Roguey vs the Grognards Thread

[Sensuki]

enverxis said: I see you liked Wolf: ET. Did you play competitive or just pubs? I played a bit of it on LAN, good FPS although not my favourite style of gameplay, however I did like how it required good tracking aim, as better players who could get consecutive headshots for a kill shined. Played with/against some of those guys in CoD and they were good smgers.

I just played public games or LAN games at Black Isle. I enjoyed the pace and overall gameplay style of W:ET much more than BF:1942 (though I did play a great deal of BF:1942 as well). Unsurprisingly, W:ET feels “Quakey” in movement speed and how many of the weapons work. The constrained maps and all-or-nothing objectives also lend themselves to much faster-paced, frantic play than BF:1942’s huge maps and death-by-ticket-loss. Each class in W:ET also felt distinctive and strong in their own way. Even Medics could eventually turn into combat monsters.

 

[Infinitron]

Enemy Territory kicked ass. Hard to believe it was free.

 

[TheGreatOne]

F2P done right

 

[Nikaido]

I loved ET back in the day, but I recently tried to play it again and felt disgusted by how you can't join a single server without it downloading a billion of funny mods that interfere even with your main menu UI. That was a quick uninstall.

It seems the game is as good as dead if you don't want it to be ruined by mediocre modders and community.

While a moddable engine can be a good thing, letting modded stuff show in the base, vanilla game browser and letting servers upload that shit to you and autoinstall things that will plaster crap all over your main menu was a terrible, terrible idea.

 

[Roguey]

His response to "Will PoE have gamey combat?" was the best.

Josh likes Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory Roguey ...

what are your thoughts on that game ?



pretty good fps too actually, required good tracking aim

I don't play multiplayer games, I wouldn't know.

 

[Roguey]

Double-posting for Josh-quotes that are relevant to previous discussions had itt

rope kid how does it feel to know that the latest assassins creed game is going to sell more copies and get vastly better review scores than pillars of eternity

it probably cost at least 10x as much to make so fine i guess

admit it. it really grinds your gears that the latest trashbag entry in the world's most infamous shovelware franchise is somehow going to be more successful than the throwback masterpiece you have spent the last X years hand-crafting with love

it doesn't. this type of game will continue to be relatively niche and that's never bothered me. new vegas had the largest dev team and was the most popular/financially successful game i've worked on but it wasn't any more satisfying to work on than the smaller games. if a game is fun to make and is enjoyed by enough people to be profitable, i'd rather work with small (in 2014 terms) teams for comparatively small audiences.

Looks like Josh agrees with me regarding quality and profitability.

we had a good play week that just ended yesterday. the game is fun and we were able to make some good balance adjustments and memory fixes. load times between areas have been plaguing us for a while, but adam checked in some huge optimizations that really reduced the memory footprint and load times. one really bad area went from 3.6 gigs in memory to 1.6.

a lot of creature speeds, overall combat speed, and a bunch of other little things were also adjusted over the course of the week. i think people will like the pace of combat more in the next backer beta build that goes out. we're also looking at the starting abilities for character classes to make sure that they all feel good to use from levels 1-3. some classes, like fighters and wizards, feel limited until about 4th level.

Bolding mine. A lotta posters here are gonna disagree!

Also someone posted the cap of that McIntosh tweet, many laughs were had. If you don't know it, pay it no mind.

Additionally, regarding his latest tumblr post, it's interesting how Obs employees do not like completely-passively built characters. Looks like some people here aren't going to get what they want.

 

[Infinitron]

Roguey Since you're not reading the PoE discussion, don't miss this thread: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/69349-combat-vid-hard-with-a-custom-party/

Things have evolved since the "PoE has too much micromanagement" days. Now they're complaining that it doesn't have enough(!)

 

[Sensuki]

They probably think its fun because it would have been a nice break from work having a week playing the game, of course you're going to have fun.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

They think they're having fun, but no. No they're not.

