Roguey vs the Grognards Thread

[TheGreatOne]

Is this like that situation where you talked about Serpent Isle while posting a screenshot of Shattered Lands?

You have too high estrogen levels if your brain can't comprehend mental tasks this menial even after getting an explanation. I did not find any images of hidden buttons in U7 by doing a quick google search and I couldn't be bothered to start a new U7 game and play it for hours and hours when I could demonstrate the same point just by taking the same screenshot from Darksun in 5 minutes, which I already had installed on my computer. The main point was that old games had worse pixel hunts than Original Sin, which is apparent both in U7P2 and DS, so whether the pic demonstrating my point was from U7 or DS didn't ultimately make any difference.
But then again you've never even played any of the games you bad mouth because installing a game or downloading an emulator is too much of a hassle, so your non video game playing ass could never comprehend how much time it takes to complete a video game. These things aren't like movies where you can skip scenes as much as you like.

Any Bioware employee.

None of them pretend to be competent designers on twitter/forums while JES makes sure every one will hear how awesome he is

It's entirely possible to have a demanding game that doesn't rely on chaos or trial and error to achieve it. In fact such games can be more demanding.

I'm not messing with emulators.

I just pointed you in the direction of one but you never run out of excuses when it comes down to why you are not playing video games rather than talking shit about them on some forum

As long as we feel that we hit (our) goals and the majority of players agree, we can't worry about the margins who a) never agreed with those goals or b) don't feel we met them. It's just not a productive way to go about design.

His personal design goals don't mean jack shit if the audience doesn't find those fun or interesting. And you're objectively wrong here since all his games have poor/clunky gameplay when compared the other games, and also because he does not satisfy the target audience. Either his target audience is RPG fans (grognards), in which case he has failed. Or then his target audience is the mainstream audience, people who aren't hardcore RPG fans, in which case he's mostly failed, as he hasn't made the next Final Fantasy 7 or Skyrim. He made New Vegas, which is a pretty major success, but only because it's the sequel to Fallout 3. AP/NWN2/Lionheart/BG DA were B class games that are in no way popular or super successful financially speaking.

You thought he wanted the "Xbox 360 dark ages" to return when that wasn't the case.

I don't care whether he trashes consoles and Mass Effect or not. If he thinks that the direction that WRPGs have taken during the last few years (that is going from Dragon Age/Skyrim/Mass Effect/Witcher to games like Wasteland 2/Pillars of Eternity/Might&Magic X/Tides of Numenera/Original Sin) is a bad thing, he's a gigantic faggot and a heretic.

If you're going to make games like the Gold Box series, IE games, or ToEE, make the visual/audio/text combat feedback clear (which really is the player's window into what's going on for such games)

Thanks for supplying me with yet another quote in which JES says one thing when in reality he does the complete opposite.

Does this mean you're not Roguey's alt?

Damn son, you got me. Yes, I am in fact Roguey. I entertain myself by publicly having debates like this with my own suck puppet account. The purpose of this all is to make all detractors of JES look stupid by portraying one as being very butthurt and persistent in his ever more ludicrous claims of what a failure JES is as a designer.

 

[Athelas]

Josh Sawyer should be liked just because of the amount of butthurt he causes on a forum with 'thick skinned individuals'.

By that logic, modern Bioware (and their romance crap) should be liked as well, so should Microsoft for ushering an Xbox era, or Bethesda for raping Fallout. I mean, if we're talking about causing butthurt for Codexers as something to be revered for.

I dunno, do people who hate the Xbawks really spend thousands of posts passionately debating its minutiae in depth? The butthurt surrounding PoE is much more palpable - and amusing - than the examples you listed. For example, you can find complaints about PoE in a thread called 'Wasteland 2 suggestions'. It has even attracted dedicated anti-Roguey's (see the post above me).

 

[Shannow]

Josh Sawyer should be liked just because of the amount of butthurt he causes on a forum with 'thick skinned individuals'.

By that logic, modern Bioware (and their romance crap) should be liked as well, so should Microsoft for ushering an Xbox era, or Bethesda for raping Fallout. I mean, if we're talking about causing butthurt for Codexers as something to be revered for.

I dunno, do people who hate the Xbawks really spend thousands of posts passionately debating its minutiae in depth? The butthurt surrounding PoE is much more palpable - and amusing - than the examples you listed. For example, you can find complaints about PoE in a thread called 'Wasteland 2 suggestions'. It has even attracted dedicated anti-Roguey's (see the post above me).

