Roguey vs the Grognards Thread

[Clockwork Knight]

What Roguey means is that in NV you take 75% damage during VATS (In FO3 you took 10%), so if you were almost surely going to die entering Vats is unlikely to save you.

 

[Roguey]

That and

The V.A.T.S. critical chance bonus is 5% instead of 15%
Enemies are less aggressively slowed down; while all enemies move slower in V.A.T.S., those not actively targeted are not slowed nearly as dramatically.

Unrelated question: Does World of Warcraft or some other popular MMO have shortcuts to the entrance or the outside world in every dungeon once you reach the end? Skyrim and Dungeon Siege III both have it as a feature and they were both released in 2011, so it seems more likely to me that they copied it from some other game rather than independently coming to the same solution to the Backtracking Problem.

I'm sure the simulationists hate it, but I approve of anything that removes tedious walking.

 

[tuluse]

I'm pretty sure Zelda games have done that for a long time.

 

[CyberP]

Good to hear they did in fact do something for VATS. Still OP though.

 

[Roguey]

I'm pretty sure Zelda games have done that for a long time.

I never played any of the 3D Zeldas but my experience is that it fades to black and you automatically exit after you kill the boss and get its thing.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Usually you enter a portal of some kind that appears after the boss' defeat, which is pretty much the same thing.

 

[Immortal]

What Roguey means is that in NV you take 75% damage during VATS (In FO3 you took 10%), so if you were almost surely going to die entering Vats is unlikely to save you.

It's not god mode necessarily because your VATs time is limited by a resource expenditure but if people are dying in VATs.. for either FO3 or NV..

That and

The V.A.T.S. critical chance bonus is 5% instead of 15%
Enemies are less aggressively slowed down; while all enemies move slower in V.A.T.S., those not actively targeted are not slowed nearly as dramatically.

Unrelated question: Does World of Warcraft or some other popular MMO have shortcuts to the entrance or the outside world in every dungeon once you reach the end? Skyrim and Dungeon Siege III both have it as a feature and they were both released in 2011, so it seems more likely to me that they copied it from some other game rather than independently coming to the same solution to the Backtracking Problem.

I'm sure the simulationists hate it, but I approve of anything that removes tedious walking.

Yes they started doing shortcuts to the end of instances around the BC expansion back, it became much more popular in WotLK.. This wasn't soley their idea either though, many people bitched about the long times running back so instead of giving players a free teleport they started designing instances to loop or have patterns that would always back track onto itself.

How it works now.. I have no idea.. I quit the game in WotLK

 

[Ninjerk]

There's at least one of the Dire Maul instances that had a back exit. I think Mauradon might have had one, as well?

 

[CyberP]

I'm sure the simulationists hate it, but I approve of anything that removes tedious walking.

I'm pretty sure Zelda games have done that for a long time.

True. Zelda's dungeons are actually challenging, interesting and varied though. Skyrim's dungeons haven't got shit on them.
And yes, as a simulationist I dislike circuit dungeon design. Variety is preferable: portals, multiple entrances/exits, other times backtracking is in order and so on. In Skyrim there are no surprises, almost every copy & paste dungeon has a copy n paste "secret" exit of sorts. Boring & immersion-breaking.

 

[Dreaad]

^ this. Secrets exit are fine occasionally but they are kinda retarded when they serve no purpose but to teleport you out of the dungeon. Can you find the secret exit from the other side....no. Can you find secret passages that make you avoid part of the dungeon....no. Might as well have just made fast travel possible inside last room of the dungeon and spare the player walking 10 feet in an empty rock corridor.

 

[Daemongar]

There's at least one of the Dire Maul instances that had a back exit. I think Mauradon might have had one, as well?

