Roguey vs the Grognards Thread

[Infinitron]

Smashing news, since inXile and Larian were unable to deliver what-I-would-consider-finished versions of their latest hits, I took the plunge and got Baldur's Gate with Tales of the Sword Coast. I'm going to evaluate it with baldurdash and convenience tweaks, preserving most of what Bioware shipped. I'm expecting a mostly-rote timesink, but it should be an interesting contrast to PoE.

This should be a bit better than Baldurdash: http://sasha-altherin.webs.com/baldursgatefixpack.htm

 

[CyberWhale]

Josh likes Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory Roguey ...

what are your thoughts on that game ?



pretty good fps too actually, required good tracking aim

I'm not Roguey, but it is worth mentioning that W:ET became one of the most balanced (and because of that reason one of the best ever) MP shooters after a couple of ET Pro mods.

 

[Sensuki]

Yeah E:T promod was sick, they did some cool shit, like even fixed the antilag calculation errors.

 

[Roguey]

Smashing news, since inXile and Larian were unable to deliver what-I-would-consider-finished versions of their latest hits, I took the plunge and got Baldur's Gate with Tales of the Sword Coast. I'm going to evaluate it with baldurdash and convenience tweaks, preserving most of what Bioware shipped. I'm expecting a mostly-rote timesink, but it should be an interesting contrast to PoE.

This should be a bit better than Baldurdash: http://sasha-altherin.webs.com/baldursgatefixpack.htm

Much thanks. I saw the Dudley fixes, but opted not to get them because they made too many changes I considered subjective (e.g. maybe Bioware broke a lot of those D&D rules on purpose and not through oversight).

With this do you know if I'll still need the Baldurdash text update? I read that it adds directions to a bunch of otherwise-pixel-hunt-only-hidden-items and I'd rather not deal with that, nor do I want to upgrade to the BG2 engine for highlighting since that also makes too many changes to suit me.

 

[Infinitron]

Smashing news, since inXile and Larian were unable to deliver what-I-would-consider-finished versions of their latest hits, I took the plunge and got Baldur's Gate with Tales of the Sword Coast. I'm going to evaluate it with baldurdash and convenience tweaks, preserving most of what Bioware shipped. I'm expecting a mostly-rote timesink, but it should be an interesting contrast to PoE.

This should be a bit better than Baldurdash: http://sasha-altherin.webs.com/baldursgatefixpack.htm

Much thanks. I saw the Dudley fixes, but opted not to get them because they made too many changes I considered subjective (e.g. maybe Bioware broke a lot of those D&D rules on purpose and not through oversight).

With this do you know if I'll still need the Baldurdash text update? I read that it adds directions to a bunch of otherwise-pixel-hunt-only-hidden-items and I'd rather not deal with that, nor do I want to upgrade to the BG2 engine for highlighting since that also makes too many changes to suit me.

Read the readme.

 

[Roguey]

Read the readme.

I did, it said it added some of the things from Baldurdash but didn't say anything about pixel-hunt directions.

 

[Infinitron]

Read the readme.

I did, it said it added some of the things from Baldurdash but didn't say anything about pixel-hunt directions.

To be honest, I'm not sure. There is such a hidden item at the beginning of the game, a diamond, so you can find out pretty quickly. But I don't remember which NPC tells you about it with Baldurdash.

 

[Sensuki]

BG1Tweaks would probably be a good choice as well. BG1Fixpack doesn't do much IIRC.

 

[Rivmusique]

Will this be another Roguey Retrospective?

 

[Roguey]

Will this be another Roguey Retrospective?

I'll write posts about it, but likely not submitting an official article since no one from BG is working on PoE. ToEE had Tim Cain.

Incidentally, even though Josh prepared me for the absurdity of the out-of-place Nietzsche quote, actually seeing it and the movie that followed was laugh-out-loud funny. Bioware, so pretentious.

