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Roguey vs the Grognards Thread

AN4RCHID

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Actually the platforming genre has been in a good spot for years. The 80s/90s "adventure platforming" style still hasn't made a proper comeback, sure, but some more recent arcade-y platformers are well worth playing. Shit, Super Meat Boy and Dustforce are practically modern classics.
I haven't played Dustforce yet, but Super Meat Boy is the only indy platformer that's actually good (it's damn good in fact). Rayman Origins is also a great game and an actual A/AA game which is great. But overall this indy game boom hasn't produced all that many games that can actually claim to be better than Japanese 8/16/32 bit and arcade games that they try to emulate, because it takes actual talent and programming skills to design, make and fine tune tune a product like that into something that is fun to play, has responsive controls and challenging and well flowing level design.
True, true. I mentioned Super Meat Boy mostly because I'd rank it right up there with Doom as one of my favorite games of all time and it pains me to see someone not play it 'cause it's a modern platformer. Outside of maybe La-Mulana (which I'm in no position to judge seeing as I fucking hate puzzle-heavy games) I can't think of any modern 8-and-16-bit-esque platformers that live up to the classics.
Aban Hawkins and Cave Story are up there.
 

Roguey

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So that guy doesn't want to cater to grognard audience. Neither does Sawyer. Bioware games are more successful amongst the the anti-grognard audience, so their design is more successful than the watered down hybrid design of JES that doesn't please neither group.

Fallout New Vegas sold more copies than any individual new Bioware game.

Lionheart=bad gameplay, Dark Alliance=popamole gameplay,
You've already been corrected about this in that one "I am very upset about Josh Sawyer" thread you made that was deservedly retardo'd. I'm not engaging with disingenuous arguments.
 

Lhynn

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Lol at roguey believing that sales numbers of fallout new vegas are due to sawyer or obsidian in any way shape or form. To this day i find retards that think beth made it.
 

Seaking4

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Lol at roguey believing that sales numbers of fallout new vegas are due to sawyer or obsidian in any way shape or form. To this day i find retards that think beth made it.

Now I haven't even played FNV (although I imagine I'll have to play it this weekend because you guys never stop talking about it) but http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

Fallout New Vegas is quite high on that list (or at least it was when I saw it) and Fallout 3 isn't even on it. Sure this can be to a number of factors that I'm sure you'll list them but it's hard to say that Sawyer/Obsidian aren't the reason that FNV isn't successful. They took a core audience, expanded it, made a game that is still extremely popular and that still sells well during sales and such. Had they produced a shit game it would have had an initial burst of sales and then died ... like most Obs games I guess (note: I like most of their games and I'm just taking a guess).
 

Roguey

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Things ex-Obsidian designer Patrick K Mills said that I believe are more-or-less accurate:

Mills said:
From a gameplay and overall quality point of view Oblivion was pretty shitty
This is basically untrue. While Oblivion had a lot of system design issues, their terrible character building and leveling system, for one, overall it was a solid experience. It was well engineered and scoped and while not free of bugs it was polished enough to sell a bajillion copies, and if there is one thing that gamers react to more than design or art direction or story or sound or anything else it is overall polish. Shooting a guy with 5000 arrows before he dies may be pretty shitty, but I'll be damned if those arrows didn't skewer him entertainingly.

Mills said:
No. At least, not in that order of priority. Pedigree first, polish second. Dragon Age 2, anyone?
This is true. Keep in mind though, that prior to Oblivion Bethesda only had any pedigree with hardcore gamers, but more casual gamers responded to it in droves anyway. I think we can rule out Oblivion's massive popularity as being a product of Morrowind's smashing popular success.

The game was well marketed as well, but again, marketing isn't shit when the product sucks. Particularly if you don't have a brand that promises enough first-day purchases to make you a hit even if you blow.

The game was, in many ways, a step back from the design (particularly creative design) of Morrowind, but in many ways it was a lot better. You know what precisely zero people liked about Morrowind? Swinging your axe at a guy and being told you missed based on a hidden die roll.

Anyway, I'm not here to defend Oblivion as a paragon of excellent game design, but it did mark the point in Bethesda's production where scope, ambition, and production lined up perfectly and matched the market's desires in such a way as to produce a hit that helped build a brand.

EDIT: In my opinion it's actually critics and hardcore gamers who respond more to pedigree than your average gamer. For years no one but the most serious gamer coudl actually tell you the difference between Bioware and Black Isle and routinely confused the two. People still do. I know lots of (casual adequateness) people who played New Vegas and not one of them knows what Obsidian is. On the other hand, Bioware could probably release a turd in a box and critics would give it high 8s and low 9s while the majority of the gaming comunity responds with apathy (unless the turd has Dragon Age or Mass Effect written on the box, in which case week 1 sales will be good, but that's it).

Unfortunately, "zero people" is inaccurate. Grognards.
 

