RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[Mustawd]

Sounds like some people at Obsidian are wolves in sheep's clothing. And we all know how much Chris Avellone hates wolves.

Holy shit. Ur just an ant. How are you even trying to give an opinion? Helton, I might as well ask the bacteria on my counter for advice. FFS.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

I think what I find exasperating is that these people front like informal, relaxed, progressive, super with-it gaming nerds who appreciate the fans and even let the fans get in on the action a little bit, but then instantly transmogrify into conservative Japanese businessmen with their loaf loppers clenched tighter than an over-torqued lug nut whenever shit gets real or a dime is on the line.

Really underlines the fact that that superficial shit is just a set of lifestyle accessories.

TBH, it's on us for consistently buying into the image they're projecting rather than admitting to ourselves that it's all business. I think most of the Obsidian guys really are gaming nerds who like to interact with their audience, but they're still doing it mainly for marketing purposes. Just like how a prostitute can enjoy having sex with her clients, but that will never be the point of the exercise for her.

And also like the noble prostitute, the moment someone fucks with their revenue stream or their rep, the time for a relaxed, friendly interaction is over and they get real serious, real fast. Nothing wrong with that: business is business. Nobody at Obsidian makes games as a hobby. They're working. We fool ourselves when we pretend otherwise, the same way some men convince themselves that a hooker really, truly likes them (she may even enjoy their company, but she's got a job to do and that takes precedence).

 

[Chris Avellone]

Like I said, I'd have liked to just solve it between us but it was well too late for that. I didn't like that it escalated...

I may post a longer critique to this in the Eternity Codex forums, since this is an Eternity thing, including how to approach narrative management in general.

For the rest of this, though, it’s indicative of the overall process and pipelines in place, some of which Eric is not responsible for or even knew about.

Get ready for a lot of carriage returns. Also tldr; this is an example of a flawed process in place.

Based on the fragment quoted in your post, I’ll take that as a, “yes, I agree with the points the fragment is referencing.”

As for the rest of your response, I can sense the frustration. I’m trying to feel bad for your sacrifice and overtime – and under different circumstances, I would.

But if you scripted and implemented something you didn’t even review (especially when it’s 10x easier and faster to make comments and edits before implementing, let alone fixing those same errors, not to mention it’s part of a Creative Lead’s job), well, that’s on you.

It’s not what I would have done – and if I had, I would accept the responsibility for reworking the elements. That's not even a game industry lesson, it's a life lesson.

If it’s easier to blame me for putting the cart before the horse, all right, but I don’t know what else to tell you except that sympathy wasn’t the emotion I felt reading this, only confusion (“well… why did you do it that way then?”).

I’ll be blunt and say sympathy certainly wasn’t the emotion the other people doing overtime and sacrifices for the narrative felt, and I’m not even talking about the Tyranny team - but the sub-leads on Eternity who weren’t in support of it, either.

In those cases, however, I told them they should bring it up with you and give you a chance to address it before escalating it to me (which I consider bad form, as it was sometimes clear they just wanted an excuse to tell you “an owner said you were wrong”).

But even if that didn’t work out, they shouldn’t take it to me – it should go to the Lead Designer next and get his take, and so on and so forth. Some had, but not all.

Other Thoughts!

Although you’ve blamed me for this in the past, it certainly wasn’t my decision not to give you additional support or personnel to get things done in a timely manner – but one issue with being an owner of a multi-owner company is you get to share the blame for all owner decisions, even ones you have no idea have been made.

If it were up to me, I’d have look for ways to downscope (like with the intermittent VO) and if that failed, sacrificed funds to get the team to a proper size to do the game properly, and I’ve said as much about sacrifice in the past – it’s an investment for the future, and it reduces bugs and overtime.

I don’t think any developer should be working more than 40 hours a week, and if they are, the pipeline is likely mismanaged, overly ambitious, has feature-itis or tweak-itis, or is broken in some other respect. It may also be the fault of the actual developer to put more content in than intended, or doing work outside their discipline and/or that's clearly too much for them.