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/the-dragon-age-inquisition-thread.75304/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ping-ground-currently-airing-gamergate.90469/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/fallout-4.72806/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/skyrim-is-worse-than-oblivion-in-every-way.66361/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/which-oblivion-dev-lied-the-most.15427/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/oblivion-review.12507/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/oblivion-review.12507/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/what-is-fallout-3.19691/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/chefe-does-fallout-3.27573/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/fallout-3-codex-opinions-thread.27282/



Add to that another 100 threads with literaraly thousand's of posts that I didn't bother collecting in my 2 minute search...
You know, countering (more or less) one argument from a list of arguments does not invalidate all of them...

 

[TheGreatOne]

The butthurt surrounding PoE is much more palpable because people had high hopes as it was advertised to be the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate 2. Add in a smug developer who rubs salt in people's wounds and says how stupid they are for liking the original game and it's no wonder that people take exception to that when even games that people knew from the start to be popamole got 100+ page mega threads. JES is like the gate keeper between the two worlds, where as designers like Todd Howard don't even try to mingle with the grognard audience.
Faceless evil entity=the hate is undirected and not as poignant
Auter who likes to stick his smug face against yours and spew his bullshit quotes=the rage becomes more focused and "obsessed". The person in question becomes a symbol for a different mindset or ideology

 

[Athelas]

I specifically said 'debating its minutiae in depth'. Stuff like laughing at Bioware's silly romances and such obviously wasn't what I was referring to.

 

[Abelian]

Does this mean you're not Roguey's alt?

Damn son, you got me. Yes, I am in fact Roguey. I entertain myself by publicly having debates like this with my own suck puppet account. The purpose of this all is to make all detractors of JES look stupid by portraying one as being very butthurt and persistent in his ever more ludicrous claims of what a failure JES is as a designer.

I just figured there couldn't possible be TWO people with such a supply of JES quotes for every occasion.

people had high hopes as it was advertised to be the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate 2.

Reminded me of the Pink Floyd song High Hopes:

Encumbered forever by desire and ambition
There's a hunger still unsatisfied
Our weary eyes still stray to the horizon
Though down this road we've been so many times

 

[Volrath]

The butthurt surrounding PoE is much more palpable because people had high hopes as it was advertised to be the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate 2.

That's just not true though: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity

Not a single mention of Baldur's Gate 2 on the entire kickstarter page.

 

[Roguey]

None of them pretend to be competent designers on twitter/forums while JES makes sure every one will hear how awesome he is

Oh really

Funny how Zoeller's pretty groggy himself yet made a game that grognards hated (not enough grog). :D

His personal design goals don't mean jack shit if the audience doesn't find those fun or interesting.

But they do. Josh/Obs could have kotor2'd/da2'd Fallout 3, but instead they expanded the fanbase and made an enjoyable game that thousands still play every day four years later. Icewind Dale 1 and 2 are rtwp combat crawls with no BG- or Torment-style companions and they're still a part of GOG's top ten bestsellers, beating ToEE and a bunch of other games.

I don't care whether he trashes consoles and Mass Effect or not. If he thinks that the direction that WRPGs have taken during the last few years (that is going from Dragon Age/Skyrim/Mass Effect/Witcher to games like Wasteland 2/Pillars of Eternity/Might&Magic X/Tides of Numenera/Original Sin) is a bad thing, he's a gigantic faggot and a heretic.

He is gay.

The former hasn't gone away, nor will it. Hopefully in time some 4e fans will make more good low-budget RPGs and then everyone will be served.

Thanks for supplying me with yet another quote in which JES says one thing when in reality he does the complete opposite.

No prob. I agree that spell fx should be toned down and the combat log should be able to be centered for those who don't want popping numbers.

 

[DefJam101]

You'd probably just spam Phil Fish quotes all day in a platformer forum and call every one who likes those old Japanese platformers a grognard for preferring games which were clearly way too unforgiving and challenging.

I refuse to play Fez. I also don't bother with modern platformers for the most part because I doubt they can compete with the memories I have of the older ones I used to play.

Actually the platforming genre has been in a good spot for years. The 80s/90s "adventure platforming" style still hasn't made a proper comeback, sure, but some more recent arcade-y platformers are well worth playing. Shit, Super Meat Boy and Dustforce are practically modern classics.

edit:

I don't care whether he trashes consoles and Mass Effect or not. If he thinks that the direction that WRPGs have taken during the last few years (that is going from Dragon Age/Skyrim/Mass Effect/Witcher to games like Wasteland 2/Pillars of Eternity/Might&Magic X/Tides of Numenera/Original Sin) is a bad thing, he's a gigantic faggot and a heretic.

He is gay.

Roguey confirmed for man. Alternative universe fangirl Roguey unable to post on Codex, struggles to fund costly operation

 

[TheGreatOne]

Not a single mention of Baldur's Gate 2 on the entire kickstarter page.

Project Eternity (working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past: Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment.