Well, in WOW you could also just use your hearth stone to teleport out. Initially only a few dungeons had exits near the boss, then around Lich King, I think they all did. Just trying to brush off my memory of the good WOW (level 60 cap WOW) and... think you are on target. Thought a few had shortcuts you could only use once the boss was gone. (Lower Blackrock Spire had a ledge you could jump off to put you near the start, and such.)

 

[St. Toxic]

a game where being retarded is an actual obstacle to making it through alive.

Never again.

 

[Roguey]

Moving the discussion of my own volition, look how considerate I am.

It's not really because it's a beta. It's because of the mechanics. You better cross your fingers that we provide the right feedback in the next few months or combat is going to be pretty bad just like every other Obsidian game. I can see it getting better, and possibly even becoming fun, but it's still got a long way to go. So I can't really guarantee that it will be that fun on release.

I have played (realtime) betas that have been further behind than this and the combat was fun and enjoyable.

I do believe Nathaniel Chapman's quote was correct though.

So if PE's combat does become good, I don't think it will be until one of the very last patches.

Overestimating the value of your own input, as expected.

Facts: a) Obsidian knew what state their beta was in when they presented it at gamescom and insisted on the winter 2014 release date (turns out it literally will be winter 2014). b) Josh hasn't been surprised or blindsided by any of the feedback he's received. As the most honest person in the industry, he would say if he was. c) Real-time with pause is one of the hardest things to get right because of all the extra attention that has to be paid to pathfinding and visibility that isn't such a big deal in turn-based or even pure-real-time games. d) I thought the combat in New Vegas and Dungeon Siege III was adequate. They're both better games than Skyrim as far as I'm concerned.

I'll only be concerned about the state of the project if it's in a bad state by late-November and not a moment earlier.

 

[Sensuki]

We is plural and your a/b/c shit is telling me things I already know. The project is going fine, but I'd hold my breath on combat if I were you - since you don't like to be disappointed. But hey I suppose you could always lie to yourself if it turned out to be bad *shrug*

The writing and quests are good though, although that's not really a surprise.

 

[Roguey]

My Icewind Dale articles show that I can criticize Josh-designed games just fine.

I'll be truly surprised if I end up enjoying some grog-game with systems designed by incompetents released this year over Josh-fixes-D&D.

 

[Rake]

I thought the combat in New Vegas and Dungeon Siege III was adequate. They're both better games than Skyrim as far as I'm concerned.

By your own, (and Josh's) beliefs, that is incorect. I remember you saying that huge sales and huge number of people continuing playing the game years after release are the marks of "audience satisfaction".
And i remember you using the "number of people playing" on steamcharts to bash DOS and WL2, while praise FNV.
And Skyrim wipes the floor with NV by your own criteria

Also, a grog designed game that plays like PST (let alone BG2) is better than a Josh designed game if the later plays like NWN2

 

[Sensuki]

well there's a difference between just being good and living up to expectations - maybe mine are higher for the game than yours

 

[Roguey]

By your own, (and Josh's) beliefs, that is incorect. I remember you saying that huge sales and huge number of people continuing playing the game years after release are the marks of "audience satisfaction".
And i remember you using the "number of people playing" on steamcharts to bash DOS and WL2, while praise FNV.
And Skyrim wipes the floor with NV by your own criteria

Audience satisfaction has nothing to do with my personal assessment. Skyrim does some things well that people really like; these things aren't present or aren't done as well in DS3 or New Vegas.

 

[Luzur]

^ this. Secrets exit are fine occasionally but they are kinda retarded when they serve no purpose but to teleport you out of the dungeon. Can you find the secret exit from the other side....no. Can you find secret passages that make you avoid part of the dungeon....no. Might as well have just made fast travel possible inside last room of the dungeon and spare the player walking 10 feet in an empty rock corridor.

By the end of my Skyrim session i simply console commanded away the one-way secret door right at the start and got to the boss and/or gimmick for quest that way instead.

Every dungeon had them so i learned to recognize the special part of wall it was textured as.