Additionally I love how one of the voicesets makes you sound like a geriatric woman but then you get to the prologue text and it definitively states you're 20 years old. Also uh... aren't 20-year-old elves, dwarves, and gnomes still considered children?

 

[dukeofwhales]

I started reading the codex because of the IWD Roguey retrospectives, so I guess the codex has you to blame for that one.

Would appreciate a BG write up but understandable if you can't be bothered.

 

[Lhynn]

I started reading the codex because of the IWD Roguey retrospectives, so I guess the codex has you to blame for that one.

Yeah, i also registered on the codex to correct people.

 

[Roguey]

Let the record show that the Gnoll Stronghold is just as bad as any trash mob combat area in the Dragon Ages. Let's just copy and paste the same easily defeated group of gnolls over and over again why don't we. Also xvarts for flavor. I felt it necessary to make a special post just to complain about this. It's also really odd/amateurish how talking to Minsc and saying no thanks makes him immediately want to kill you. I thought this guy's alignment was good?

I'm mainly pressing on because I've heard good things about Durlag's Tower and I might as well see this at its best.

 

[tuluse]

I really BG is well regarded more for what it meant at the time than specific goodness it had. Though, a lot of people like the content sparsity. Isometric hiking simulator.

 

[Sensuki]

Don't forget the Carrion Crawlers, if you searched hard enough

 

[Clockwork Knight]

It's also really odd/amateurish how talking to Minsc and saying no thanks makes him immediately want to kill you. I thought this guy's alignment was good?

Chaotic Good, lololo wait, it's neutral good, joke ruined

To be honest, I'm not sure. There is such a hidden item at the beginning of the game, a diamond, so you can find out pretty quickly. But I don't remember which NPC tells you about it with Baldurdash.

There's also that ring that gives you extra casts of 1st or 2nd level spells a little ways to the north. It's behind a tree stump, I think. It's pretty broken for that stage so I'm not sure if you're ever told about it.

 

[Sceptic]

Ring of Wizardry. Doubles your level 1 slots. Completely breaks the first half of the game if you have a good mage. I don't think there's any in-game hint that it even exists, and since BG1 didn't have the Tab-highlight, the only ways to find it were to either pixel hunt everywhere, or to read the game files.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Let the record show that the Gnoll Stronghold is just as bad as any trash mob combat area in the Dragon Ages. Let's just copy and paste the same easily defeated group of gnolls over and over again why don't we. Also xvarts for flavor. I felt it necessary to make a special post just to complain about this.

The side-dungeons in vanilla BG1 are not very well done. You experienced the Gnoll Stronghold, but neither the Ulcaster School nor the Firewine Bridge end up playing much better.

Ulcaster is full of "French Vanilla" melee enemies (i.e. normal except for one on-hit ability and/or some resistances/immunities) and a few traps underground, but has hardly anything in the way of interesting area or encounter design.

Firewine was a good try. There are multiple entrances/exits to the underground complex, some of them from another map, a lot of sidequests and NPC interactions, especially topside. There's a few unique encounters and somewhat interesting scripted events. It's even rather difficult, with nasty traps and damaging enemies. Unfortunately, it's a total mess because of the way enemy respawns work combined with the extremely narrow passageways. Unless carefully micromanaged, your characters will wander around, trigger tons of spawns, and squishier ones will end up as crispy pincushions. I'm not nearly as critical as many when it comes to IE pathfinding, but this is certainly one area where it's hard not to notice.

It's also really odd/amateurish how talking to Minsc and saying no thanks makes him immediately want to kill you. I thought this guy's alignment was good?

He's a crazy berserker...what do you expect? Reason? Logic? Intelligence?

But seriously, effects of BG1 dialogues choices can be a little strange, often going against the player's expectations. Unsurprising for a freshman effort of this magnitude. You'll often have charisma checks succeed/fail without you knowing it, and some of the dialogue trees have "winning paths" that aren't at all obvious and probably not at all in-line with the "modern", Fallout-style, way in which dialogue should be handled.

