Roguey vs the Grognards Thread

[Curious_Tongue]

This is my earlier point in a nutshell. Instead of saying "yeah, this game is clearly flawed, but due to some combination, I personally find it enjoyable", you say "Yeah but those legitimate critiques don't apply to my enjoyment of the game, ergo the game is good." It's a shitty, intellectually lazy argument and dismisses very legitimate critiques. Even your defenses of the game are of personal taste, not of an objective measurement. "I liked the quests". So? Some people like shitting on other people's chests - what you like is irrelevant.

I, and others I'm sure, appreciate your efforts to introduce to us the notions of objectivity and subjectivity.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Lol@Roguey of all people going "your tastes are not the only tastes in the world" and speaking of narrow tastes. JES talks like his moronic opinions are law and every one who dislikes his ideas of "fun but fair and balanced gameplay" is wrong in liking games that he personally dislikes. And you Roguey, you only like approximately 2,34 RPGs that weren't made by JES.

Also the quote you posted fails as a rebuttal aimed at me since I only want my RPGs to either have good gameplay or enough positive qualities in other areas to make up for substandard gameplay. You're far more picky and you haven't played as many RPGs as I have since you have weird obsessions over things no sane people gives a shit about (like using steam playerbase as a measuring stick for quality) and you out right refuse to play many well made RPGs (and video games in general) because "I said so". You have a static world view which you protect by refusing to play any games that might subvert your preconceived notions such as "there isn't a single good game that was a commercial failure".

I can only speak for me:

I have no narrow taste in CRPGs (played over 300 of them - many different styles)
I like interesting tactical challenging games with enough diversity to keep up the fun.
I'm not even a special fan of D&D or IE games, but if a game is sold to me as IE game then I want one!
My taste in CRPGs: -> I like all well made ones.

I haven't played as many CRPGs as you have, but my sentiments exactly. I don't give a shit about D&D or table top RPGs, but if a game is advertised as an IE game and is purely riding on the coat tails of BG's success, then it better be an IE game. What a fucking scam artist JES is: Plz guys give me money and I'll make u all delicious hamburgers. Oh, I'm not going to make hamburgers, this lentil soup I've prepared for you is clearly much more nutritious and every one who thinks that hamburgers are more tasty is wrong.

We're not so different, Volourn and I.

You both have asinine opinions and nondescript genders. Can't be a coincidence.

 

[Untermensch]

Look at all these pots calling the kettle black.

 

[Roguey]

As I've said before, it's funny how we've had 4.5 grog-friendly RPGs this year (M&MX, Blackguards, Dragonfall being .5, Divinity: Original Sin, Wasteland 2) and possibly more on the way with AoD, Dead State (maybe another .5), and Grimoire (lol), yet the idea of their being just one for Right-Thinking-Rogueys incites such rage.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

its fucking RTwP. thats reason enough to boycott it.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

its fucking RTwP. thats reason enough to boycott it.

Try 7.62 HC.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

But it is not an RPG.

RTwP has been shit in RPGs since ever.

 

[Zetor]

Freedom Force. /END_OF_LINE

e: though I guess it's not a real RPG. Still, it was pretty great!

 

[Lhynn]

I enjoyed BGII combat a lot more than i did fallouts.

 

[Lujo]

I enjoyed BGII combat a lot more than i did fallouts.

That could be for a million different reasons. If it's about the original falouts, and if it's about turn based vs pause/unpause mode - fallout's problem wasn't that it was turnbased but that it revolved around shooting guns. It's hard to have compelling and enjoyable combat where all the participants basically only have direct damage spells and nothing else.

The hybrid BG style mode was ridiculous and never should've happened, that was one of the worst ideas anyone ever had in the history of gaming. Trying to replay PST lately just has me cringing at the fact that the game was made with that godawful combat system.