 

[CyberP]

True. Zelda's dungeons are actually challenging, interesting and varied though. Skyrim's dungeons haven't got shit on them..

Well, for the old 2D Zeldas anyway. I haven't played any of the 3D ones. I am weary of them.

 

[St. Toxic]

They're actually pretty well designed, at least what I remember from the N64 ones. Ofc, the design philosophy revolves around introducing a particular gimmick that carries the theme of the dungeon, which feels a bit formulaic, but the further in you get the more you need to use the entire array of your kit to really clear a dungeon, and the level and puzzle design itself is top notch. I wouldn't want to oversell the games but Zelda gained a lot by making the transition to 3d. It's not like the case with, I don't know, Fallout.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The recent 3D Zeldas haven't been quite as popular, but it's more because they're getting stagnant (let's make another Ocarina of Time). They're good for what they are.

 

[CyberP]

I wouldn't want to oversell the games but Zelda gained a lot by making the transition to 3d. It's not like the case with, I don't know, Fallout.

Nobody has yet put forward a compelling case as to why they believe NV is lacklustre yet (sorry NotAGolfer)...
Sure the Codex has likely had such discussions back on release but I think many people don't give it enough time or don't look hard enough.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Yes they started doing shortcuts to the end of instances around the BC expansion back, it became much more popular in WotLK.. This wasn't soley their idea either though, many people bitched about the long times running back so instead of giving players a free teleport they started designing instances to loop or have patterns that would always back track onto itself.

It's fucking bullshit how in Burning Crusade they turned every single new instance into a linear romp with 3 bosses and 1 end boss. You had huge, complex, multilayered and maze like dungeons in vanilla WoW that could have 15 and even 20+ bosses and multiple routes. No two dungeons felt the same and all of them had their own secrets, short cuts, tricks and exploits. Then they decided that it's better to make dungeons where all you do is go forward. And in wotlk they got rid of crowd control too because waiting and having to think for a second is boring. And having to actually look for a group yourself as well. Such decline. It's shameful when an entry level dungeon like Wailing Caverns is more complex and demanding than level 90 "hardcore" dungeons.
That's not to say vanilla dungeons were flawless. They were so big and often had such a large level range that you usually couldn't clear them in one run and it was unlikely to find a group of people who all wanted to kill all the same bosses as you. And obviously boss design was much simpler and more copy pasted in vanilla.

By your own, (and Josh's) beliefs, that is incorect. I remember you saying that huge sales and huge number of people continuing playing the game years after release are the marks of "audience satisfaction".
And i remember you using the "number of people playing" on steamcharts to bash DOS and WL2, while praise FNV.
And Skyrim wipes the floor with NV by your own criteria

He cherry picks these things when ever they're convenient for his case. When it turned out that D:OS had better gameplay than any game that JES has ever made, this guy started saying that the game is failure because it didn't sell 1 million units and because Larian didn't include an extra dungeon in the game even though they promised they would. There's no method to his madness, he just grasps on to what ever excuse he can with his greasy little hands when he's shown to be wrong and runs out of arguments. It also goes both ways: never a word about the failings of games like Alpha Protocol, and every single thing wrong in Sawyer games from their poor critical and financial reception to bugginess, poor gameplay and even poor balance (the same issues he uses for discreting superior games made by other developers), it's always the fault of some one other than "the best CRPG designer of all time who turns every game he works on to pure gold".

My Icewind Dale articles show that I can criticize Josh-designed games just fine.

So you critize the most engaging game JES ever made. Why? We need to come up with a term that describes people like Roguey. You clearly don't give a shit about quality of gameplay, but you also don't seem like a storyfag. What are you besides a tranny? A balancefag? One of those indy twats who think that being "elegant" is the end goal of design? Speaking of World of Warcraft and balancefags, it's thanks to people like JES that Blizzard decided to make every single class exactly the same. No more balance issues, yay.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

We need to come up with a term that describes people like Roguey.