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Roguey vs the Grognards Thread

Athelas

Arcane
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Jun 24, 2013
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Cain turns bad systems into legendary games
Uhm, the combat system is the best thing about ToEE - and arguably the only good thing about it (apart from aesthetics).

The encounters themselves however are the epitome of banality, therefore I can't really call ToEE a game with 'legendary combat'.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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Time for a Skyrim journal update: I picked it up again a while ago and now I think I'm near the final stretch of Dragonborn. All these new art assets are nicely weird and all, but the content's mediocre and disappointing compared to Dawnguard. Bog-standard situations with an awwwwwesome powers monty haul. Maybe something impressive will happen in the last quest.

The biggest problem in ToEE's combat is the bland encounter design.

Guess who's responsible for that.
Gary Gygax and Frank Mentzer. :P
 

TheGreatOne

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
1,214
You're still playing Skyrim? :prosper:Why play a game like D:OS, WL2, MM X, LoX, LoT2 or E:G when you can put another 60 hours into Skyrim?

The depravity of this individual knows no bounds.:kingcomrade:
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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You're still playing Skyrim?

I took an extended break, then came back. I'm going to take another after I kill Other Dragonborn.

Why play a game like D:OS, WL2, MM X, LoX, LoT2 or E:G when you can put another 60 hours into Skyrim?

The first two aren't ready, and I'm not interested in any of the latter. JA2: Unfinished Business is on my list of Skyrim-break games to play though.
 

TheGreatOne

Arcane
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Messages
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You aren't interested in games where it's actually possible to fail if you aren't playing well enough but you are so fascinated with a popamole game that you've played it through multiple times?:dead:

Also lol at implying D:OS isn't finished because a)hasn't stopped you before from playing a game and b)in case you haven't become illiterate from playing Skyrim for 400 hours, you can check from wikipedia that the release date of D:OS was "30 June 2014" and it's February of 2015 now. You might've also read that D:OS was picked GOTY in the codex poll. So if by your batshit crazy logic D:OS isn't ready yet, let's see how long it will take before you get to play one of Sawyer's games.

I single these fans out because they're willing to forgive silly bugs like meeting characters who walk into walls or occasionally float in mid-air. These fans realize that the game as a whole is greater than the sum of minor graphical anomalies. On the other hand, I simply can't ignore or forgive the game for crashing on me when I walk around the Mojave Wasteland; or for quests that simply can't be completed because of a game glitch; or for making my companions disappear when I need them the most during a battle
New Vegas was released in October of 2010 and the JSE patch was released in December 29 of 2011 (practically in 2012). New Vegas was practically unplayable during it's release date, where as 1 week after D:OS launch (when I started playing), I didn't run into a single glitch and had only 1 save crash during a 60+ hour playthrough. 7 days vs 436 days, one of the least buggy modern CRPG launches vs a complete trainwreck. So if 1 week=7 months that means you aren't allowed to play New Vegas until 2046. You need a liar tag as well.

It'll be interesting to see which arrives first, Sensuki's or Sawyer's Pillars of Eternity patch, and how long it'll take before PoE will be in a Roguey approved "ready" condition. Maybe in 2018 you'll be completely obsessed with Sensuki and call Sawyer a grognard dismissively as he's working with Romero on that much awaited Gauntlet: Seven Sorrows kickstarter project.
 

Roguey

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Josh said a JSawyer-style mod would be unnecessary.

JA:UB impressions: wow, those reviews weren't kidding when they said the opening is tuned way too high. I started on novice difficulty, spent most of my money on a group of 5 additional mercs with the best stats, but the range on our guns is lousy compared to the tough clustered group of seven on the first map. Flanking kinda works, but I'm not enjoying this. I'll give it a few more tries and, and will likely resort to restarting so I can hire some people with longer-range rifles (srsly bullshit if I have to hire specific people with specific weapons to comfortably beat the first fight), but I think I might end up abandoning this.

