Roguey vs the Grognards Thread

[Zorba the Hutt]

After seeing Goat Perverter in action (in the KCD thread too) I felt his posts would add a lot of value in Prosperland.

 

[Infinitron]

However it was clear we were discussing Codex Consensus.

I certainly wasn't.

Refer:

If we're discussing mainstream opinion, our discussion is useless. Mainstream considers BioShock: Infinite - a game Sawyer should rightly hate (his "aping cinema" quote) - to be the pinnacle of game storytelling.

Mainstream opinion holds aboslute 0 value for discussion of quality.

Sawyer would agree ("aping cinema" comment).

Well if you want to talk about Codex opinion: http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=215

 

[Roguey]

Refer:

If we're discussing mainstream opinion, our discussion is useless. Mainstream considers BioShock: Infinite - a game Sawyer should rightly hate (his "aping cinema" quote) - to be the pinnacle of game storytelling.

Mainstream opinion holds aboslute 0 value for discussion of quality.

Sawyer would agree ("aping cinema" comment).

JES's intended audience were the millions who enjoyed Fallout 3 or would have enjoyed it with improvements (whether it be writing, gameplay, or both). Not necessarily everyone, but those people specifically.

 

[Grunker]

Refer:

If we're discussing mainstream opinion, our discussion is useless. Mainstream considers BioShock: Infinite - a game Sawyer should rightly hate (his "aping cinema" quote) - to be the pinnacle of game storytelling.

Mainstream opinion holds aboslute 0 value for discussion of quality.

Sawyer would agree ("aping cinema" comment).

JES's intended audience were the millions who enjoyed Fallout 3 or would have enjoyed it with improvements (whether it be writing gameplay, or both). Not necessarily everyone, but those people specifically.

What does that matter? Discussion of quality has nothing to do with subjective enjoyment. He might have succeeded making a game that appealed to his audience, but that ability and the question of whether New Vegas had quality mechanics have nothing to do with each other.

You're much smarter than to argue that mainstream appeal and quality are in any way related Roguey.

 

[Roguey]

What does that matter? Discussion of quality has nothing to do with subjective enjoyment. He might have succeeded making a game that appealed to his audience, but that ability and the question of whether New Vegas had quality mechanics have nothing to do with each other.

You're much smarter than to argue that mainstream appeal and quality are in any way related Roguey.

I'm saying Josh doesn't give a damn if people here think he failed with New Vegas because the majority of his intended audience disagree.

I know there's a subset of that group that wants things even more brutal and survivalist-oriented, for whom even the JSawyer mod doesn't go far enough. I don't think we should try to make everyone happy, but I do think that as developers we should recognize and try to appeal to the major "chunks" of our audience. With 5 million+ players, I don't think it's realistic to think one play style will fit all.

And I believe he's correct in that it's not a productive way to go about design trying to appeal to everyone in any one game. Sometimes that means sacrificing good players, sometimes it means sacrificing bad players. New Vegas was a sequel to a triple-A hit and had a marketing budget bigger than the cost of development, ergo it leans more on the side of making bad players happy.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Do you think Nolan cares about Josh's opinion?

 

[Grunker]

What does that matter? Discussion of quality has nothing to do with subjective enjoyment. He might have succeeded making a game that appealed to his audience, but that ability and the question of whether New Vegas had quality mechanics have nothing to do with each other.

You're much smarter than to argue that mainstream appeal and quality are in any way related Roguey.

I'm saying Josh doesn't give a damn if people here think he failed with New Vegas because the majority of his intended audience disagree.

I don't care. We didn't discuss whether Sawyer gave a damn or not, we were discussing the quality of New Vegas' mechanics.

 

[Roguey]

I don't care. We didn't discuss whether Sawyer gave a damn or not, we were discussing the quality of New Vegas' mechanics.

"Were the majority of its intended audience pleased with its mechanics?" Yes, they were. Good job, Josh, you're a great contractor.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Sawyer would agree that most Obsidian games are bad though????

That would mean that most Sawyer games are bad, in which he is right. For his sake I hope he leaves Obsidian and starts making good games independently once he is finished with PoE.

You're much smarter than to argue that mainstream appeal and quality are in any way related Roguey.

He knows full well what he is doing. If we were to discuss the depth of gameplay mechanics, challenge of encounter and boss design and overall quality of gameplay, his games would never stand a chance against grognard games (or even non grognard RPGs). He knows that the only metric in which Sawyer games are better than grognard games are sales numbers because making banal games to dumb casuals=bigger profits than making challenging games for people who understand and appreciate good game design.

New Vegas was a sequel to a triple-A hit and had a marketing budget bigger than the cost of development, ergo it leans more on the side of making bad players happy.

No wonder you have such a hard on for the game.

 

[Grunker]

I don't care. We didn't discuss whether Sawyer gave a damn or not, we were discussing the quality of New Vegas' mechanics.

"Were the majority of its intended audience pleased with its mechanics?" Yes, they were. Good job, Josh, you're a great contractor.

Who. Cares.