It’s unfortunate the PoE editor can’t handle chunk deletions well if it wasted that much time – the edits I provided were chunked accordingly. I doubt that’s a programmer oversight as the programmer who worked on the dialogue editor while I was at Obsidian I’ve always thought was exceptional and did a great job (I’ll leave him nameless to keep him out of this, but he knows who he is).

As mentioned in this thread ("MF", I believe, I don't know how to mark his user name because I am old), it seems odd for a pipeline to be unable to do that – but I’m not familiar with how exactly you did it or what process you used except that you specifically promised you would handle all the scripting so I could return to Tyranny. I took you at your word.

I do feel in light of PoE1, being able to do chunk deletions easily might have benefited the narrative presentation.

But before you think I’m blaming you for PoE1’s overall word count with that last sentence, I’m not. The over-abundance of text in general is a larger issue. Sure, I can edit my text, but for the rest, something else is going on. So let’s get to word count in general.

For example, according to localizers, PoE2’s word count alone ended up double the word count expected and double the amount Obsidian budgeted for. This has nothing to do with VO, this is word count. This also seemed to be a surprise to some.

So to be clear, it’s not all on you for too much wordage for PoE1 or even PoE2. You did a companion for PoE2. I didn’t work on PoE2. It is a larger problem across both games that was unaddressed. I suspect the lead/project lead for PoE2 was lectured for going over the word count budget, but I could be wrong.

If those figures are accurate – and they may not be - the word count bloat would have become worse when VO entered the picture, which was hinted by the team as not being their decision, but instead dictated by upper management close to the game’s end date. If it was upper management, ideally, they’d be ready to accept the budget costs involved with that decision vs. blaming someone else. I’ve already made my thoughts on VO budgeting known, but it’s expensive and it can be wasteful.

Still, to be fair, even with regards to the word bloat, they may have been able to do cuts to PoE2 word count at the end, I hope (brevity helps as well as being open to large edits). If so, I strongly suspect PoE2’s lead would take responsibility for going over budget vs. blaming someone who edited his work as soon as he was aware of his boss’s requests, especially if that person editing his own work was an owner and technically their superior.

Overall, I’d take all these examples as a lesson of overall pipeline dysfunction and poor communication up and down management through the sub-leads and back again – this is just a symptom of a much larger problem that’s either dictated, done as a de facto routine by senior employees or leads, or never discussed at all, like it was in this case.

The only thing I feel wrong with this is supporting it and saying it’s okay. That it’s good enough. That it’s acceptable. That it’s forgivable. People can be forgiven, but surrendering to the process can’t be. If the process is a problem, it’s something that should be fixed. If not, it becomes disheartening and damaging.

Subscribers to a broken system don’t elicit any sympathy from me – it’s their choice. If you’re supporting a flawed pipeline and flawed process – including one that may include several problems of your own making – and if you can do nothing to change it, then it’s best to remove yourself from that pipeline.

 

[Prime Junta]

Anthony just said that a lot of Chris' post is inaccurate.

Well, if he lied than that's just monumentally stupid, not the least because it opens up for a libel case. It's not really like he is in a position of power here, he is a freelancer dependending on his good name to get work. Shitting on previous employers in an untruthful manner just prior to an important release is not conductive to getting more freelance work...

"Inaccurate" does not mean "lied."

Chris said a fair bit about Pillars development and the cuts to Durance/GM. He gave one side of a messy situation, and the bare facts as we know it aren't really consistent with Chris being 100% blameless about it. For one thing, nobody's denied that he was given a word count, and that he then massively exceeded said word count. That's bound to be a major PITA in a down-to-the-wire project like P1, more so if it hits at a really inopportune time as Eric says it did. Not what a team player does.

I have no doubt whatsoever that Chris's account is inaccurate -- not because he's lying about it, but because he's an involved party telling his side of the story several years after the fact, having suffered some really nasty shit afterwards. Perhaps more will come out about that later.

