Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: Daniel Bill on DEMIURGOS: Path of the Leviathan

Discussion in 'RPG News & Content' started by JarlFrank, Aug 1, 2017.

  1. JarlFrankgender: ⚧ I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Parrots:
    21,471
    Location:
    卐 The Cyberreich 卐
    Click here and disable ads!
    Tags: DEMIURGOS: Path of the Leviathan

    Demiurgos: Path of the Leviathan is an interesting indie RPG currently on Kickstarter, and because the main man behind that Project, Daniel Bill, works at the same university I do, I decided to interview him. And boy, was that interview fruitful - one and a half hours of questions about his game, as well as some general discussion about RPGs and game design, which ended up providing almost 14k words of text to be made into a Codex article.

    I interviewed him in German and tanslated everything to English, so if anything seems unclear to you, feel free to blame me. I'll make sure to ignore your complaints as best as I can.

    The game's combat encounters sound very varied and promising, and most of the resident posters are likely to agree with his opinion on a certain Bioware title:

    And every encounter is hand-placed then, right?

    Yes. We’re working on one encounter right now, we didn’t manage to include it in the preview video yet, there are some boss encounters too. Like tanks from the WW1 era driving through a street, and you have to flee from the tank while you’re also shooting at enemies. When the tank gets too close, it destroys your cover. We do want that every combat – there’s one in the preview video, with the hostage situation – has something the player has to pay attention to, and maybe sometimes it’s a better approach to solve the encounter without firing your weapon, like in the hostage situation where you could endanger the hostages. And just as the hostages are released, you shoot your enemies anyway… the player can do that if he wants. We want to make every combat encounter a little special. Hand-made.

    So you’re also placing some unorthodox elements into your encounters, like those tanks that can destroy your cover, in order to make encounters more varied and exciting.

    And also more cinematic and action-packed. It looks pretty cool, too, when you zoom out your camera and wonder – will that tank arrive at my position in the next turn? We also have a cool fight – it’s not completely finished yet – where there’s a submarine that submerges and rises up again occasionally, and you have to fire at the submarine from afar. And you can shoot at the periscope the crew uses to look at the battlefield, and when it’s destroyed the submarine has to come to the surface which makes it easier to attack. We also have an encounter on a train! Maybe we’ll manage to finish that one before the end of the campaign and show it off. You’re on a train and have to go forward while fighting some enemies, and when you’re all the way at the front you enter the driver’s cabin.

    So systemically, your combat system is going to be simple and easy to understand, but what makes the combat interesting is the variation of encounters. That means you’ll probably have few encounters, and encounters with special elements to them, so you’re probably not going to include any filler combat either, are you?

    What’s filler combat?

    Filler combat is… did you play Dragon Age?

    Yes.

    That was chock full with filler combat.

    Dragon Age… [starts rambling] I don’t get what people… I played only Inquisition, and it’s… I don’t understand how one can even compare that to other games, that’s not even an RPG for me.​

    To read more about the gameplay systems and philosophical themes of Demiurgos, and of course more of Daniel Bill's opinions on RPGs both old and new, go read the full article!

    Read the full article: RPG Codex Interview: Daniel Bill on DEMIURGOS: Path of the Leviathan
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 26
    • hopw roewur ne hopw roewur ne x 1
    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
    • Yes! Yes! x 1
    ^ Top  
  2. Jaesungender: ⚧ Fabulous Moderator Patron

    Jaesun
    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Parrots:
    36,529
    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Torment: Tides of Numenera Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech
    I don’t understand how one can even compare that to other games, that’s not even an RPG for me.

    :salute:

    I like this guy already.
     
    • Salute Salute x 7
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  3. Grampy_Bonegender: ⚧ Learned

    Grampy_Bone
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Parrots:
    394
    Location:
    Wandering the world randomly in search of maps
    "Politics, Philosophy, Morality and the Pursuit of Power" Ooh do I smell pretentious, superficial, hipster moralizing? I LOVE pretentious, superficial, hipster moralizing!

    (that may have been sarcasm)

    Is "Demiurge" going to be the new "Nephalim," i.e. some obscure mythological concept dredged out and plugged into game after game with little real care or skill, because it sounds mysterious and cool?
     
    • WTF am I reading x 4
    • Racist x 2
    • butthurt x 1
    • retadred x 1
    • Shit x 1
    ^ Top  
  4. aratukgender: ⚧ Savant

    aratuk
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2013
    Parrots:
    290
    Not to betray my anglophone ignorance, but is "Daniel Bill" an unusual name for a German? Are there plenty of other Germans named "Jonathan Bob" and "Albert Fred"?

    Asking as an American with a German name.

    Edit: I see that it's not an uncommon surname, particularly in Austria. I still hope there are Germans running around named "Jonathan Bob," though.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  5. JarlFrankgender: ⚧ I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Parrots:
    21,471
    Location:
    卐 The Cyberreich 卐
    Sorry to disappoint you, but "Daniel Bill" is a pseudonym.
     
