Roguey vs the Grognards Thread

[tuluse]

Wasn't the Telepathic Tactics game supposed to be completely deterministic?

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

I was looking for

I wouldn't say I'm a dick. I do let people know what I think about their ideas, but I don't think I'm mean-spirited about it. If someone thinks that being critical = being a dick, they must have lived a very sheltered life.

to counter anyone who says JES is arrogant. For some reason I thought he said it on the Obsidian boards.

Arrogant types never believe themselves to be arrogant. His response here is ironic and arrogant. There can be no doubt, Sawyer is most definitely arrogant.

Inventing a derogative term for those who have views counter to your own? Puh-lease.

For that matter, your infamy here is directly correlates to his arrogance si why would you not defend it? So very transparent.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Wasn't the Telepathic Tactics game supposed to be completely deterministic?

Yes, almost.
Status effects have a % chance to occur though...since they are so deadly.

 

[TheGreatOne]

I briefly wonder how many words total I've inspired TheGreatOne to write in anger

You don't anger me. This angers me

Compared to fallout 3 it doesn't stack up and I much prefer the fallout series.

But I don't bother writing a response to those people since they're everywhere. That's why I'm here, to get away from drooling morons like that. That's why I loathe you, because you just had to infiltrate the only boys club in town and start crying how sexist it is because there are no gurls around. Your posts don't anger me, they make me loathe you and wonder why moderators haven't removed you from the premises. This is a forum dedicated to monocled RPGs and all you do is go on and on about how bad monocled RPGs are and how much better modern RPGs are.

Not AP, no. AP, as bad as it is

So Sawyer made a game so bad that even a sworn sawyerist like you reaches for a holy talisman and curses its name upon hearing it? "No AP, we don't speak of the dark times..."
So what has Sawyer made? New Vegas, what else? He's starting to sound a lot like Phil Fish here. An intolerable hipster who made one decent game and now thinks he's the God of game design.

The latter's true enough, but have I complained about battles being too hard in KotC, SRR, ToEE, Wasteland?

All you do is whine about difficulty and how it's ftl. Atleast you had the common decency to play KotC and ToEE, but those aren't the only good turn based RPGs in existence.
Besides there are TB games that don't have "grognard speccing" with unviable builds like JA2, SS2, R:TC, SMTIII, DeSu or TO:LUCT (or even the much maligned nu-Xcom)

Kinda like youse guise with RPGs, except I have the self-awareness not to bother or even pay them much mind.

So you've "out grown" video games. Again why do you spend so much time talking about them? Oh yeah because hipsters love to masturbate by talking about game design and how everything good and pure in this world is shit.

I don't like any of those things.

But you think and act like them.

Especially cult of simplicity-supporting "Fallout 3 was better than NV because my father" Extra Credits.

You keep strawmanning me. What's important is audience satisfaction; it doesn't matter how large or small the audience is as long as there's enough to pay for the cost of development and the majority of those paying fans are satisfied.

So Sawyer games are better than grog games because they're dumbed down and sell better than those, but are also better than even more dumbed down AAA RPGs that sell even better than his games because they're not as dumbed down. Again what a mediocre and utterly bland man he is. Neither fish nor fowl, forever a mediocrity.
You do care about numbers and financial success more than any one else here, always using asinine arguments like "New Vegas has a higher playerbase in steam" and "Larian didn't sell one million copies, therefore this game has shit gameplay and is a complete failure!!!!!!". But being the snake oil salesman that you are, you only care about those financial numbers when it concerns other RPGs. When JES games have abysmal sales numbers, suddenly it's about crafting enjoyable experiences for his RPG player core audience. Original Sin was a success beyond our wildest dreams and that hurts your butt a lot.

