Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: Serpent in the Staglands (Now on Kickstarter)

[Abelian]

Couldn't edit the original post, so re-posting.

A person needs new experiences. They jar something deep inside, allowing him to grow. Without change something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken.

 

[Severian Silk]

I'm not really interested in this game.

It's not turn-based, uses an ugly color palette, and the pixelly graphics aren't that great either.

I might buy it on a Steam sale though.

 

[Durante]

Just dropping in to say that I'm backing this game primarily because it's RTwP, and we don't get nearly enough of that.

 

[Cynic]

Just dropping in to say that I'm backing this game primarily because it's RTwP, and we don't get nearly enough of that.

 

[Korron]

The art is pretty and I've never understood the detestation of rtwp (it's a lot faster moving some some sluggish tbs games, especially if lots of trash encounters are in the game). But the creators' comments, their inexperience, and the low funding goal assure me that this isn't worth backing. Unless they're making this game in Uganda, there's no way $10k is a reasonable funding goal, unless this game is something they plan to string together over 5 years worth of weekends.

Definitely have no faith left in KS either. I wouldn't even back a AAA title at this point that looked and sounded good.

Meh they're indie devs and clearly aren't eating a neckbeard diet. I think they can survive off ramen for 8 months. Plus it's in alpha and probably subsidized by their own funds as well. $20 is a little steep for unproven RPG devs to be asking IMO, but fuck it.


I'll kick myself later when it's $2 on a gog sale and the mechanics are disappointing. Love that art though.

 

[set]

$10k is honestly a deceitfully small amount, is that enough to even cover the legal fees of releasing a game, getting sound/soundtrack done, nevermind paying the rent or keeping the lights on...? For two people? There's no way it's a full-time project at $10k -- and if it's coming from an established team that already has funding secured to make the game, then they're just skimming for bonus cash from Kickstarter and it feels like they're just taking advantage of the system. That's why it's really disheartening for me.

Kickstarters are about promising the world and not caring if it can be delivered. It's these concerns - these concerns the project devs never care to address directly - that prevent me from having trust. Tim Schafer said $400k would be enough, Harebrained thought what, $750k? I forget -- and Wasteland 2 was $1m. Can you imagine Wasteland 2 with a third of its funding? It'd never would have gotten off the ground on that pitiful budget - it's barely there at this stage and it's clear they're almost out of money.

Game development is expensive and grueling; any software development is. As much as I would like this game to be good, I won't back it. If it's good, I will buy it, but at this point... supporting wishful thinking is just going to cause harm to the video game industry, it's not going to work out like I had hoped it would.

 

[Korron]

$10k is honestly a deceitfully small amount, is that enough to even cover the legal fees of releasing a game, getting sound/soundtrack done, nevermind paying the rent or keeping the lights on...? For two people? There's no way it's a full-time project at $10k -- and if it's coming from an established team that already has funding secured to make the game, then they're just skimming for bonus cash from Kickstarter and it feels like they're just taking advantage of the system. That's why it's really disheartening for me.

Skimming for bonus cash to do what? Expand the contents of the game if they're honest. They clearly have a lot of passion so they get my benefit of the doubt. Did you back D:OS? I think that was worth it. A good entry price to help expand the content of a game that was already guaranteed and shaping up to be something special? Probably a better way to spend $$$ than unknowns or hell even pre-orders where you know the devs aren't seeing any of that. I'll give you wasteland 2. Honestly I was a bit let down when they released the demo with a 3 mill budget. Though I wouldn't speculate on their financial situation and submit it as fact. Hopefully they turn it around before release otherwise Fargo is nothing but a good salesman. I respect what HBS delivered with such a small budget. I got 30 plus hours of at least reasonable content and an interesting setting for $20. I certainly won't sing it's praises all day long, but they managed their scope incredibly well for a small budget.

 

[Merlkir]

$10k is honestly a deceitfully small amount, is that enough to even cover the legal fees of releasing a game...blah blah

Wasn't this already answered a while ago? That it's not their entire budget, that they're using savings from previous projects etc. etc.?

 

[pipeboyjam]

Alot of kickstarters now use it more for publicity and building a community than the money. This is a good example as rpg's require extensive beta testing which would be very expensive unless you had a community of dedicated beta testers available.