Pillars of Eternity will feature a party-based real-time-with-pause tactical gameplay, fixed isometric user interface for the game-world with two-dimensional pre-rendered backdrops,[1][6] in a similar vein as its spiritual ancestors Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale series and Planescape: Torment (all based on BioWare's Infinity Engine).[7]

True enough, but Baldur's Gate 2 is far more liked than Baldur's Gate and they're not trying to recreate a game like Torment, so you know perfectly well which game this is going to be out of the 3 different possibilities (Torment 2/Baldur's Gate 3/Icewind Dale 3)

Funny how Zoeller's pretty groggy himself yet made a game that grognards hated (not enough grog).

So he talks exactly like Sawyer. "This game has shit combat. " "It sold a lot so you're wrong!". How exactly is that supposed to be more smug than Sawyer? He doesn't say that people who like other things are wrong and he doesn't come up with a term to stereotype every one who disagrees with his design philosophy or who doesn't like his games.

Icewind Dale 1 and 2 are rtwp combat crawls with no BG- or Torment-style companions and they're still a part of GOG's top ten bestsellers, beating ToEE and a bunch of other games.

Coincidentally they're the only Sawyer games with good gameplay, before he started his long decline.

Actually the platforming genre has been in a good spot for years. The 80s/90s "adventure platforming" style still hasn't made a proper comeback, sure, but some more recent arcade-y platformers are well worth playing. Shit, Super Meat Boy and Dustforce are practically modern classics.

I haven't played Dustforce yet, but Super Meat Boy is the only indy platformer that's actually good (it's damn good in fact). Rayman Origins is also a great game and an actual A/AA game which is great. But overall this indy game boom hasn't produced all that many games that can actually claim to be better than (or even equal to) the Japanese 8/16/32 bit and arcade games that they try to emulate, because it takes actual talent and programming skills to design, make and fine tune tune a product like that into something that is fun to play, has responsive controls and challenging and well flowing level design.

 

[DefJam101]

Actually the platforming genre has been in a good spot for years. The 80s/90s "adventure platforming" style still hasn't made a proper comeback, sure, but some more recent arcade-y platformers are well worth playing. Shit, Super Meat Boy and Dustforce are practically modern classics.

I haven't played Dustforce yet, but Super Meat Boy is the only indy platformer that's actually good (it's damn good in fact). Rayman Origins is also a great game and an actual A/AA game which is great. But overall this indy game boom hasn't produced all that many games that can actually claim to be better than Japanese 8/16/32 bit and arcade games that they try to emulate, because it takes actual talent and programming skills to design, make and fine tune tune a product like that into something that is fun to play, has responsive controls and challenging and well flowing level design.

True, true. I mentioned Super Meat Boy mostly because I'd rank it right up there with Doom as one of my favorite games of all time and it pains me to see someone not play it 'cause it's a modern platformer. Outside of maybe La-Mulana (which I'm in no position to judge seeing as I fucking hate puzzle-heavy games) I can't think of any modern 8-and-16-bit-esque platformers that live up to the classics.

 

[FeelTheRads]

The butthurt surrounding PoE is much more palpable - and amusing - than the examples you listed. For example, you can find complaints about PoE in a thread called 'Wasteland 2 suggestions'. It has even attracted dedicated anti-Roguey's (see the post above me).

And why is it so amusing?

I specifically said 'debating its minutiae in depth'. Stuff like laughing at Bioware's silly romances and such obviously wasn't what I was referring to.

Right.. debating in depth is amusing butthurt? Just laughing at it would be better? Because there's a certain group around here who thinks you're a shitposter if you just go "lol this shit sucks".

So, allow me to correct you:

The butthurt of Obsidian fanboys whenever someone criticizes anything is very much palpable and hilarious. For example, you can find Infinitron doing damage control after every post that even hints that something might be wrong with PoE.

 

[Infinitron]

Tsk tsk. After all those hundreds of pages, my Wasteland 2 "damage control" turned out to be more or less on target, so I'm feeling pretty good about that now. The incline is coming, gentlemen.

 

[Dreaad]

 

[Rake]

Tsk tsk. After all those hundreds of pages, my Wasteland 2 "damage control" turned out to be more or less on target, so I'm feeling pretty good about that now. The incline is coming, gentlemen.

We'll see after felipepepe 's Review of W2

 

[ZagorTeNej]

First of all, even with all his bullshit opinions, Josh cannot be placed on the same level of attrocious as Bethesda or Bioware.

He hasn't sunk to their current level but he never reached their heights either, no game of his (to date) is even in the same ballpark as BG2 or Morrowind (no matter what Obsidian/Josh fanboyz say).

Just saying, if he's so awesome for causing such butthurt for Codexers then Bethesda must be the best thing ever, they took Codex sacred cow and butchered it, how hilarious is that? They're such jesters.