I'm mainly pressing on because I've heard good things about Durlag's Tower and I might as well see this at its best.

If you like dungeon-crawling in the IE-style, it's about as good as it gets. Some dungeons in other games have better designed encounters, but none of them ever really evoked that classic dungeon feel in the way Durlag's Tower did. It's an enormous locale filled with traps, puzzles, and special enemies. Good stuff.

Aside from that, BG1 is surprisingly solid in the critical path. Overall, most of the content in it is of good quality, there's a lot less filler, and many of the critical path dungeons have lots of shortcuts or skippable content. Encounters, especially "bosses" tend to be against human opponents, often enemy parties, which is always fun.

The Nashkel mines are actually fun when you make a beeline to them, because they are clearly designed to be a level 1 dungeon for underequipped parties. Anything else will likely vitiate the experience.

As others have said, the Bandit Camp is handled really well. There's multiple ways to "find" it, and multiple resolution options depending upon how you get there.

Chapter 4 is an interesting take on the dungeon crawl, being a trek through multiple forested maps. What's cool about this is that unlike many cRPG dungeons (especially those without Wizardry-style sprawling labyrinths), you don't have to scour out some defined point, likely stairs or an elevator, to reach the next level, as the progression from map to map operates on the same logic as the rest of the game; get to the correct side of the map, input the travel command, and voila. It ends in a more traditional dungeon-crawl, though a pretty decent one (be on the lookout for hidden doors).

Chapter 5 is really fun, where you enter Baldur's Gate proper. Rooting around in the city is fun...you never know what you'll find barging into a house. Quests here are generally a lot more interesting, many of them having multiple paths/resolutions, and some even carrying noticeable in-game consequences (not to mention, certain actions taken before/during Chapter 5 can come into play). Some of the quests are really subtle, and well designed too; I really like the way the "Helm and Cloak" quest has multiple hooks and can be "resolved" without ever obtaining the journal entry. Also there is a lot of content packed into the Baldur's Gate maps.

Chapters 6 and 7 are pretty much the endgame. They're short, but have some interesting encounters, including a lot of action against enemy parties. The lowlight here is probably "The Maze" as it doesn't really work out in an isometric perspective and none of the filler creatures are all that interesting on their own at this point in the game.

 

[dukeofwhales]

Let the record show that the Gnoll Stronghold is just as bad as any trash mob combat area in the Dragon Ages. Let's just copy and paste the same easily defeated group of gnolls over and over again why don't we. Also xvarts for flavor. I felt it necessary to make a special post just to complain about this. It's also really odd/amateurish how talking to Minsc and saying no thanks makes him immediately want to kill you. I thought this guy's alignment was good?

I'm mainly pressing on because I've heard good things about Durlag's Tower and I might as well see this at its best.

A lot of the early part of BG is wandering around killing trash mobs with only 1 (or occasionally 2) interesting encounters per map. If you don't like it, you can mostly skip it, but a lot of people do enjoy the wilderness maps. Would I prefer the stuff in them was more interesting, sure, but you know, nostalgia.

I can't remember, have you played BG2? It has low amounts of pure trash combat and generally just has a very high concentration of interesting stuff.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I really BG is well regarded more for what it meant at the time than specific goodness it had.

At the time it meant decline from Ultima VII.

 

[Roguey]

Yeah I'm not getting any pixel-hunt hints but I decided to hell with it rather than risk breaking something. I can do without.

I can't remember, have you played BG2? It has low amounts of pure trash combat and generally just has a very high concentration of interesting stuff.

Yes. I thought it was all right, but it's more impressive considering its predecessor. The Dragonfall of its time.

 

[MicoSelva]

Roguey is playing BG1? This should be good.

My nostalgia for this game is so strong that I still like it more than BG2, despite Firewine and Gnoll fortress invoking nothing but rage memories.