Not only have they got a working prototype but they seem to know exactly what they are doing.
One thing that bothers me though is that even though they say they are eager for feedback, they haven't got a forum setup, which means they can't be very serious about community input. Their $75 beta access is also bad news as it's very expensive and as such would only attract rich and or diehard rpg players, who aren't the best when it comes to game accessibility and ease of use.

For example their simplied combat table still seems to complicated for those who haven't played table top rpg's with dice. (like me) They should follow pillars of eternity who claim to be greatly simplifying combat technicalities.

Another piece of advice is combat feedback. One of the things I didn't like about baldurs gate combat was combat feedback in the form of hits and effects wasn't very apparent which made judging combat progress difficult and haphazard rather than skill based. (spell types for example should be color coded, hits and magical effects should also be easy to see.)

ps
As for wasteland 2, they were the first off the block. And although they chose the Unity engine, they chose to go full 3D which resulted in second rate graphics. In this regard the subsequent Pillars of Eternity has blown them out of the water in the graphics department. They'll be sharing technology in the future, so hopefully Wasteland 3 will use their graphic style as well.

pps
I would reiterate that the font is doubly difficult to read on small screens, and will be murder on tablet/mobile devices. So they really need to fix that. Perhaps once/if they get a forum up they can get user suggestions on easy to read but somewhat romanian/gothic looking fonts.

 

[Monty]

For example their simplied combat table still seems to complicated for those who haven't played table top rpg's with dice. (like me) They should follow pillars of eternity who claim to be greatly simplifying combat technicalities.

...this isn't the forum you're looking for...

Here you go: http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/

 

[V_K]

...this isn't the forum you're looking for...

Why? Two praises to PoE in a single post are a sure sign of an Obsidian fanboy, which means he'll fit right in.

 

[pipeboyjam]

I'd say the majority of crpg players are not very familiar with tabletop rpg games and probably have never played one. So bringing the complexities of calculating dice rolls in tabletop rpg's to crpg's is dumb. Pillars of Eternity devs point out how flawed d&d games were in this department. In a crpg calculating combat numbers should be easily done by anyone who can perform addition and simple multiplication in their head. The low bar should be your average 15 year old or less. In the staglands outline they have a table with algebra. If you need a table with algebra to explain your combat mechanics, your doing it wrong.

Also I was hoping for a dedicated forum like wasteland 2.

 

[felipepepe]

If you need a table with algebra to explain your combat mechanics, your doing it wrong.

Obviously Awesome Button is the solution.

 

[Helly]

Why don't we give them a subforum on the codex ? I mean, having a dedicated subforum on a prestigious site like ours has worked so far for other rpgs, right ?

Spoiler

 

[FeelTheRads]

The low bar should be your average 15 year old or less.

'sup Drog.

 

[Athelas]

The sanctity of this place has been fouled.

 

[Abelian]

Perhaps once/if they get a forum up they can get user suggestions on easy to read but somewhat romanian/gothic looking fonts.

Romania used the Cyrillic alphabet until the mid-19th century, and pixelized Gothic would be even harder to read (see old Ultima games).

In a crpg calculating combat numbers should be easily done by anyone who can perform addition and simple multiplication in their head. The low bar should be your average 15 year old or less. In the staglands outline they have a table with algebra. If you need a table with algebra to explain your combat mechanics, your doing it wrong.

Dice have the advantage of being able to easily model a non-uniform distribution.

For example for a weapon that has a damage range of 2-12, you could use "addition and simple multiplication" and model it as 1D11 + 1 (an eleven sided die, plus 1 additional damage.
However, if you use two dice to model it, you get the following distribution, where the chance of getting 2 or 12 (min and max) damage is 1/36 each, while their average, 7, has a 6/36 chance. And technically, combinatorics is addition and multiplication anyway.

 

[Durwyn]

I'd say the majority of crpg players are not very familiar with tabletop rpg games and probably have never played one.

Jesus, so this is why the decline has been with us for such a long time.

So bringing the complexities of calculating dice rolls in tabletop rpg's to crpg's is dumb.

No, just no.

Also I was hoping for a dedicated forum like wasteland 2.

I've seen some pretty wild shit there so probably less dedication, more realism and common sense is the way to go after all.

 

[whitepony]

Pyramids LOL. But what does it have to do with immershun?

