People think it is, but the games that actually feature it in some regard (say, Age of Decadence talker routes) have had a lot of detractors. There are things the Codex likes theoretically, but then reacts to in an adverse way.

I liked the ratio of dialogue/walking to combat in Dead Man's Switch, I'm imagining Torment will be comparable but with more freedomsssssssssss.

The last time I checked it out, AoD's talking routes were go here, spend time in menus, go there, spend time in menus. It lacked the walking-around-looting-containers-and-discovering-side-quests aspect that people enjoy in Fallout and Torment that will no doubt be present in New Torment.

 

[Drowed]

I'm not sure it actually is a positive feature. People think it is, but the games that actually feature it in some regard (say, Age of Decadence talker routes) have had a lot of detractors. There are things the Codex likes theoretically, but then reacts to in an adverse way.

I liked the ratio of dialogue/walking to combat in Dead Man's Switch, I'm imagining Torment will be comparable but with more freedomsssssssssss.

The last time I checked it out, AoD's talking routes were go here, spend time in menus, go there, spend time in menus. It lacked the walking-around-looting-containers-and-discovering-side-quests aspect that people enjoy in Fallout and Torment that will no doubt be present in New Torment.

That. And the combat itself in AOD is extremely unforgiving and somewhat dull. You control a single character who necessarily need to specialize in a specific form of combat (dodge or block, a sword or another weapon). So, unless you are actively creating a character focused on fighting, falling into a combat situation causes a feeling that you have been "punished" by the game by yours "bad decisions".

In Torment, I imagine that the fighting (even if challenging) will offer a much wider range of styles, with different characters, with different skills/abilities and so on. So even if your "peaceful group" end up in a fight, all the other game mechanics encourages you to get the impression of a complete experience, while AOD is basically a CYOA game in electronic format. What makes people criticize AOD is not the fact that it has hard combat, nor because you're be able to avoid almost all of it - but by the "way" as these things appear in the game.

 

[throwaway]

Which apparently won't be soon at all.

 

[CyberWhale]

I also read the Name of the Wind a while ago, just out of curiosity about Rothfuss.

It wasn't a great book, but I found its highly personal (almost to the point of solipsism) method of storytelling refreshingly different from the usual "kings, castles and armies" fantasy fare, and in that sense it was worth reading.

I'm not a super well-read person though, so perhaps there are other fantasy tales that do that better.

Gene Wolfe.

 

[Western]

Share your inside infos!

I have none, I just think he's a bad writer based on http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-goal-and-much-more.81506/page-6#post-2563102

Fantasy literature is shit...News at 11.

Book of the New Sun and China Mieville (author) aren't too bad.

 

[DalekFlay]

StaticSpine I'm sure the game won't have that much combat even so. It's just not that kind of game. And if you're complaining about that then you're probably missing the point of a Torment game.

Of course, among a significant portion of the Codex having little combat is considered a very positive feature. For example, it often comes up in Fallout 1 vs Fallout 2 debates. When it comes to turn-based combat, "too much of a good thing" can be a factor.

It should have enough combat to where combat feels like a worthwhile part of the game at least. And I assume it will.