You aren't interested in games where it's actually possible to fail if you aren't playing well enough but you are so fascinated with a popamole game that you've played it through multiple times?

I've never completed Skyrim. I have finished the Dawnguard and Dragonborn questlines.

Also lol at implying D:OS isn't finished because a)hasn't stopped you before from playing a game and b)in case you haven't become illiterate from playing Skyrim for 400 hours, you can check from wikipedia that the release date of D:OS was "30 June 2014" and it's February of 2015 now. You might've also read that D:OS was picked GOTY in the codex poll. So if by your batshit crazy logic D:OS isn't ready yet, let's see how long it will take before you get to play one of Sawyer's games.

I want to play the D:OS with the best dialogues and balance. I doubt I'll play it twice.

New Vegas was released in October of 2010 and the JSE patch was released in December 29 of 2011 (practically in 2012). New Vegas was practically unplayable during it's release date, where as 1 week after D:OS launch (when I started playing), I didn't run into a single glitch and had only 1 save crash during a 60+ hour playthrough. 7 days vs 436 days, one of the least buggy modern CRPG launches vs a complete trainwreck. So if 1 week=7 months that means you aren't allowed to play New Vegas until 2046. You need a liar tag as well.

I played New Vegas on release and it was a mistake from which I learned. However, in December, they patched it into a "good enough"-condition, allowing me to complete it just fine by February 2011.

Sure, D:OS has been "good enough" for a while now, but I doubt I'll like it as much as New Vegas, so I want the best they can offer.

It'll be interesting to see which arrives first, Sensuki's or Sawyer's Pillars of Eternity patch, and how long it'll take before PoE will be in a Roguey approved "ready" condition. Maybe in 2018 you'll be completely obsessed with Sensuki and call Sawyer a grognard dismissively as he's working with Romero on that much awaited Gauntlet: Seven Sorrows kickstarter project.

PoE might be ready within a few months after release, we'll see. I'll accept "good enough."
 

Surf Solar

cannot into womynz
Joined
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Messages
8,828
You're still playing Skyrim?

I took an extended break, then came back. I'm going to take another after I kill Other Dragonborn.

Why play a game like D:OS, WL2, MM X, LoX, LoT2 or E:G when you can put another 60 hours into Skyrim?

The first two aren't ready, and I'm not interested in any of the latter. JA2: Unfinished Business is on my list of Skyrim-break games to play though.


What you think of JA2:UB ? I thought you don't like quasi-simulationist games?
 

Roguey

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What you think of JA2:UB ? I thought you don't like quasi-simulationist games?

One-post up above.

I can manage with systems I don't particularly like if the content's fine. I did go through seven tutorial missions and 11 main campaign missions of Deadly Games before I decided I had enough.
 

Surf Solar

cannot into womynz
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Ah sorry, I didn't see the post for some reason. Was just asking because I rarely see someone playing UB or talking about it on here.
That addon felt like a "story" campaign instead of more of the same from JA2. Don't remember it being hard though-

And yeah, hiring Lynx especially for that very reason is pretty silly.
 

Roguey

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I imagine it's not as difficult if you're importing your team's equipment load-out from JA2 but I don't have that luxury. :M
 

Roguey

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D-d-double posting.

I created a new party and pretty much solo'd that first battle with Lynx. Seriously. Fuck. this. game. More like Sir-Dreck.

LiRj7Eu.png


Though in all honesty he did get assistance in three places from one member.

rKUenmp.png


I guess it's proof that single-character turn-based combat can be enjoyable and moderately challenging, though it really limits your playstyle to playing it stealthy.
 

Roguey

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qjwixBO.png


I completed Unfinished Business. The balance was weird, but not unusual for a role playing game, in that it started off difficult, had a mostly-easy mid-game, and a difficult end. During the middle portion I was starting to regret my decision to set it to novice, but considering the end, I'm ultimately okay with how things turned out. Map-by-map impressions, skipping the first which I've already covered:

Guard post: Pretty easy just using two people for the most part. The armored sniper on the roof required using the whole team.