Final Fantasy 7 and Skyrim will forever be more successful and important games than anything that JES will design and his games will never be (as) appreciated amongst the RPG fan audience as grog games designed specifically for their tastes. Like I said, neither people's champion nor the indy darling, just another no name developer that no one will remember 30 years from now, no different from the designers who made Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

Anyway a notable Yixer posted something I agree with so of course I have to paste it here

the NeoRPG Renaissance I begged for at one point came and now I'm begging the devs to take it, along with Dice Based Resolution, back away.

Any one who wants to see kickstarter incline go away and Xbox 360 dark ages return is a gigantic faggot. Just posting quotes like that should get you banned from here.

 

[Volrath]

Maximum butthurt achieved

 

[TheGreatOne]

There's a difference between contempt and rage. I despise Sawyer and Roguey, but after they insulted Wizardry, nothing they've said has caused a knee jerk reaction in me. I fully know what to expect from these people. I just want them to stop trying to ruin RPGs, that's all. A lot of people constantly post shit in the Grimoire thread but I wouldn't call them butthurt either. They're not raging or mad at Cleve. You on the other hand seemed quite desperate in your attempts of trying to defend the sequel of Fallout 3 earlier on in this thread, so you're not exactly the smoothest operator around yourself.

 

[Volrath]

There's a difference between contempt and rage. I despise Sawyer and Roguey, but after they insulted Wizardry, nothing they've said has caused a knee jerk reaction in me. I fully know what to expect from these people. I just want them to stop trying to ruin RPGs, that's all. A lot of people constantly post shit in the Grimoire thread but I wouldn't call them butthurt either. They're not raging or mad at Cleve. You on the other hand seemed quite desperate in your attempts of trying to defend the sequel of Fallout 3 earlier on in this thread, so you're not the smoothest operator yourself either.

Because I consider New Vegas to be one of the better RPGs of the last decade? So does the Codex apparently: http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9453

 

[TheGreatOne]

Out of the top 9 of that list, 8 games have broken/shit combat and the one that doesn't is RtWp, that should tell you something. Oh and Morrowind and Gothic 2 are better CRPGs than any gold box game, Wizardry 7 or Ultima 5.

Also VTMB placed higher than New Vegas, and VTMB is worse than Fallout 3, Oblivion and Dragon Age 2 according to Roguey, so it's not like New Vegas placing high up on that list disproves my point.

 

[Roguey]

Wasn't the Telepathic Tactics game supposed to be completely deterministic?

I tried to give that demo a try but it required additional third party software so I was like nope nope nope.

That's why I loathe you, because you just had to infiltrate the only boys club in town and start crying how sexist it is because there are no gurls around.

I've never made a post like this.

Also, there have always been a few women (trans and cis) around on the 'dex. Mistress, of Mistress's Lair, was one of the earliest newsposters.

This is a forum dedicated to monocled RPGs and all you do is go on and on about how bad monocled RPGs are and how much better modern RPGs are.

I think modern RPGs are bad too.

So Sawyer made a game so bad that even a sworn sawyerist like you reaches for a holy talisman and curses its name upon hearing it? "No AP, we don't speak of the dark times..."

He was only responsible for the martial arts skill, which was okay, and one of the only systems remained untouched by Sega. The only "problem" is that you can't use it to kill bosses unless you've near-maxed it out.

So what has Sawyer made? New Vegas, what else? He's starting to sound a lot like Phil Fish here. An intolerable hipster who made one decent game and now thinks he's the God of game design.

He doesn't believe that at all.

UUUGGGGGHHHH QUIT YOUR JOB YOUR TERRIBLE AT IT!

That may be true but I am worse at everything else!

All you do is whine about difficulty and how it's ftl.

Not all difficulty is good. I don't like difficulty created by extreme chaos or trial and error.

Besides there are TB games that don't have "grognard speccing" with unviable builds like JA2, SS2, R:TC, SMTIII, DeSu or TO:LUCT (or even the much maligned nu-Xcom)

JA2 and S2 have simulationist systems I don't like. I assume the others are jrpgs, and I don't have consoles or handhelds, nor do I intend to get any. New xcom has a lot of systematic problems and I don't like strategic gameplay (it may or may not be bad, I just don't like it).

