Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Rosh speaks on Followind

Discussion in 'RPG News & Content' started by Vault Dweller, Jul 13, 2004.

  1. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    Tags: Bethesda Softworks; Fallout 3

    <a href=http://www.nma-fallout.com>NMA</a> has posted <b>Rosh</b>'s opinion on that <b>Fallout 3</b> mess that <a href=http://www.bethsoft.com>Bethesda</a>'s gotten into.
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    <blockquote>It's funny that some morons try to take this "you're just trashing Bethesda" route. That is really just a sad plea for attention by someone who desperately wants some relevance to the discussion and use some trolling method to achieve such (or really haven't read a damn thing and posted their own hallucinogenic-induced version of events), as they are mentally unable to comprehend that we're commenting on the fact that Fallout and Morrowind are leagues apart in design. I'm not talking good or bad here. The design, on so many levels, is extremely different. While I could imagine a TES game that was developed like Fallout, it wouldn't be TES. The same could be said about Fallout being made into an action game...well, we've seen FOT and F:POS.
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    Does Bethesda need to try for strike three, where the franchise is likely completely killed off because Fallout now resembles Morrowind, is no longer the CRPG that they expected from the title name, and the Morrowind fans would rather have Morrowind? What Pete said has a lot of more substance than the vague "It won't be Morrowind with guns" claim another Bethesda person made. I've heard enough "It will be Fallout, don't worry"
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    Give us the truth instead of the vague crap, Bethesda. Why did you buy the license, when it wasn't something you seem to prefer in development? Are you intending on keeping to Fallout's style, or should we just stop bothering to cover up this next example of "developers too naive for their own good who try to change a formula from what the fans like". Ultima 8 wasn't too far ago, folks, and neither was Ultima IX. Neither were the examples in the X-COM series as well.
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    If it was to make a quick buck, you might get a few sales from the more curious Fallout and TES fans, but if you haven't paid attention to the Fallout license lately, you're in a world of hurt if that's so. Fallout fans still remember FOT and F:POS. If you're going to try and interest them with the same tactic, or try to bring in "new blood", we've already seen what happens and it isn't too impressive, thank you. You would have probably saved yourself a lot of money by making a post-apocalyptic world of your own than raise the suspicions of everyone who has played the CRPGs with their eyes open and a good sense of game design.
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    Hmmm, notice why so many news sites picked up quickly upon this? It's because people do want Fo3, but they don't want a mere Morrowind mod, or anything of the similar. They are expecting the next Fallout CRPG, and it's not just lame easter eggs (Monty Python jokes were lame in the second one, for class in easter eggs, check out the first game instead), a post-apocalyptic wasteland, and being able to kill people that makes up Fallout. Fallout's design is distinctive and people enjoy it for what it is, they aren't like the Final Fantasy kiddies that will gobble up every release with the name in the title. Many of the news sites, including HomeLAN, remember the bullshit that was shoveled with F:POS by the devs.
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    I could easily name a plethora of design additions that would improve the Fallout world, including making the world interactivity more like Arcanum's, but none that would so drastically affect the Fallout franchise like changing the core aspects of the game. TB combat - the character system depends upon this, as does the playstyle and the point of calling it a CRPG; the isometric or maybe an iso-locking/adjustable viewpoint, to preserve the graphical pulpish feel to the game; the SPECIAL system, which is integral to the Fallout universe as anything; the fact that Fallout is a CRPG, not an action dungeon crawler like Morrowind. When I say "CRPG", I don't mean a publisher or game store's idiotic "definition" of increasing stats. I mean like a P&P RPG, as was intended.
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    (Hell, even those responsible for True Crime have a load of bullshit on the back of their box. Spot the funny, when the "RPG-style" is by playing a mini-game and getting a prize...just like most of every other action game out there.)
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    It's not just a setting to throw around, Fallout CRPG implies many things, and if you think I'm bad, at least I am polite enough to point out how someone has or might have their head up their ass.
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    The ball's now in your court, Bethesda.</blockquote>
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    Nothing to add. Discuss!
     
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  2. triCritical Erudite

    triCritical
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    Uh, Rosh isn't exactly Dave Gaider. So how slow was it today.