 

[GlutenBurger]

For example their simplied combat table still seems to complicated for those who haven't played table top rpg's with dice. (like me) They should follow pillars of eternity who claim to be greatly simplifying combat technicalities.

This is actually a very good point. Dice outcomes are way too complicated for the layman to get his head around. This is the very reason I could never get into Snakes and Ladders, and had to sit in the corner of the room chewing flakes of paint while all the other kids were gleefully gathered around the gameboard.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't think they need any other defense other than "we like RTwP so we're making that". Not everything has to be phrased in terms of trying to achieve some higher mechanical purpose.

Agreed that the "intense battles" thing sounds kind of dumb, but yeah

 

[Korron]

Leave RTwP alone!

Seriously if you guys convince another kickstarter to go TB I'm going to find all your addresses and shit on your doorsteps.

 

[pipeboyjam]

I prefer the Fallout system. It told you your hit percentage and expected damage range. No need to calculate anything.

In Rtwp it will be more difficult to do this. But perhaps they can have damage numerals pop up beside you enemy when a hit is performed or when your cursor is over them. That way if your quick enough at addition in your head you have a good idea of how much damage your doing per second. And intime can estimate the hp level of your opponents. This would give you an edge in combat, but would be an optional feature you could switch off if you like.

Being able to estimate your opponents hp level also means they can introduce a damage/performance system. In that the more damage your opponent suffers the less effective they become in combat. Which is alot more realistic and adds another layer of tactics into combat. (Always thought it was kind of wird my almost dead barbarian dwarf was still wailing away with his dual axes like on speed)

A hotkey activated pop-up percentage and expected damage rating for all enemies would also be helpful. And make Rtwp combat just a little more tactical and skill based, less hack and slash till your opponent dies.

Rtwp is more intense in the sense that it's more visceral. Combat is encouraged to occur at a vastly faster pace than turn based and as such combat decisions and effects can be felt more strongly. Turn based combat is more cerebral, rtwp is more instinctual. According to the myer briggs personality test. Turn based are for the Thinking types. While real time and Rtwp are the Sensing types. Turn based = Logic, Rtwp = sensuality. Chess vs sex.

That some Thinking personality types trying to play Rtwp games like they are turn based games, demonstrates it's increased flexibility and thus superiority. But if you want to cater for every personality type every crpg should include all three types of combat. Clicky diablo type + rtwp + turn based. But budget and time constraints mean most developers must focus on one combat system.

Also don't see how performing mathematics in crpg games is at all relevant to the rpg experience. It's easy to argue that performing mathematics detracts from immersion in the rpg. Since the only time I do math, is with money or when I was in primary school.

 

[pipeboyjam]

Now that I think about it more. Providing more but optional combat information will help bridge the gap between retwp and turn based combat. Allowing players levels of increasing tactical information flowing into increasingly tactical decisions. Here's hoping the devs give this serious thought since varying levels of combat involvement is not just a personality preference, but varies depending on a persons mood and of course the specific battle. Baldurs Gate II is a good example, fighting evil people you enjoy killing often meant you allowed combat to go unpaused in realtime for that extra dose of visceral emotional satisfaction even if that meant you took more damage. (or when charging or laying an ambush) When you had allies at stake you took things slower and paused often to minimize damage. And in the hard battles pausing often was a necessity.

It seems they may be on this path though since they mention magic spells that are less fire and forget energy weapons but instead require to be sustained during battle. This improves your tactical options. And they also mention being able to identify spells being cast, which is great cause that was a major weakness of baldurs gate where almost always you had no idea what spells were being used against you until they were already cast and their effect felt.

ps
And the saving grace of rtwp is it allows boring and/or easy fights to quickly be finished. (Although the speed seems to be quite slow from the gifs, movement speed is also super slow in combat. You don't leisurely walk to attack someone, you jog at the minimum. And realistically in a team fight, you would sprint. Perhaps they don't want to do the extra animation.)

 

[pipeboyjam]

Sorry for another post. But concerning the forum, by dedicated forum I mean Inxile (wasteland 2 devs) got some forum software put it on a server, got some probably unpaid insiders to moderate it and got alot of feedback from the community. I don't see any budget or time obstacles stopping whalenought from doing this. Maybe they are waiting for the end of the kickstarter.