So you've "out grown" video games. Again why do you spend so much time talking about them? Oh yeah because hipsters love to masturbate by talking about game design and how everything good and pure in this world is shit.

I'm critical, I haven't outgrown games. My beliefs about what's acceptable have been informed by what I've played in the past.

You do care about numbers and financial success more than any one else here, always using asinine arguments like "New Vegas has a higher playerbase in steam" and "Larian didn't sell one million copies, therefore this game has shit gameplay and is a complete failure!!!!!!".

The latter is a Volourn thing I copied because it's funny.

But being the snake oil salesman that you are, you only care about those financial numbers when it concerns other RPGs. When JES games have abysmal sales numbers, suddenly it's about crafting enjoyable experiences for his RPG player core audience. Original Sin was a success beyond our wildest dreams and that hurts your butt a lot.

JES has never been the lead designer of a game that bombed. Additionally

Good gameplay is better than whatever your ideas or whatever the player's expectations are. Simple and understandable: don't follow genre conventions simply because they exist. Beyond that, "attempting to execute something because you think it's a good idea or players insist it's a good idea doesn't always result in something good."
...
Summing up the importance of strong gameplay, he said, "The idea is that good gameplay ultimately is what you want to create, because that will produce good experiences for people. If you create a game with bad gameplay that was the result of your idea, and it met player expectations, it's still bad and frustrating."

Never create gameplay mechanics simply because that's "just the way that RPGs are," he cautioned. "If we ignore the lessons that those games [in other genres] teach us then we're really limiting our audience's ability to have fun," he concluded.

Like I said, neither people's champion nor the indy darling, just another no name developer that no one will remember 30 years from now, no different from the designers who made Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

Ian Frazier made an Ultima V remake using the Dungeon Siege engine, used that to get the lead on Reckoning, and then used that to get to get the lead on ME4. Sounds like someone who's going places.

Any one who wants to see kickstarter incline go away and Xbox 360 dark ages return is a gigantic faggot. Just posting quotes like that should get you banned from here.

That person in particular coined the term "contard" a portmanteau of "console" and "retard."

I'm going to stop enabling bad developers. After Torment, I'll no longer buy RPGs without knowing how much grog they have, and I'll no longer discuss new RPGs with a known unacceptable amount of grog.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Rake]

Define grog.

 

[TheGreatOne]

That's why I loathe you, because you just had to infiltrate the only boys club in town and start crying how sexist it is because there are no gurls around.

I've never made a post like this.

Also, there have always been a few women (trans and cis) around on the 'dex. Mistress, of Mistress's Lair, was one of the earliest newsposters.

That was an analogy for how you how to shit post your sawyer quotes on a forum dedicated to grognard RPGs

He doesn't believe that at all.

Can you point me in the direction of a single designer who is more full of himself than Sawyer, besides Molyneux? Even Romero wasn't that bad, and atleast he gave us Doom, Quake and enabled the creation of Deus Ex.

Not all difficulty is good. I don't like difficulty created by extreme chaos or trial and error.

You want difficulty to be neutered to the point where it doesn't matter any more

JA2 and S2 have simulationist systems I don't like. I assume the others are jrpgs, and I don't have consoles or handhelds, nor do I intend to get any.

Whether you like simluationist systems or not has nothing to do with the quality of said games. Tactical command was designed by Jullian Gollop (who designed original X-COM) and is therefore not a JRPG and you can play PS2/DS games on an emulator.

JES has never been the lead designer of a game that bombed.

Yet. And I don't care whether he's the lead designer or not, if he wants to be a top dog, he's got to take responsibility for the abortions he made in the past rather than taking glory for all the good parts while blaming Sega/grognards/the enginge/Jesus for all the shortcomings.

Summing up the importance of strong gameplay, he said, "The idea is that good gameplay ultimately is what you want to create, because that will produce good experiences for people. If you create a game with bad gameplay that was the result of your idea, and it met player expectations, it's still bad and frustrating."