    • Informative Informative x 4
    ^ Top  
  6. aratukgender: ⚧ Savant

    aratuk
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2013
    Parrots:
    290
    Ah, maybe I should have guessed that. Then the question becomes, why the choice of "Daniel Bill" as a pseudonym?
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  7. MRYgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Wormwood Studios Developer

    MRY
    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Parrots:
    2,949
    Location:
    California
    :agenda:
     
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 4
    • Funny Funny x 1
    ^ Top  
  8. JarlFrankgender: ⚧ I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Parrots:
    21,471
    Location:
    卐 The Cyberreich 卐
    Daniel is his real name, for anything else you have to ask Daniel Bill himself. :M
     
    ^ Top  
  9. Daniel Billgender: ⚧ DemiurgExMachina Developer

    Daniel Bill
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2017
    Parrots:
    58
    Location:
    Frankfurt/Main, Germany
    Thank you so much JarlFrank for doing all of this!
    Your translation really is superb!

    The reason I did the interview was to show that I am not an agenda driven hipster, but someone who is interested in social and political science as well as in history and philosophy - and wants to make a game about all of this.
    If this is your definition of hipster - ok.

    I talked about this multiple times and you can find an explanation in the campaign description. But I must admit that without reading these texts beforehand, things could still be unclear.
    I quote from our website/campaign:
    "In Platos philosophical teachings the Demiurge plays a central role. Aristotle`s teacher emphasizes the priority of mind over matter in his epistemology (theory of cognition).
    Our sensory experience is portrayed by Plato as trace of the actual matter; consisting of ideas - the only true elements in cosmos.
    This cosmos is conceived by Plato as a timeless entity, which would be unorganized movement of matter in chaos simply following necessity, if not for the Demiurge.
    Within this chaos, Platos creative deity steps in by arranging the matter and assigning it with the basic ideas of shape, number and measure.All other ideas are furthermore brought into this world by the Demiurge, who by doing so creates our reality which originates solely from his thoughts."

    Regarding this explanation, the name Demiurgos fits into our game - I would say perfectly. It refers primarily to the idea of absolute truth, referring to the age of ideologies. Secondarily it refers to the player - following the "Path of the Leviathan" - trying to impose his way of thinking on the world.

    It's my mothers surname!

    I'm sorry?
     
    • Brofist x 8
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 3
    • Funny x 2
    • Goldfist x 1
    • Agree x 1
    • Salute x 1
    ^ Top  
  10. Murkgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Murk
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    Parrots:
    9,942
    Daniel Bill the term 'agenda' and its various uses is a meme here (and a button).

    It was coined when there were nefarious forces seeking to manipulate the brofist market and their treasonous ways were brought to light. The brofist agenda still lurks, never you doubt, for the price of a fair and free brofist market is eternal sperging vigilance.

    edit: repeat wording
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 6
    ^ Top  
  11. Daniel Billgender: ⚧ DemiurgExMachina Developer

    Daniel Bill
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2017
    Parrots:
    58
    Location:
    Frankfurt/Main, Germany
    Oh, thanks for clearing that up!

    Well... if you say so!
     
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 5
    • M'lady M'lady x 1
    ^ Top  
  12. huskarlsgender: ⚧ Novice

    huskarls
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    Parrots:
    15
    Hand placing encounters is really important, I can always tell when they just take a map and copy paste some mobs with no direction for the combat. POE's big problem is they have some idea guys make six dialogue choices, record a series of lore based dialogue before and during the quest, then on the actual area they just spam whatever despite all the effort every where else. Compare that to blackguards where it's almost like a puzzle game with the combat.

    Also dragon age 1 has six years of development and is much more polished
     
    ^ Top  
  13. Kyl Von Kullgender: ⚧ Literate

    Kyl Von Kull
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2017
    Parrots:
    39
    Location:
    New York City
    You had me at Nietzsche... backed!

    I wish this period got more attention in mass media (or niche media). There's a ton of great content in Herodotus and Thucydides.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  14. VentilatorOfDoomgender: ⚧ RPG Codex Staff Patron

    VentilatorOfDoom
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2009
    Parrots:
    7,492
    Location:
    Deutschland
    I backed the Socialist tier but only because there was no National Socialist tier (wtf?) and so Socialist was the closest. Still, I don't care about appearing in the credits unless there is a Nationial Socialist section.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Salute Salute x 2
    • Racist Racist x 2
    • Doggy Doggy x 1
    ^ Top  
  15. Kyl Von Kullgender: ⚧ Literate

    Kyl Von Kull
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2017
    Parrots:
    39
    Location:
    New York City
    Since this is being made in Deutschland, I'm pretty sure Daniel Bill could get in trouble for doing that. I don't know if national socialism in its entirety is illegal, or if it's just the NSDAP, but their government is kind of touchy about people doing anything that could potentially be conceived as pro fascist. For understandable reasons.

    As an aside, why does the only decent RPG site on the web seem to tilt so hard right (albeit with plenty of obvious exceptions)? Reminds me of that Norman Spinrad book about Hitler as a hack science fiction author, The Iron Dream.
     