But, and this is the crucial bit, that's just usual office bullshit that happens all over the place. It's not the damning part at all. The damning part is how Obsidian treated him subsequently: the NDA/noncompetition agreement they pressured him to sign, and that they somehow managed to get him to give up his shares in the company with no compensation, and that, knowing his family situation. That is just unacceptable and the Obsidian "senior management" needs to be held to account for it.

----> tangent which I prolly shouldn't go on as I don't like to share personal information here at all, you fucking stalkers

We're in a superficially similar situation where I work. One of the founders decided to quit, after growing increasingly disgruntled and isolated over several years, which of course manifested in his work and general behaviour. Thing is, the butthurt was contained. Some of us are sad to see him go, others are relieved, some are a mix of the two. But the senior management dealt with the situation professionally, he negotiated his severance without being put under pressure about it, and he ended up staying another couple of months so he could wrap up his work and transfer his responsibilities to his successors in a reasonable manner. And we're a for-profit company too, operating in a massively competitive industry. So yes it can be done differently.

edit: ninja'ed by Chris, my life is now complete

 

[Infinitron]

For example, according to localizers, PoE2’s word count alone ended up double the word count expected and double the amount Obsidian budgeted for.

Chris dude are you stalking PoE2's development

Roguey meet your match

 

[One-and-a-half-Ivan]

this thread kills me

 

[Haba]

Preview of the Big Board in the Obsidian War Room tomorrow:

Mandatory company exercise, rate MCA posts "shit"?

 

[Latro]

PoE2's lead, who is this masked man?

 

[Junmarko]

Everyone needs to have this playing while reading MCA's posts.

 

[Rivmusique]

https://ytcropper.com/cropped/ZV5ae966b7c642b

 

[Sensuki]

PoE2's lead, who is this masked man?

Narratively, Carrie I think.

 

[ColonelTeacup]

For example, according to localizers, PoE2’s word count alone ended up double the word count expected and double the amount Obsidian budgeted for.

Chris dude are you stalking PoE2's development

Roguey meet your match

Like in a messy relationship, sometimes you can't help but check how the other is doing perhaps. Or just a general gauge of progress without him? Could also be lurking this place simply funnels the information to you in the end. I'm constantly reading things i've no interest in myself when I come here.

 

[Infinitron]

PoE2's lead, who is this masked man?

Narratively, Carrie I think.

He said "his". Clearly talking about Josh.

 

[Quillon]

PoE2's lead, who is this masked man?

Does MCA hold any grudge/bad feelings against Sawyer? This is the only missing bit in my canvas.

I think there is competitive tension(if its a thing) at the least. MCA has been very reluctant to refer his name, ignoring his existence when asked about Deadfire etc. while Josh gives credit to him whenever it comes up. But they don't speak to each other since the departure it seems.(Which could have been caused by what Efens said to MCA after the departure :D)

 

[Prime Junta]

Subscribers to a broken system don’t elicit any sympathy from me – it’s their choice. If you’re supporting a flawed pipeline and flawed process – including one that may include several problems of your own making – and if you can do nothing to change it, then it’s best to remove yourself from that pipeline if you can do nothing to change it.

Process is a bitch to change. It has massive inertia because every single person has developed their own workflow and changing it is unpleasant.

I would ask Chris Avellone though: as one of the founders, what did you do to shape and improve that process? You were there from the start. You were one of the people best-positioned to push through process reforms before shit got completely out of hand. What's your responsibility for the process?

From where I'm standing, it looks a lot like you failed to effect meaningful process improvements, and then retreated to your cubicle to play your war requiem while everybody else was going about their bumbling chaotic process. And now you're being pretty hard on Eric for failing to accomplish the changes you failed to accomplish from a higher spot up the totem pole. That's not entirely fair in my opinion.

 

[Latro]

PoE2's lead, who is this masked man?

Narratively, Carrie I think.