How appropriate, since all of his games thus far have bad gameplay. While all of the design choices leading to those might not have been his ideas, that's his resumé so far.

Ian Frazier made an Ultima V remake using the Dungeon Siege engine, used that to get the lead on Reckoning, and then used that to get to get the lead on ME4. Sounds like someone who's going places.

He's declining pretty fast, I agree.

That person in particular coined the term "contard" a portmanteau of "console" and "retard."

Is that supposed to impress me?

I'm going to stop enabling bad developers.

You should start with Obsidian.

Define grog.

Anything that Roguey/JES doesn't like and any one who opposes his ideas.

 

[Untermensch]

Maximum butthurt achieved

I don't think we've reached it yet

 

[Untermensch]

This thread is now about grog

 

[Roguey]

Define grog.

Pseudo-sim systems with extreme chaos and trial and error.

That was an analogy for how you how to shit post your sawyer quotes on a forum dedicated to grognard RPGs

Is this like that situation where you talked about Serpent Isle while posting a screenshot of Shattered Lands?

Can you point me in the direction of a single designer who is more full of himself than Sawyer, besides Molyneux? Even Romero wasn't that bad, and atleast he gave us Doom, Quake and enabled the creation of Deus Ex.

Any Bioware employee.

You want difficulty to be neutered to the point where it doesn't matter any more

It's entirely possible to have a demanding game that doesn't rely on chaos or trial and error to achieve it. In fact such games can be more demanding. They can also be less. Depends on the goals.

Tactical command was designed by Jullian Gollop (who designed original X-COM) and is therefore not a JRPG and you can play PS2/DS games on an emulator.

I'm not messing with emulators. Moreover, original x-com was really bad when it came to chaos and trial and error, so I don't trust that guy.

Yet. And I don't care whether he's the lead designer or not, if he wants to be a top dog, he's got to take responsibility for the abortions he made in the past rather than taking glory for all the good parts while blaming Sega/grognards/the enginge/Jesus for all the shortcomings.

He already does take responsibility for things that are his fault. You blame him for things he had no control over or was only tangentially involved in.

How appropriate, since all of his games thus far have bad gameplay.

As always

As long as we feel that we hit (our) goals and the majority of players agree, we can't worry about the margins who a) never agreed with those goals or b) don't feel we met them. It's just not a productive way to go about design.

Is that supposed to impress me?

You thought he wanted the "Xbox 360 dark ages" to return when that wasn't the case. He erroneously thought that the decisions Obsidian, Bioware, and Bethesda have made for the past decade were an indication of a consensus regarding the mistakes of the past, and that new pseudo-iso pc-rpgs would also learn from those mistakes. Turns out one should only trust Josh.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/57754-josh-sawyer-at-gdc-europe-2011/page-2#entry1139782

If you're going to make games like the Gold Box series, IE games, or ToEE, make the visual/audio/text combat feedback clear (which really is the player's window into what's going on for such games) and avoid the pointless reload-fodder of all-or-nothing events like the olde tyme Disintegrate spell I cited earlier.

Honestly, though, I don't think many publishers are interested in funding those sorts of games unless they are free-to-play/browser or mobile games. If a publisher wanted us to make one, I'd have no problem doing it. I'd still make the sort of strategic gameplay and mechanical chaos revisions I suggested.

 

[Seaking4]

Josh Sawyer should be liked just because of the amount of butthurt he causes on a forum with 'thick skinned individuals'.

 

[HiddenX]

​

 

[mariog]

Threads like this remind me why I love the codex.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Josh Sawyer should be liked just because of the amount of butthurt he causes on a forum with 'thick skinned individuals'.

By that logic, modern Bioware (and their romance crap) should be liked as well, so should Microsoft for ushering an Xbox era, or Bethesda for raping Fallout. I mean, if we're talking about causing butthurt for Codexers as something to be revered for.