 

[Roguey]

Two months of Skyrim was exhausting, so I took a break with the tutorial campaign of Jagged Alliance: Deadly Games. Pretty funny how the tutorial of a stand-alone x-pack sequel to a game made 20 years ago by a core team of fewer than 20 people has more depth than Wasteland 2. They both lack targeted shots (excepting headshots for W2 and more AP for more accuracy for DG) and crouch-moving, but unlike W2, JA has stun grenades and rudimentary stealth (yeah yeah I know, broken scripts). Most important is the focus on fun missions. Wasted-Potential probably could have turned out better had the area designers focused first and foremost on interesting situations, leaving narrative as a secondary concern. Likewise, while it won't be winning any art direction awards, DG's simple 2D graphics are more pleasing to the eye. And while they're both grog games, I prefer the simplicity of JA's character system where there's only one damn lockpick skill (that also covers repair, oh no the streamlining) and one damn shoot-guns skill. It's simply incredible how one can make a compelling up-to-8-mercenaries combat-'n-supplementary-skills game with so "few" skills.

Not suggesting that DG does everything better though. I really don't like the decision to balance the game around time limits, since it gives the impression that missions are a puzzle to solve with a clear optimal solution. I played the tutorial with the limit disabled, and didn't enjoy being forced to kill all the enemies even after meeting the objective, though I understand the balance reasons behind it. It did make for one good story where I had to deal with this rifle-jerk camped behind a wall of impenetrable bushes by sending a few people around the long way to get as close to his side as possible to nail him with a stun grenade, followed by bullets. Despite that, when/if I try out the main campaign, I'll probably go with the mode that adds 40% more turns. W2's UI is very likely more comfortable to use too, considering it's a PC game made in 2014. It also does a better job with numbers transparency; I'm not a fan of the absence of information, or vague descriptions, though JA isn't too bad when it comes to describing the power of something compared to another something.

And yes I know I compared a tutorial to something I haven't played yet. It's supposed to be funny.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Funny how Morrowind is celebrated on these forums and Oblivion is the anti christ when the each following iteration in the TES series has been a dumbed down version of the last one since Daggerfall. Consistency.

The Bethesda audience (and Bioware too):

Aka Josh Sawyer's audience prior to PoE. And likely after PoE as well, as it's not going to sell as well as NV.

 

[Roguey]

Aka Josh Sawyer's audience prior to PoE. And likely after PoE as well, as it's not going to sell as well as NV.

The difference is that he doesn't coddle them like the other two do (see: numerous complaints about NV "railroading" and Cazadores).

 

[TheGreatOne]

The difference is that he doesn't coddle them like the other two do (see: numerous complaints about NV "railroading" and Cazadores).

Yet the end result is the same. And he is openly hostile towards old school RPG fans. Where as Bioware and Bethesda promise to please the hardcore crowd as well in their marketing talk, Sawyer comes up with his own terminology to label and show his disdain towards every one who isn't a casual moron so that he can justify ignoring the opinions of "subhumans". You are a subhuman to him as well, the moment you voluntarily read the manual of Wasteland 2 you stopped being part of his targer audience. You're either an ignorant consumer, part of the inner snake circle led by Anita Sarkeesian or an enemy and an outcast, a grognard clinging to ye olde ways and ruining online communities with toxic masculinity and pessimism.

 

[Roguey]

Yet the end result is the same.

Not to a lot of people.

And he is openly hostile towards old school RPG fans. Where as Bioware and Bethesda promise to please the hardcore crowd as well in their marketing talk, Sawyer comes up with his own terminology to label and show his disdain towards every one who isn't a casual moron so that he can justify ignoring the opinions of "subhumans". You are a subhuman to him as well, the moment you voluntarily read the manual of Wasteland 2 you stopped being part of his targer audience. You're either an ignorant consumer, part of the inner snake circle led by Anita Sarkeesian or an enemy and an outcast, a grognard clinging to ye olde ways and ruining online communities with toxic masculinity and pessimism.

You seem to be reading way too much into what he's saying.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63017-level-scaling-and-its-misuse/page-11#entry1298328

I don't believe I've ever referred to the people who engage in degenerate gameplay as "degenerates", nor have I insinuated they are doing something wrong or bad.

 

[TheGreatOne]

You seem to be reading way too much into what he's saying.