Forest: Still easy. It could get a bit rough with the long-range guys at the end, but a scoped sniper made em trivial.

Town 1: Still easy despite going up against 15 enemies. Sniping guys by shooting out through windows is super-fun. As an aside, I was disappointed with the white Canadian woman they got to voice a badly accented Asian woman, as well as the sexist description for batteries.

2Apfbte.png

I'm surprised Linda and Brenda let that through.

Town 2: A bit more demanding. It was fun tackling the guys clustered behind cover in the center of town with the roof sniper, as well as distracting a guy in a house so I could ambush him from behind.

Town 3: A small optional breather level that exists so you can get the best sniper rifle for a discount. The guys at the top had some range on them.

Forest 2: An even easier breather level.

Power plant: Another easy level; though I like how you're given a choice between blowing up the fan, leading to extra fights inside, or leaving one person behind so you can sneak the rest in. Better C&C than choosing whether or not to save some drowning kid.

Complex 1: And here's where difficulty ramps up. Close-quarters fighting in narrow corridors, and enemies with plenty of interrupts and grenades. Need that coated spectra armor with plates or any given enemy shot will do tens of damage.

Complex 2: More of the same. Grenade smoke everywhere. It was like reenacting Ferguson, Missouri indoors.

Complex 3: Huh, a short breather level.

Complex 4: Difficulty came back. An (admittedly optional) group of enemies who would interrupt and immediately kill whoever opened their door finally encouraged me to make an entrance with a LAW (not my preferred playstyle, I'm just not into property damage) followed by grenade pelting.

Complex 5: Loved the centerpiece battle in the big room with the ping pong and pool tables and men coming in in waves. Not so much the hallway filled with mines before the end-boss. Speaking of which, I liked how that guy was coated with the best armor and the best sniper rifle. I didn't give him any chance to make use of it since I opened the battle with a LAW rocket that knocked him down, allowing my people to have a turn's worth of free shots (while not preferred, it's the absolute best thing to do).

Thirteen maps, 166 enemies killed, took me about a week and a half to complete (so in-between Dead Man's Switch and Dragonfall: Original Recipe in terms of length but without any of the dialogue). It was enjoyable and all, but I wouldn't put it on a pedestal. I don't mind the Wasteland 2/Shadowrun Returns approach to battles, and the hardest parts of Dragonfall and even DMS were definitely more demanding than the easiest parts of UB. JA2's implementation of targeted shots is as disappointing as Wasteland 2's/Fallout's since headshots are boring more-damage-for-less-accuracy stuff, and leg-shots seem like a waste of time (if you want to knock someone down, use a grenade). I think a lot of the hype over JA2: Base Game is due to all the changes that super-simmy 1.13 mod does, as well as the time pressure that comes from hired mercanaries that would be inappropriate for most RPGs. I do think it's too bad more pseudo-iso games don't copy JA2's after-mission abstract looting, one of the finest convenience features.

If I ever get over my dislike of ugly-3D and panzerkleins I guess I might give Silent Storm a try eventually. Maybe Wasteland 2 or D:OS will be ready before then. :P
 

Shannow

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Cain turns bad systems into legendary games
Uhm, the combat system is the best thing about ToEE - and arguably the only good thing about it (apart from aesthetics).
Long interval, but still:
ToEE is also quite good in the C&C department. Lots of ways to do various things, and some massive differences in the consequences. I don't really care for it myself, but I think the game is really underappreciated in that department on the codex by people who normally claim to care about C&C.
Just saying.
(Personally I only care about the faithful and mostly good combat-implementation. Shame about the mostly bad encounters and other issues though.)
 