*Which comes off as un overused word in this context. It seems that if you don't feel like Josh's the second coming and/or occasionally respond to Roguey's stuff, you're automatically a butthurt grog or something.

 

[Rake]

Josh Sawyer should be liked just because of the amount of butthurt he causes on a forum with 'thick skinned individuals'.

By that logic, modern Bioware (and their romance crap) should be liked as well, so should Microsoft for ushering an Xbox era, or Bethesda for raping Fallout. I mean, if we're talking about causing butthurt for Codexers as something to be revered for.

*Which comes off as un overused word in this context. It seems that if you don't feel like Josh's the second coming and/or occasionally respond to Roguey's stuff, you're automatically a butthurt grog or something.

First of all, even with all his bullshit opinions, Josh cannot be placed on the same level of attrocious as Bethesda or Bioware.
Second, i disagree with every second opinion of his i read, and many others do, but there is a certain group of posters that their anal devastation is so clear they are hillarious. Somehow they took it sooooooooooo personaly that they go into a fit everytime Sawyer's name is mentioned, and they respond with huge tl;drs in every Roguey's trollbait post. And they are so desparate to make Roguey of all people admit it's wrong, they come of as they lust after it in secret and seek it's attention.

At this point i would side with Roguey just for the lolz

 

[I_am_Ian]

Roguey admittedly enjoys annoying people as well as having awful taste in games.

S/he is pathetic in the most clinical way.

 

[Rake]

Roguey admittedly enjoys annoying people as well as having awful taste in games.

S/he is pathetic in the most clinical way.

What that makes the ones who made it their life's goal to oppose Roguey in every turn, frothing at the mouth while doing so?

 

[I_am_Ian]

Roguey admittedly enjoys annoying people as well as having awful taste in games.

S/he is pathetic in the most clinical way.

What that makes the ones who made it their life's goal to oppose Roguey in every turn, frothing at the mouth while doing so?

It makes them normal human beings. Youre exaggerating of course, but if someone is intentionally being an asshole it doesnt seem unreasonable for it to make another person dislike them.

 

[Abelian]

That's why I'm here, to get away from drooling morons like that. That's why I loathe you, because you just had to infiltrate the only boys club in town and start crying how sexist it is because there are no gurls around. Your posts don't anger me, they make me loathe you and wonder why moderators haven't removed you from the premises.

Does this mean you're not Roguey's alt?

 

[Seaking4]

Josh Sawyer should be liked just because of the amount of butthurt he causes on a forum with 'thick skinned individuals'.

By that logic, modern Bioware (and their romance crap) should be liked as well, so should Microsoft for ushering an Xbox era, or Bethesda for raping Fallout. I mean, if we're talking about causing butthurt for Codexers as something to be revered for.

*Which comes off as an overused word in this context. It seems that if you don't feel like Josh's the second coming and/or occasionally respond to Roguey's stuff, you're automatically a butthurt grog or something.

Who says they shouldn't? Anyways, Bio/Beth have not caused the same kind of anger (or at least recently) and I'm sure you are aware of this. People expect them to make the kind of games they make (for the last decade or so).

It is an appropriate word in this case though.

You don't anger me. [...]

That's why I loathe you.

In case you're curious those thoughts were separated by three sentences. He loathes someone who likes Josh Sawyer's design philosophy. While I agree that butthurt is an annoying and overused phrase that is some grade A rectal pain.

Anyways, what I was trying to get at is that when you look through certain threads on the Codex you can see Codexers posting links to other forums (BSN, RPG Watch, IGN, etc.) where people get upset about what someone on the Codex is saying/reviewing/listing. And they generally enjoy watching other people get upset (classic schadenfreude). Who wouldn't? Then when it happens to someone on the Codex (e.g by a post from a certain someone on Something Awful) it's suddenly wrong to look at other people shitting their pants in anger and laugh? Certainly you are capable of recognizing why I would find that funny?