    /me runs from the death claw.

    On a serious note, his sentiments resemble my own. I wonder how hard it would be for BethSoft to show off its creative gonads, and see if they could make a CRPG, that wasn't Morrowind. The more MW comparisons I hear the more saddened I become.
     
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  3. Volourn Pretty Princess Pretty Princess

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    More proof that rosh is an idiot. Typical junk by a typical fool. Hahaha. I'd deal with the substance of his post... if there was any substance...
     
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  4. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

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    What we post as news are opinions. Opinions of GameSpy folks, opinions of IGN, opinons of every retard with a game site, etc. Rosh's opinions are more interesting, imo, besides, this particular post represents a well written summary of what we've been discussing all day.
     
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  5. triCritical Erudite

    triCritical
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    Takes one to know one.
     
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  6. Volourn Pretty Princess Pretty Princess

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    Yes, yes it does which makes you and I both idiots since you recognized me as an idiot pretty quick.
     
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  7. plin Liturgist

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    I agree with some/most of the second half.
     
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  8. taks Liturgist

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    oooh, tricrit, you set yourself up for that little bit of pwnage :) if anything vol is self depricating...

    rosh's last statement is the truth... i would have expected him to be a bit more bitter, though again, perhaps the saga has given him the "whatever, we can only hope" attitude...

    taks
     
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  9. Transcendent One Liturgist

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    I completely agree, and I like the style too. Shows the fabois a thing or two.
     
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  10. taks Liturgist

    taks
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    commentary on our own commentary now... it's getting DEEP.
    taks
     
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  11. Diogo Ribeiro Erudite

    Diogo Ribeiro
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    A bit too emotive, but a good point nonetheless.
     
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  12. space captain Liturgist

    space captain
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    its safe to say that the game WILL NOT be "Fallout 3" in reality - only in name... much like a tribute or something like this...

    but that doesnt mean it has zero potential to be a good game...

    although Fallout IS the last bastion of TRUE cRPG gaming... so perhaps we are fucked after all...

    at least Troika is still around
     
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  13. suibhne Erudite

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    I think we call that "metacommentary." It's a long way down this rabbit-hole.

    I'm not sure Rosh said anything new, but sure, he's on target. The real point isn't that people are reacting to this news in the absence of any certain knowledge; rather, it's that Bethesda isn't acting as if they realize the magnitude of the license they bought. In terms of gaming culture, Fallout is a BFD, much bigger than TES will ever be.
     
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  14. TFVanguard Liturgist

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    Well, maybe Bethesda will see all this, and decide the best option is to simply hold onto the name and just kill the franchise. That way, no one would have a reason to complain , right? :P
     
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  15. Spazmo Erudite

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    Indeed. That's what I was hoping would happen: FO would stay dead.
     
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  16. Crichton Erudite

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    out of curiosity, why was the TB combat an important part of fallout for anyone? I enjoyed fallout, but I felt the combat was nothing, but a chore since I could only command one unit, so it always seemed to go something like this-

    Start of Turn
    Vault Dweller blasts target in the eyes with best rifle available
    Sulik does something stupid
    Lenny runs away screaming (gotta love lenny)
    Opponents Turn
    Vault Dweller blasts target in the eyes with best rifle available......

    Without being able to combine arms against the enemy, ie coordinate my attacks by commanding all of my units instead of just the one, any sort of tactics were a forlorn hope. I had exactly the same problem with arcanum (or for that matter, NWN), the tactical setup is ok, but what good does that do if the computer gets to make 2/3 of my decisions for me?

    Since it looks like FO3 isn't going to include any companions at all (morrowind didn't), it's probably a moot point, but why make combat turn based if you only get to command one charecter? I'd just as soon have it be real time to get it over quicker so I can go back to playing some part of the game that works.
     
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  17. TFVanguard Liturgist

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    Well hell, they should stop making games at all then. Wouldn't want to ruin your day with new product or anything. Best let you live in the closet with all your DOS and C64 diskettes, right? :)
     
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  18. Spazmo Erudite

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    Hardy har har. The thing is that developers can feel free to make as many really bad games as they want--if I hadn't wasted about $50 on Morrowind, I'd be glad they made those awful games since it gives me a good laugh. But when they come along and try to make a Fallout game... that's different.