 

[TheGreatOne]

I think he's saying that sarcastically. That seems to be a common joke round these here parts, since Fallout has bad combat and it's the only TB game many TB bashers have played

 

[Rake]

I think he's saying that sarcastically. That seems to be a common joke round these here parts, since Fallout has bad combat and it's the only TB game many TB bashers have played

I enjoyed BG2's combat more than the combat in Fallouts, Ultimas, Betrayal at Krondor, Gold Box games, and BG2 with SCS more than ToEE's combat with the atrocious encounter design.
All in all, there is not a single TB RPG i have played that i like it's combat more than BG2 with SCS

Spoiler

JA2 is not an RPG, try again.

 

[Shannow]

I think he's saying that sarcastically. That seems to be a common joke round these here parts, since Fallout has bad combat and it's the only TB game many TB bashers have played

I enjoyed BG2's combat more than the combat in Fallouts, Ultimas, Betrayal at Krondor, Gold Box games, and BG2 with SCS more than ToEE's combat with the atrocious encounter design.
All in all, there is not a single TB RPG i have played that i like it's combat more than BG2 with SCS

Spoiler

JA2 is not an RPG, try again.

It is. No need to try again. And even if it wasn't, that doesn't mean that its combat couldn't be in an RPG.
What you need to think about, is how BG2's spell selection and encounter-design would have performed in a ToEE-engine. And then consider whether that'd be better or worse that RTwP.
Personally I already thought that BG should be TB when I originally played it. That was before I learned about PnP and before I played any game with good TB-gameplay...

 

[dryan]

Dragonfall being .5,

Why .5?

 

[HiddenX]

JA2 is not an RPG, try again.

 

[Rake]

It is. No need to try again. And even if it wasn't, that doesn't mean that its combat couldn't be in an RPG.
What you need to think about, is how BG2's spell selection and encounter-design would have performed in a ToEE-engine. And then consider whether that'd be better or worse that RTwP.
Personally I already thought that BG should be TB when I originally played it. That was before I learned about PnP and before I played any game with good TB-gameplay...

No arguement here. Yes, both JA2 and ToEE had better combat engines than BG. And, yes, TB in a theoretical level is more tactical than RTwP. But to dismiss RTwP as inherently shit, when 90% of RTwP games have better combat than 90% of TB games is BS.

And i haven't even played 7.62 HC or Freedom Force. Are they good?

 

[Lujo]

I think he's saying that sarcastically. That seems to be a common joke round these here parts, since Fallout has bad combat and it's the only TB game many TB bashers have played

I enjoyed BG2's combat more than the combat in Fallouts, Ultimas, Betrayal at Krondor, Gold Box games, and BG2 with SCS more than ToEE's combat with the atrocious encounter design.
All in all, there is not a single TB RPG i have played that i like it's combat more than BG2 with SCS

Spoiler

JA2 is not an RPG, try again.

Well, tbh, I find ToEE unplayable because the 2nd and 3rd edition D&D aged terribly. I played both P&P too, and loved them as a kid, but I'd see myself as a terrible grognard if I even tried to justify it. (Also, I actually know why and how the term "grognard" came to be the french synonim for "old soldier". It means "complainer" and the vets were the only ones allowed to grumble).

There were never too many proper RPGS developed with turn based combat in mind, but I did enjoy Homm IV (yes, the strategy one, all the other ones were really simplistic, this one, with all the expansions and a small bit of balance modding was a deep game) one a lot if you limited the resurection potions. That's not an RPG, but the selection of spells in combination with the abilities led to interesting situations and was overall rather fun. If you think of your troops as "heroes" and their numbers as just another HP/DR/Damage modifier, it basically IS a tactical RPG XD

I also liked the dragonfall setup - it was done by obvious hacks and amateurs, but with proper playtesting it could've been a great system for a story driven RPG. It's rather basic, but it's also rather fun if you design challenges for it appropriately.

I'm not sure why anyone would actually preffer the BG2 system to anything, I see 0 benefits to it, and it's was literally a product of misplaced executive logic that P&P inherently doesn't translate too well to videogames or that having stuff happen in semi real time is somehow an improvement (lets you show off grahics or something). IDK for me Diablo wasn't an RPG, it was what you'd call an "arcade" game back then and it was, also verifiably, a result of people who were developing an RPG just giving up and publishing a bit of it as a game. BG guys never had a proper justification to mix real time into it.