He said "his". Clearly talking about Josh.

i-impossible...going over the word count isn't balanced at all...

 

[One-and-a-half-Ivan]

Jeez, it's like 'pick your mommy or your daddy' situation all over again.

P.S. Since mommy can't really do 'good morning son' it's an obvious choice.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

PoE2's lead, who is this masked man?

Narratively, Carrie I think.

He said "his". Clearly talking about Josh.

I read that as meaning, "in your shoes, Josh would be a mensch about this kind of issue."

Any idea who the programmer he references is?

I doubt that’s a programmer oversight as the programmer who worked on the dialogue editor while I was at Obsidian I’ve always thought was exceptional and did a great job (I’ll leave him nameless to keep him out of this, but he knows who he is).

Probably too much to hope that he's talking about TimCain.

 

[laclongquan]

Be present and accounted for in this winner page of this winner thread.

Damnit! Late by a post.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I don’t think any developer should be working more than 40 hours a week, and if they are, the pipeline is likely mismanaged, overly ambitious, has feature-itis or tweak-itis, or is broken in some other respect. It may also be the fault of the actual developer to put more content than intended, or doing work outside their discipline or that's clearly too much for them.

This.

Overtime always means one thing and one thing only - Project Management has failed at managing the project.

the word count bloat would have become worse when VO entered the picture, which was hinted by the team as not being their decision, but instead dictated by upper management close to the game’s end date.

Yes! "The decision to do this amount of VO was made at the owner level and was made after most of the writing had already been done." - Josh on tumblr I was sure he was looking to emphasize "I'm not responsible for anything that results from this!"

I strongly suspect PoE2’s lead would take responsibility for going over budget vs. blaming someone who edited his work as soon as he was aware of his boss’s requests, especially if that person editing his own work was an owner and technically their superior.

Which I think has happened already? I remember it mentioned, though I don't remember where, that Josh asked for additional funding.

The only thing I feel wrong with this is supporting it and saying it’s okay. That it’s good enough. That it’s acceptable. That it’s forgivable. People can be forgiven, but surrendering to the process can’t be. If the process is a problem, it’s something that should be fixed. If not, it becomes disheartening and damaging.

Of course I'm not familiar enough with the specific case, but I know that it's always the developers' task to push for their interests within the company and in front of management.

It's actually a form of help for management - you are better off communicating unpleasant realities than grinding your teeth until at some point you boil over and take the most radical decision - leave the company. This is the worst outcome for everyone.

But if as an employee you keep quiet about organizational things that don't agree with you, discomfort you, or make your work harder for no benefit to the final quality of what you're working on -- don't expect management to come and ask you explicitly "Are you feeling ok? Is this or that comfortable for you?" This will never happen. It's down to you to call out when there are organizational issues.

I'm curious, however, how does this stand with Chris' unique position of being both a co-owner and a developer. He is subordinated as a designer to people who are subordinated to himself in his other role of co-owner.

 

[Infinitron]

Probably too much to hope that he's talking about TimCain.

Perhaps it's PoE's "Tools Programmer", David Szymczyk: http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,62899/ (not named because of impossible to spell last name?)

 

[ColonelTeacup]

Jeez, it's like 'pick your mommy or your daddy' situation all over again.

P.S. Since mommy can't really do 'good morning son' it's an obvious choice.

Have the codex wars finally begun? I am eager to fell Joshenites with my axe.

 

[Tacgnol]

It seems pretty clear that Obsidian has terrible management. I've always thought it, but this thread definitely confirms it.

Those glassdoor reviews are looking more accurate by the post.

 

[Carnarium]

Chris and Josh, this song is for you:

 

[Haba]

Jeez, it's like 'pick your mommy or your daddy' situation all over again.

P.S. Since mommy can't really do 'good morning son' it's an obvious choice.

Have the codex wars finally begun? I am eager to fell Joshenites with my axe.

Just farming faction rep points still, plot has not progressed far enough.