Roguey

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Fallout New Vegas sold more copies than any individual new Bioware game.

Do you have a NPD source for that?
NPD is US retail only so it's worthless.

I misremembered the figure, http://investor.ea.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=707298 says that both DAs combined have sold over 8 million so it's possible DA:O has the edge over NV depending on how that's skewed.

Regardless, it shipped more initially than any Bioware game. New Vegas's initial order was 5 million, DA:O's was 3.2, ME3 was 3.5. Clearly retailers have more faith in Bethesda than Bioware.

Where are those Mills quotes from?
Something Awful.

And perky goths and Laura Bailey's voice acting are very much ftw.
 
Last edited:

TheGreatOne

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Fallout New Vegas sold more copies than any individual new Bioware game.
It could've been designed by Cleve and it would've sold just as much. JES's influence on the game had 0 impact on its sales, it sold well because it's a sequel to one of the most popular games of the last console generation.
You've already been corrected about this in that one "I am very upset about Josh Sawyer" thread you made that was deservedly retardo'd. I'm not engaging with disingenuous arguments.
Nope, no one disputed the claim since the consensus is that all of those games have bad or mehdiocre gameplay at best. Lol@"disingenuous". By your standards Arcanum had "pretty enjoyable gameplay". Sawyer himself says that RPGs should move away from having junk gameplay and "good for being a RPG" isn't enough. Calling Lionheart, Fallout 3 and Arcanum "RPGs with good gameplay" is a slap in the face of JES who's trying to set higher standards for the genre.

His efforts so far have taken the genre back about 3 decades, but devolution or not, atleast JES has his heart in the right place and is actually trying to move the genre forward unlike Bioware. Kudos to him.
 

Jaesun

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Fallout New Vegas sold more copies than any individual new Bioware game.

Do you have a NPD source for that?
NPD is US retail only so it's worthless.

I misremembered the figure, http://investor.ea.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=707298 says that both DAs combined have sold over 8 million so it's possible DA:O has the edge over NV depending on how that's skewed.

Regardless, it shipped more initially than any Bioware game. New Vegas's initial order was 5 million, DA:O's was 3.2, ME3 was 3.5. Clearly retailers have more faith in Bethesda than Bioware.

Where are these actual sales numbers for New Vegas?
 

TheGreatOne

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Roguey doesn't engage with disingenuous arguments but he's quite adept at making them
 

Athelas

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So you are just making shit up and pulling numbers from your ass? OK got it.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2010/11/08/fallout-new-vegas-ships-5-million

Bethesda Softworks today announced they've shipped five million copies of the game to retailers worldwide across Xbox 360, PlayStation 3, and PC since its launch on October 19.

This is up from the 4.7 million copies of Fallout 3 that were shipped during its launch period in 2008. Additionally, Fallout: New Vegas has generated over $300 million in retail sales.

"We are delighted by the reception Fallout: New Vegas has received from fans around the world," said Vlatko Andonov, president of Bethesda Softworks."

"Despite the large launch quantities for this title, we have already received substantial re-orders from our retail partners, underscoring the tremendous popularity of this highly entertaining game."
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
That's not total sales, that's just initial numbers (for Fallout 3). F:NV looks like it sold faster than Fallout 3, but that's to be expected because the original built up the fanbase. Nothing amazing there, that's just not fucking it up.
 

Roguey

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So you are just making shit up and pulling numbers from your ass? OK got it.
"The project director said it sold more than its predecessor" isn't "making shit up."

That's not total sales, that's just initial numbers (for Fallout 3). F:NV looks like it sold faster than Fallout 3, but that's to be expected because the original built up the fanbase. Nothing amazing there, that's just not fucking it up.
Considering that Fallout 2, Kotor 2, and DA2 all shipped less than their predecessors, I'd say that a slam dunk sequel increasing the numbers isn't a given.
 

Roguey

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There's a lot of other better examples where sequels sell more.
Go on then. Keep in mind they have to be slam dunks to genres that are as comparably complex as RPGs.
 

Roguey

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Strange how you overlooked the only GTA sequel I'd consider to be a slam dunk (Vice City, released only a year after III).

Shoutbox reply:

Blaine: Remember, when Project Eternity went up on Kickstarter, Josh hadn't yet stated, "Pretty much all games get it wrong" and so on

"Posted 30 November 2009 - 04:27 PM" Try again. :)
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Strange how you overlooked the only GTA sequel I'd consider to be a slam dunk (Vice City, released only a year after III).

Shoutbox reply:

Blaine: Remember, when Project Eternity went up on Kickstarter, Josh hadn't yet stated, "Pretty much all games get it wrong" and so on

"Posted 30 November 2009 - 04:27 PM" Try again. :)
Yeah, meant to add it, forgot, oh well.
 

Athelas

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There's a lot of other better examples where sequels sell more.
New Vegas wasn't a mainline sequel (as is evident from its name).
 

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