    • it is a mystery it is a mystery x 2
    ^ Top  
  16. JarlFrankgender: ⚧ I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Parrots:
    21,471
    Location:
    卐 The Cyberreich 卐
    Because fascists have good taste.
     
    • Salute Salute x 1
    ^ Top  
  17. Graukengender: ⚧ Prophet Patron

    Grauken
    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Parrots:
    838
    Location:
    Fragrant Harbour
    Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech
  18. JarlFrankgender: ⚧ I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Parrots:
    21,471
    Location:
    卐 The Cyberreich 卐
    [​IMG]
     
    • Salute Salute x 3
    • Shit Shit x 1
    ^ Top  
  19. Vladimuargender: ⚧ Barely Literate

    Vladimuar
    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2017
    Parrots:
    2
    [​IMG]

    nazis definitely have style
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  20. Kyl Von Kullgender: ⚧ Literate

    Kyl Von Kull
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2017
    Parrots:
    39
    Location:
    New York City
    They do always seem to get the best outfits.
     
    ^ Top  
  21. Lurker Kinggender: ⚧ Self-Ejected The Real Fanboy

    Self-Ejected
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Parrots:
    1,865,419
    Well... it will be a shitty pretentious game then and I don't need to follow this up. Thank you for clearing that up!
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • retadred retadred x 1
    • Shit Shit x 1
    • :M :M x 1
    ^ Top  
  22. oasis789gender: ⚧ Arcane

    oasis789
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Parrots:
    4,432
    :excellent:
    I was very satisfied with this interview even if some of the answers made me hmm a little.

    If this is your goal then I think it's important that the factions and ideologies in the game don't map too neatly onto contemporary politics, even if, as you point out, there are close parallels. The politicization of classics (see Publius Decius Mus and his Flight 93 essay) has really poisoned that discipline in the public eye. Basically, keep it subtle.

    Surprised that this didn't get further elaborated upon in the interview. Having read the campaign page a couple times, I'm still unclear about what this Benjamin is on about.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  23. aratukgender: ⚧ Savant

    aratuk
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2013
    Parrots:
    290
    It could be as simple a correlation as the willingness of people to unforgivingly point out and attack what they don't like. "No, I don't respect your opinion, or you. Fuck you."

    Maybe sometimes it requires intolerance to maintain high standards.

    RPG criticism by a bunch of wannabe thugs.

    :discohitler:
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  24. Daniel Billgender: ⚧ DemiurgExMachina Developer

    Daniel Bill
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2017
    Parrots:
    58
    Location:
    Frankfurt/Main, Germany
    Great!

    I started marking all the pages where stories are told which we could use in the game. It ended up beeing enough to do several games about it...

    Thanks for your support! I think national socialism is - as you said - kind of socialism. Moreover you'll find all the national socialistic principles you propably support, like "Volk", "Reich", "Blut & Boden", "Meine Ehre heißt Treue", "Führerstaat", Social Darwinism and many more, in the game!
    If it really means something to you and since your profile picture is awesome - we could divide the socialists into "internationalist socialists" and "Völkische Sozialisten" (don't know atm how to translate "völkisch". Comes from Volk - the people).

    Thats absolutely true imo.

    You disagree that Platons Politeia is a work of social science? No passive aggression. I really am interested what your arguments would be!
    I could understand it regarding CG Jung and Freud, but wouldnt you also agree, that psychology and the understanding of a humans behaviour is part of explaining how society works?

    Thanks for your feedback. This certainly will be one of our largest challenges regarding the games development, but it really was our intention to keep it subtle.

    I can totally understand that. I needed several months and I am still unsure if I understand it in total.
    Basically it is about contradicting the supposedly christian influenced way of percieving the idea of history in most of the western historical works. Benjamin thought that the european-american understanding of history was heavily influenced by the eschatological view of time in the middleages - seeing history as something that started at X and ends at Y - starts with the genesis and ends with the apocalypse. So as a "bad" historian you would say: first comes the stone age, later there are simple civilizations, then there were the Persians, later the greec city states, after that Alexanders archetypical empire, followed by the Roman Empire and so on. Benjamin stated that our way of percieving history like this would make us blind for the real historicity, that lies in the single historical event.
    For example a community member asked how Frida Kahlo could be explained to appear in the game:
    my response was:
    This way you have the core of history, something you can use scientifically - without claiming that every historical event has to be seen sepereated from others - what is true for history (not historicity) and why it couldnt be seen as a at least theoretically measurable science, without Benjamins work. In my opinion at least.

    Very sorry for all the english mistakes I propably did, but I think you all can undertstand that explaining it in english could be even hard for a native speaker.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  25. Reapagender: ⚧ Doom Preacher

    Reapa
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2009
    Parrots:
    1,346
    Location:
    Germany
    there is indeed no honor in sugarcoating shit.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  

(buying stuff via the above buttons helps us pay the hosting bills, thanks!)