I could go on and on but I will just sign under what Edward_R_Murrow already wrote in his post.

 

[Roguey]

Name-search reply

MrMarbles: what does Sawyer have tattooed on his forearms? Looks elvish

My left arm has the last three lines of Dante Gabriel Rossetti's poem Silent Noon:

Oh! clasp we to our hearts, for deathless dower,
This close-companioned inarticulate hour
When twofold silence was the song of love.

The right arm has a quote from Sallust's Bellum Catilinae where he describes Cato the Younger's address to the senate:

Qui mihi atque animo meo nullius umquam delicti gratiam fecissem, haud facile alterius lubidini male facta condonabam.

(As I had never, in my own conscience, excused myself for any wrongdoing, I found it hard to pardon the sins other men's passions led them to commit.)

The O on the left arm contains a man and woman holding an iris between them. The Q on the right arm contains the face of Cato the Younger. Both of the illustrations were drawn by Brian Menze.

is it true that Roguey wishes to sex Sawyer?

No, my obsessions tend to be platonic. It's extreme admiration.

Minor BG update to make this post game related: The difficulty ramped up enough in the Cloakwood Forest to make playing this thing actually enjoyable. Though it's completely expected coming from nerds, I like the Python-esque dialogues in the city itself. What I don't like is how the city is structured, having to unlock and go into every house on the off-chance there's someone with a sidequest inside, or how I have to sometimes make a stop in another map so I don't end up on the wrong side of a wall. BG2 was much better when it came to content placement and map design. Hell, even Fallout was better considering

Pretty amateur stuff, not distinguishing which buildings have Content in them and which don't. I know there's loot in all these houses, but I've been ignoring it for the most part and doing just fine.

 

[MrMarbles]

I feel like someone just walked in while I was choking the bishop, what is said in shitbox should probably stay in shitbox. Thanks for clearing it up though.

 

[Roguey]

And done with Baldur's Gate. Trigger warning for Benjanun Sriduangkaew: Cacti ahead.

The latter parts made up for the boring start. Pretty funny how Sensuki says he knows the outcome of a battle in Pillars of Eternity within the first few seconds, because that's how it was here; in other words, I'll see virtually no difference between Pillars and BG because Josh is catering to my playstyle.

It's also pretty funny how those amateurs at Bioware figured out nearly 20 years ago what those amateurs at inXile couldn't with Wasteland 2: the quantity of insta-hit high-damage grenades should be extremely limited (in BG's case it's fiery burning oils and explosive potions). Throwing the equivalent of six fireballs at a group at once is extremely funny, but not something that should be done with even semi-regularity.

This is that thing Josh wants to avoid:

To take the quest, you have to sass the quest-giver, even if it doesn't fit your character concept. And offending him cuts it off entirely, leading to a pointless reload (I mentioned on the last page how crazy it is that Minsc attacks you if you talk to him and turn down his quest; this was the era of saving before every conversation).

Thoughts on individual encounters:

I've read that the first wizard gives many newbs a lot of trouble; I killed him in two hits, the first making him panic.

The first fight I enjoyed was with that other mage bounty hunter in Nashkel, the one who can cast mirror image without interruption, casts horror and magic missile, and has those boots that add +5 AC to ranged weapons.

The one in that bandit tent was also good, with horror again and an archer with poison arrows.

Centeol's really only notable because those sword spiders attack a lot per round, making them more likely to get 20s against my nigh-unhittable AC.

Pretty much any encounter with spellcasters in the Cloakwood mines was fun. I particularly liked final-guy with his constant teleporting, protection from normal missiles, and mirror image.

Incidentally, the chance-of-interruption when traveling from Cloakwood to any non-Cloakwood area is way too high. It just forces you to tediously go square by square.

I kited Larze of course. High damage melee attacks that always hit, no thanks.