Roguey

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Since there's no IE-general I'm putting this here

Feb 27, 2015 at 11:31 PM - tuluse: Fallout 1 did between 200-300k
Feb 27, 2015 at 11:31 PM - darkpatriot: as in link form of numbers.
Feb 27, 2015 at 11:31 PM - darkpatriot: Not you remembering them.
Feb 27, 2015 at 11:31 PM - tuluse: IWDs were in the low hundreds of thousands
Feb 27, 2015 at 11:31 PM - tuluse: hold on dp
Feb 27, 2015 at 11:32 PM - tuluse: the last one was a sawyer quote from a forum, I'm not going to be bothered to track down
Feb 27, 2015 at 11:32 PM - Lhynn: roguey, you there mate?

darkpatriot Lhynn Here's Torment http://www.quartertothree.com/game-...-No-One-Played&p=117970&viewfull=1#post117970

No rough numbers for IWDs but here's JES talking about their ROI http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/54251-fallout-new-vegas/page-2#entry1014711

And here's Sorcerer's Place making an unsourced claim that IWD sold more than Torment http://www.sorcerers.net/Main/Archives/poll_arc2.php
The result above would suggest that Icewind Dale sold very few copies, but it most definitely did not. In fact, it sold MUCH better than Planescape: Torment, one of the reasons that the folks at Black Isle are putting together an expansion for it dubbed Heart of Winter.
Trad-fantasy/Forgotten Realms ftw (in terms of consumer appeal)
 

Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
I dunno Roguey, Josh sounds pretty jaded here:
The IWD series was actually quite commercially successful for Interplay. Certainly Interplay had much more profitable titles (e.g. the BG games), but the ROI percentage for IWD games was very high.

IWD was a workhorse series for Interplay. The games had short, high-pressure development cycles. They were fun games to work on, but PS:T had received such critical acclaim and so many of us (as I recall) wanted to work on Fallout 3 at the time that continuing work on the IWD series eventually became disheartening for some of us (me). Even if you can look at a game you've made and objectively say, "Yeah I guess that's pretty good," few people get into the industry with aspirations to make "pretty good" games.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,825
Since there's no IE-general I'm putting this here

Feb 27, 2015 at 11:31 PM - tuluse: Fallout 1 did between 200-300k
Feb 27, 2015 at 11:31 PM - darkpatriot: as in link form of numbers.
Feb 27, 2015 at 11:31 PM - darkpatriot: Not you remembering them.
Feb 27, 2015 at 11:31 PM - tuluse: IWDs were in the low hundreds of thousands
Feb 27, 2015 at 11:31 PM - tuluse: hold on dp
Feb 27, 2015 at 11:32 PM - tuluse: the last one was a sawyer quote from a forum, I'm not going to be bothered to track down
Feb 27, 2015 at 11:32 PM - Lhynn: roguey, you there mate?

darkpatriot Lhynn Here's Torment http://www.quartertothree.com/game-...-No-One-Played&p=117970&viewfull=1#post117970

No rough numbers for IWDs but here's JES talking about their ROI http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/54251-fallout-new-vegas/page-2#entry1014711

And here's Sorcerer's Place making an unsourced claim that IWD sold more than Torment http://www.sorcerers.net/Main/Archives/poll_arc2.php
The result above would suggest that Icewind Dale sold very few copies, but it most definitely did not. In fact, it sold MUCH better than Planescape: Torment, one of the reasons that the folks at Black Isle are putting together an expansion for it dubbed Heart of Winter.
Trad-fantasy/Forgotten Realms ftw (in terms of consumer appeal)
Ok, im impressed.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
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Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
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Smashing news, since inXile and Larian were unable to deliver what-I-would-consider-finished versions of their latest hits, I took the plunge and got Baldur's Gate with Tales of the Sword Coast. I'm going to evaluate it with baldurdash and convenience tweaks, preserving most of what Bioware shipped. I'm expecting a mostly-rote timesink, but it should be an interesting contrast to PoE.
 

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