Second, i disagree with every second opinion of his i read, and many others do, but there is a certain group of posters that their anal devastation is so clear they are hillarious. Somehow they took it sooooooooooo personaly that they go into a fit everytime Sawyer's name is mentioned, and they respond with huge tl;drs in every Roguey's trollbait post.

Meh, this is Codex, people respond in long ass walls of texts to even the most meaningless shit. Sawyer gets more heat here for his (often incredibly) dumb statements more than your average game journalist or something because he's a high ranking Obsidian (which has many fans here, deservedly or not) employee and the project lead on a kickstarter game Codex is invested in (and yes also because of Roguey), he's more under the microscope.

And they are so desparate to make Roguey of all people admit it's wrong, they come of as they lust after it in secret and seek it's attention.

At this point i would side with Roguey just for the lolz

People don't argue on the internet to prove the other guy/girl/tranny wrong, it's more like arguing for the sake of arguing and venting. It's the same with most internet forums.

 

[Shannow]

I specifically said 'debating its minutiae in depth'. Stuff like laughing at Bioware's silly romances and such obviously wasn't what I was referring to.

Read the threads. Then come back and tell us how they do not 'debate minutiae in depth'.

EDIT: BTW, you tried the same defense again. After I explicitly told you it doesn't work.

 

[Rake]

First of all, even with all his bullshit opinions, Josh cannot be placed on the same level of attrocious as Bethesda or Bioware.

He hasn't sunk to their current level but he never reached their heights either, no game of his (to date) is even in the same ballpark as BG2 or Morrowind (no matter what Obsidian/Josh fanboyz say).

Just saying, if he's so awesome for causing such butthurt for Codexers then Bethesda must be the best thing ever, they took Codex sacred cow and butchered it, how hilarious is that? They're such jesters.

I found Morrowind shit from the start, so no great loss here. But i agree about BG2, with the exeption that NEW Bioware isn't the same with the one that made BG2. With the exception of Avellone with PST, no one has managed to surpass BG2 for me. I even rank Fallouts slightly below.

 

[Roguey]

Skyrim journal update: The Soul Cairn is an awful open level and that "find 10 pages" sidequest exacerbates it. Since clairvoyance didn't work, I just played in a window and alt-tabbed to a map, and good thing I did, because one of the pages outright disappeared and I had to use console commands to complete the quest. Normally I wouldn't even bother with this kind of tedious polygon-hunting, except I looked up the reward and +50 carry weight/stamina was too good to pass up. Looking at a map and using cheats to solve a quest: acceptable. Using cheats to just give myself more carry weight: unacceptable.

Aside from that and the stupidity of the railroaded plot, Dawnguard's been all right. Serana's sunny and voiced by Laura Bailey so I like her, even though having her around to soak damage makes me untouchable. I'm probably not going to be able to mock head vampire guy for allowing himself to be sodomized to near-death by Molag Bal, which is disappointing but understandable (it's not like I could do the same to Serana and her mother). I'm now at a part where I have to visit a city I haven't had to visit in the main quest yet, so I'm putting this content on hold and going back to that. While getting back on track, I saw a master vampire and his fledgelings get in a fight with a bear outside a small village.

So he talks exactly like Sawyer. "This game has shit combat. " "It sold a lot so you're wrong!". How exactly is that supposed to be more smug than Sawyer? He doesn't say that people who like other things are wrong and he doesn't come up with a term to stereotype every one who disagrees with his design philosophy or who doesn't like his games.

Is this what you want?

Coincidentally they're the only Sawyer games with good gameplay, before he started his long decline.

To quote one of your favorite games, "nah."

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

TL;DR

 

[TheGreatOne]

Is this what you want?

So that guy doesn't want to cater to grognard audience. Neither does Sawyer. Bioware games are more successful amongst the the anti-grognard audience, so their design is more successful than the watered down hybrid design of JES that doesn't please neither group.

To quote one of your favorite games, "nah."

Lionheart=bad gameplay, Dark Alliance=popamole gameplay, NWN2=bad gameplay, Alpha Protocol=bad gameplay, New Vegas=bad gameplay, Pillas of Eternity=so far, bad gameplay. Josh Sawyer is seemingly incapable of making a RPG with good gameplay. Like I said, you're objectively wrong here. My arguments are backed up by science while you're the gaming equivalent of a creationist.
All the balance in the world doesn't mean shit if the core gameplay feels dull and doesn't offer good tactical challenges nor interesting boss fights&encounters. Which applies to all of his post IWD games.

 

[Volrath]

Science™

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

It is a science compared to Rogueys bible thumping.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Science™

I was going to say science and GOD for maximum righteousness but then I couldn't have compared his behavior with bible thumping with out seeming like a hypocrite

 

[Ninjerk]