I don't see how you can read too much into"I fully support Anita Sarkeesian's cause" and "We don't design our games for grognards, if the casual market is happy then we've succeeded in doing our job"

 

[Roguey]

But don't they have Tim Cain now? Why the fuck do they need this clown to work on the gameplay of their games?

Tim Cain's gameplay ideas have always been terrible, but he is the co-systems designer on PoE.

Additionally he's married to a big ol' loud and proud bear, sure you want to champion him so much?

 

[felipepepe]

Tim Cain's gameplay ideas have always been terrible

 

[Roguey]

Did you overlook the rotten core gameplay of Fallout and Arcanum? It's kinda easy to not notice in the former, but it's clear as crystal in the latter.

 

[Azrael the cat]

But don't they have Tim Cain now? Why the fuck do they need this clown to work on the gameplay of their games?

Tim Cain's gameplay ideas have always been terrible, but he is the co-systems designer on PoE

Additionally he's married to a big ol' loud and proud bear, sure you want to champion him so much?

Yeah, but that's just "bros before ho's" taken to the ultimate extreme:D

 

[Lyric Suite]

Tim Cain's gameplay ideas have always been terrible

SJWs cannot understand craft nor art. Which is amusing, considering they simply cannot stop yapping about the art shit.

Cain was lead designer on Temple of Elemental Evil. Which means Cain > Sawyer.

Additionally he's married to a big ol' loud and proud bear, sure you want to champion him so much?

You are not talking to HHR here.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Tim Cain's gameplay ideas have always been terrible

SJWs cannot understand craft nor art. Which is amusing, considering they simply cannot stop yapping about the art shit.

Cain was lead designer on Temple of Elemental Evil. Which means Cain > Sawyer.

Additionally he's married to a big ol' loud and proud bear, sure you want to champion him so much?

You are not talking to HHR here.

Salute.

It's easy for people like myself to fall into the trap of thinking that tolerance was a one way victory of the cultural left. In reality, while the left certainly has much to be proud on for their contribution between 1970 and 1999, it would never have been possible without the conservative legacy that individuals should be the author of their own lives.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Tim Cain's gameplay ideas have always been terrible

SJWs cannot understand craft nor art. Which is amusing, considering they simply cannot stop yapping about the art shit.

Cain was lead designer on Temple of Elemental Evil. Which means Cain > Sawyer.

Additionally he's married to a big ol' loud and proud bear, sure you want to champion him so much?

You are not talking to HHR here.

Salute.

It's easy for people like myself to fall into the trap of thinking that tolerance was a one way victory of the cultural left. In reality, while the left certainly has much to be proud on for their contribution between 1970 and 1999, it would never have been possible without the conservative legacy that individuals should be the author of their own lives.

Read teh Plato brah:

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/stateman.html

In the ideal society, the left is the complement of the right and vice versa and both exist under the authority of the intellect, by which we mean the spiritual intellect. This whole fight between the left and the right is as artificial as the conflict between the sexes, and this constant enmity between what are essentially two halves of the same whole only leads to extremes from both sides of the spectrum.

 

[Roguey]

SJWs cannot understand craft nor art. Which is amusing, considering they simply cannot stop yapping about the art shit.

Cain was lead designer on Temple of Elemental Evil. Which means Cain > Sawyer.

ToEE was a straight adaptation of a (bad) system and (bad) module he had no part in creating, and when asked about the boring encounter design, he claimed ToEE's only problem was the writing.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Where can you buy a doll that looks like that? I need to know this for research purporses.

ToEE was a straight adaptation of a (bad) system and (bad) module he had no part in creating, and when asked about the boring encounter design, he claimed ToEE's only problem was the writing.

Cain turns bad systems into legendary games, Scrubyer designs bad systems to ruin games that could've been legendary. And for some reason he has a hard on for centering most of his design work around irredeemably bad engines, which can only mean two things: either he doesn't know what he is doing, or he knows exactly what he's doing and hides his incompetence behind by sticking to painfully mediocre games so that no one would notice his influence.

 

[Untermensch]

The biggest problem in ToEE's combat is the bland encounter design.

Guess who's responsible for that.