Those five ogre mages would have really been something if not for stinking cloud. I laughed when I saw that Bioware included arrows of ogre slaying in a store so bad (or caster-less) players could kill them.

The thief ambush with a spellcaster and fire-arrow archers, the party-vs-party fight in the inn where that other party helps you out, and the other party-vs-party fight at the Iron Throne: also fun.

That thing with the invisible stalkers, doom guards, and helmed horrors was probably the first time where I really had to think how to handle it since the layout of that room isn't to your advantage.

At this point I started TotSC content. Some of those mage fights in the maze were all right, the best was the three at the beginning. I lured them around the corner one by one.

I can see why a lot of people hate the lycanthrope island. It's demanding, but not in a fun way. Bioware liked that "innocent-seeming person asks for help but leads you into ambush" thing so much they did it twice. That ship where you immediately have to face a series of demanding fights in small cramped rooms? Ugh. A final boss that can only be hit by a very-limited number of specific weapons? Double ugh. I'm fortunate I didn't sell that bastard sword that does +3 against shapeshifters (and as Josh Sawyer would tell you, it doesn't even do that +3 against shapeshifters, the engine doesn't support it, and Black Isle had to add it themselves to Icewind Dale).

I pursued Bioware's first romance of course. It was all right, I like flirtation with minor/no consummation. Didn't like how the lazy bastard made me pick flowers just to give them back to me.

I completed Durlag's Tower without resting once. Of course it wouldn't have been possible without the semi-regular use of fireball and lightning wands and the dozens of health potions it drowns you in.

The battle horrors at the entrance have bullshit pumped up stats compared to RAW battle horrors, I checked.

The way that succubus at the top teleports and goes ethereal all the time just made her annoying to fight. I used a hard counter charge from the greenstone amulet (the only time I used it in fact), and a strength potion on one character to eventually take her down.

I like the environmental storytelling in the tower, but hate it when traps aren't signposted, because even with those thief potions and an Imoen who only had points in find/disable traps, it'd take too long, she'd get hurt from running into one, and I'd reload.

Those three hasted greater doppelgangers are a nasty welcoming committee to the first dungeon level. Likewise the four ghosts at the end who serve as a party-vs-party fight.

I didn't like the bullshit gotcha of those three doppelgangers on the second level who open with stinking cloud and cloudkill (which is pretty much instakill). Reload and run everyone past one of the now-open doors before they go hostile to take them out one-by-one.

On the third level, I killed one greater wyvern normally (with the use of a wand of paralyzation; got it on the second try) and then used the stone statue heroes to take out the other two. I left before they could go hostile.

The chess board was an interesting gimmick. This is where I did my multi-fireball thing.

I killed the demonknight with the use of haste, a strength potion, and tanking the one fireball he managed to let out. Overall, I didn't think it was the best dungeon ever, but it was all right.

It was unpleasant (in a good way) running into enemies who would start off by backstabbing my characters. Damn cultists.

That not-quite-instant-death thing Aec'Letec does is bullshit, so I countered him with bullshit of my own. First I had Coran drink an invisible potion, go down into the basement, and snipe every cultist down out of the view of the mage. Then he hid in shadows and went back up, where I buffed up everyone, sent them down, chunked the mage, used the paralyzation wand on Aec (which worked on the first try) followed by slaughter.

Of course almost everything else on the crit-path would be a breeze after all that expansion pack content. Two more party fights followed by Sarevok. I pulled all his underlings one-by-one until he was the only one left, deal with it.

I don't think any RPG could get away with such an abrupt ending cinematic today. Wow, even the Icewind Dales provided more closure.

I agree with Volourn when it comes to DA:O>BG, however BG does do combat pacing better. Granted, I didn't even come close to trying to do everything, but my killcount at the end was a little over 860, which is significantly lower than any other IE game except Torment. The only area I remember being annoyed by was the time-padding maze at the end (and thank goodness for clairvoyance). Pillars is going to top it no problem, and good riddance to hard counters.