Real time got mixed into RPG's by either a massive executive brain fart or by trying to make an RPG and FAILING, and providing something that looks like an RPG but isn't. The fact that it caught on with people is not necessarily misterious, but the fact people who like that sort of thing ever get to interact with people who like actual RPG's in a public forum is still mind-blowing. Back in the day they knew they had nothing to discuss and weren't led to believe that they had enough common ground to even be talking about the same game.

 

[Rake]

I with people who like actual RPG's

Like HoM&M IV ?

 

[Immortal]

I think he's saying that sarcastically. That seems to be a common joke round these here parts, since Fallout has bad combat and it's the only TB game many TB bashers have played

I loved NWN2 Combat more than the Fallouts

 

[Roguey]

It's been a while since I've provided fresh Josh quotes. Over a month I guess.

Remember when rope kid was gonna make a Gauntlet reboot with an epic story and then they fired him and made it some Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance crap

i wasn't fired.

All of the references to how 5th is doing it "just like video games" has me REALLY leery. Everything wrong with 4th edition was extremely video game-y, and made the experience much less fun. 4th played very much like an MMO, which was its greatest downfall. Attacks worked like boring macros; classes all felt incredibly same-y (I never really figured out how any class was different from any other, because at the end of the day every class's action was to roll d20 to hit and d8 for damage at early levels, and scaled in exactly the same way); PCs were so powerful compared to the world around them at level 1 that it was impossible to make a quest that's anything but an epic journey to save the world, meaning that a lot of other story-types are right out. Playing 4th edition felt like playing a lame mobile tap-to-attack RPG. Complete with nickel-and-dining DLC, of course, considering buying the PH only got you half of the classes.

For now, I'll stick with Pathfinder. It ain't broke, and even if it were, this sounds like a REALLY clumsy attempt to fix past editions.

i've heard at least a dozen people rattle off some version of this and when i ask them how much 4e they played it's invariably 0-2 sessions at first level.

btw at gen con this year there was a huge line of ppl waiting to buy pathfinder books for above normal retail price.

Haha grognards. You know what they say about fools and their money.

Dragonfall being .5,

Why .5?

The character system is awful grog shit. OTOH it displays the stat thresholds in dialogue regardless of whether you meet the requirement, it has a somewhat less-chaotic damage system that was made even less chaotic with Dragonfall DC, and it doesn't get excessively fiddly with inventory management.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Haha grognards. You know what they say about fools and their money.

They give it to Sawyer when he promises them an 'IE successor'?

 

[Roguey]

Obsidian made it clear in their Kickstarter pitch that they were making a new RPG system. If anyone thought they were going to do what Pierre Begue did and slightly modify 3.5, that's on them.

 

[Immortal]

Obsidian made it clear in their Kickstarter pitch that they were making a new RPG system. If anyone thought they were going to do what Pierre Begue did and slightly modify 3.5, that's on them.

Can you talk about Josh adding combat xp through the bestiary to appease his fan base? Wouldn't this be considered flip flop pandering?

 

[DefJam101]

As I've said before, it's funny how we've had 4.5 grog-friendly RPGs this year (M&MX, Blackguards, Dragonfall being .5, Divinity: Original Sin, Wasteland 2) and possibly more on the way with AoD, Dead State (maybe another .5), and Grimoire (lol), yet the idea of their being just one for Right-Thinking-Rogueys incites such rage.

We've had approximately 56038.83 dudebro-friendly shooters released this year and not a single Quakebuildoom-y game among them for Right-Thinking-DJ to enjoy. Maybe I should start shitposting unsupported fifteen-year-old John Romero quotechunks ad nauseam to casually dismiss anyone who doesn't follow my strict bi-weekly Doom-assisted masturbation regimen. Aside from Romero being a raging coke fiend I can find no flaws in this plan. It sounds like a great use of my time.

 

[DefJam101]

But to dismiss RTwP as inherently shit, when 90% of RTwP games have better combat than 90% of TB games

citation needed