Quality ≠ customer satisfaction. Sawyer would agree. If you don't, you're stupid. It's that simple.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Roguey has no respect for Sawyer's views what so ever. Sawyer himself has said the following:

Honestly, I think it's really sad that RPGs essentially get a pass on having fundamentally junk core gameplay. And yes, I do consider combat to be a core gameplay element of most RPGs.

An awesome game with a crappy ruleset would be a better game if it had a better ruleset. Again, why grit your teeth and accept fundamentally dumb systems and their dumb adaptations into different media when such things clearly could be designed and executed better?

That means he is striving to move away from the kind of design that Roguey is defending. Having junk gameplay just because fans are satisfied with it or because it's a RPG is inexcusable.

 

[Roguey]

Quality ≠ customer satisfaction. Sawyer would agree. If you don't, you're stupid. It's that simple.

I don't see why you'd say that given "F:NV is fun." Or "Irreconcilable differences are just that. If a variety of desires can be accommodated, we'll certainly consider doing it. If we can't, we make the decision that we believe will contribute to making the best game."

I never said Rake was wrong. Just that his beliefs are marginal, which is accurate.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

"Were the majority of its intended audience pleased with its mechanics?" Yes, they were. Good job, Josh, you're a great contractor.

Just as Nolan is a great director and "The Dark Knight" a masterpiece, right?

 

[Grunker]

I never said Rake was wrong. Just that his beliefs are marginal, which is accurate.

Why bring it up if it wasn't relevant to his points about quality?

thanks for catching the roguey bait again you fucking retards

Thanks for another useless post on the subject. I enjoy this debate. If I didn't I wouldn't participate in it. I don't really give a fuck that it annoys you.

 

[Roguey]

Just as Nolan is a great director and "The Dark Knight" a masterpiece, right?

It's a successful film. Nolan is a successful director.

Why bring it up if it wasn't relevant to his points about quality?

Because there's no universally-liked game in existence. CoC is seemingly a game that hardly anyone actually likes playing whereas the same isn't true for New Vegas.

 

[Grunker]

Because there's no universally-liked game in existence. CoC is seemingly a game that hardly anyone actually likes playing whereas the same isn't true for New Vegas.

You're still trudging around in your self-contained world of arguments. Nothing relates to the actual post you responded to. To remind you:

1) CoC is bad as a game, says Sawyer.

2) Ironic because Obs games are bad as games, says a poster.

3) Not really since Sawyer would agree, says you.

4) New Vegas mechanics are pretty bad, says a poster.

5) BUT MOST PEOPLE DON'T AGREE, says you.

#5 has zero relevance to the discussion. There's no value or argument to be made that Rake's point is mainstream. It doesn't relate at all to the discussion. Also ironic is the fact that if Sawyer could actually talk honestly about this stuff, it is very doubtful that he would praise the core mechanics and the horrific balance inherent in the Fallout 3 structure.

 

[Goat Pervertor]

GODDAMN PEOPLE....



For example i just realized when i wathced FAST FIVE recently and i noticed a stereoptype when the black guy is allwasy screaming and yealling and the asian guy is always like cool and collected.

And i said you know........... STEREOTYPE !

BUT if this black guy was really like that i mean what does that mean??? Or if most blacks were like that... I mean the critics they say they JUDGE actually: the first is bad and second is good so be like the second please because if your like the first then... WHAT?!?!

ANYONE who sais thats BAD is being a racist. And the media the journalists the whatever they all argue like that... Always

Like this book/movie/game whatever is breaking the stereotypes you know and thats GOOD!
Which means stereotypes are BAD...
So if you match the stereotype well....??????????????????????

They all go around and they point at stereotypes POINT POINT POINT POINT POITN and on and on andon adno and NO! :slams fist on the table:

Theyr making a mistake...


Because its the problem is elswhere... And pointing out shit is well.... POINTLESS hehe. Its also racist.



UNDERSTAND!?!??!



Rougey im waiting for an answer

 

[Roguey]

#5 has zero relevance to the discussion. There's no value or argument to be made that Rake's point is mainstream. It doesn't relate at all to the discussion.

Most people, including Sawyer, since he considers New Vegas a success and has spoken about how marginal opinions should be ignored.

Or as the man himself puts it http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/235997950830969133

Also ironic is the fact that if Sawyer could actually talk honestly about this stuff, it is very doubtful that he would praise the core mechanics and the horrific balance inherent in the Fallout 3 structure.

He would do a lot of things differently if he were starting from scratch, sure.

 

[Grunker]

He would do a lot of things differently if he were starting from scratch, sure.

QED

 

[Seaking4]

Can you drop the "possibly" part of the tag?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

What in the name of Crom's teeth is happening here?

 

[imweasel]

Can you drop the "possibly" part of the tag?

Naw, "possibly" should be replaced with "completely".

 

[Somberlain]

What in the name of Crom's teeth is happening here?

People are talking about racism as if it was a bad thing.

 

[RK47]

i'm cool. and collected.

 

[Roguey]

It's too bad D:OS's balance patch isn't out yet. After a month of Skyrim, I could use a change of pace, but I don't want to take a break with something else since the patch could be right around the corner. I'm now slightly further than Josh ever got with the main quest. Still much further behind than Tim, who actually completed it (though he didn't bother with any DLC aside from Dawnguard)