    Besides, it's better in general to have games made with original settings and such than using an existing setting--especially when its someone else's existing setting. Re-using settings just gets you trouble. Mostly you get legal trouble from the guys letting you use that license (see Interplay and the BG fiasco or Troika and the Teen rating forced on them [not to say that was the only cause of ToEE's troubles; that's another discussion]), but you also get shit from the fans (see every Fallout game since FO2). If you make your own original game, you're in your own damn sandbox and can do whatever you want. If I one day decided I wanted to make a Fallout game--I wouldn't. I'd make FAILSAFE: AN AFTER THE BOMB RPG (I'm not sure who came up with that title originally, but it wasn't me). It'd be a lot like Fallout except it wouldn't be. That way I could make the game I wanted to without worrying about this crazy 'ol fanbase. Wouldn't have to dish out ridiculous sums of money to get a license, either.
     
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  19. mr. lamat Liturgist

    mr. lamat
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    when the little lady-boi takes the sailor cock out of his mouth, he actually says something poignant now and then.

    i'm a little more optomistic than he is though.
     
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  20. Diogo Ribeiro Erudite

    Diogo Ribeiro
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    Because it went hand in hand with the SPECIAL system which was built with turn-based in mind. That, and like other TB systems, has the advantage of presenting combat situations where the players can properly plan.

    Though certain things in the system could likely be tweaked.
     
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  21. TFVanguard Liturgist

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    I'll shock you in that I agree with the assesment, Spazmo. I don't think Bethesda was wise in snagging the Fallout name. It seems to have more baggage than value these days, and the game is falling into obscurity (it's been /how/ long since the first one?)

    A 'clone' game would have made more sense, given them more freedom, and elimiante the 'it must have SPECIAL' arguments right off.
     
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  22. Kamaz Liturgist

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    TFVanguard, youre an arsehole. Its clear that you have no interest in Fallout or Morrowind or role-playing at all, youre ust bitching about popular argument because its in the spotlight and standing in the wrong side - oposing Codex - puts you in a special role, draws the attention. Of course, maybe it is not so, but your responses/comments makes me think so.
    Why? Because you keep comenting even having nothing to say. And now you offend people saying really nothing. If you want to resist Bethesda - feel free to do it - but hey, youre not doing this. Instead, you just have to put shaloow/sarcastic comments on anything members say. Thats their point of view and they have their point, that is sure. You cannot denie that Bethesda's cRPG style is way different of what Fallout1,2 featured. Name me worthy examples where a company have made different cRPGs than any of their production before, succesfully introduced new style. Name me any title that has not been continued by its authors but others and is been as good (similar to..) as in the beginning. I can recall only bad examples. And that is the reason I would be worried about Fallouts fate.
     
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  23. TFVanguard Liturgist

    TFVanguard
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    Never denied that, though I prefer 'asshole', it's more coarse.

    Oh my god, that's just fargin' hilarious. Fallout was one of my favorite games, honestly. I just know where it is in the grand scheme of things - it's now a niche product with a small but loyal following that really won't be pleased by anything Bethesda does with the franchise.

    They may put out a really good game, but it likely won't be what Fallout fans want. Sucks to be Bethesda.


    As far as opposing Codex.. I was unaware they had a hive mind.
     
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  24. Volourn Pretty Princess Pretty Princess

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    No. The arshole is Kamaz. Next.
     
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  25. Crichton Erudite

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    I prefer TB to real-time with a pause button when I'm actually commanding multiple units (though I've seen both done properly), but if you only get one measly charecter, what difference does it make? I never did any more planning in arcanum or fallout 1+2 than I did in NWN or morrowind, in fact of the five, NWN gets the award for planning b/c I at least thought about spell casting vs. melee when I played my cleric, with the other four it was just plain putting the hurt on with,
    morrowind-axe
    fallout 1+2 best rifle available (usually a plasma one)
    arcanum - pistol/rifle/mechanised gun/harm/melee weapon

    The only time planning ever entered into it is when I had to decided in arcanum between blowing 100+ units of ammo per turn using my mechanised gun or using my looking-glass rifle
     
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