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Risen

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I mean faster, yeah. I think mages have to wait till they meet Inquisitor Mendoza to max it out, the mage who trains then stops teaching at a particular level. That said I wonder if it's possible to go the melee route after having chosen the mage path... Think I'll give that a shot sometime this week.
 
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You talk like the magic system in Piranha Bytes games does replace the melee system completely.
But the magic in these games is more like the (cross)bows; you use it to damage the opponent before he gets to melee.


You can do that, but in my opinion, that is the worst way to play these games. I've always preferred to either specialize in arms or magic and not both, as that makes a lot more sense lore-wise (some barely literate soldier/mercenary casting arcane symbols from ancient books? a bookworm running around a battlefield with a sword?), but that's mostly personal preference. Gothic/Risen's melee combat system is actually really nice, so why would you want to dilute it with magic? You already have bows/crossbows to aggro the mob and do a little damage before it gets close, and those are balanced for that, they don't work well once the enemy gets into melee range. Magic on the other hand, it can work just as well, or even better in melee, so once you start using it, no point to just use it partially. This to me is the whole point of specialization in an RPG, you only have to so many points, so use them to go melee/ranged/utility or use them to go full-bore magic/alchemy.

Pure mages aren't viable (or more like not fun to play) in G1 and R1. And in G2 just when you use these massive overpowered (goblin)skeletons. Or at the late endgame.
In G1 and R1 you just skill magic stuff and strength/weapon skill; and in G2 due to the expensive skill costs you stick with the master rapier???(Meisterdegen).
So there is no playthrough of a Piranha Bytes game where you have to miss the brilliant melee system.

No idea what you are talking about. I beat Gothic 2 easily as a pure mage, so easily in fact, it almost felt like cheating after how challenging the melee system was. Gothic 1, I played as a mage for a bit, didn't finish (got bored by magic), but it was fairly easy as well.
 
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I think I just figured out Risen's swordfighting system (axe and staff fighting probably work along the same lines), after over 15 hours in the game. Some of you might know this already, but probably not everyone, as I saw a bunch of comments online before from people who seem baffled by the combat and/or use cheap exploits like our friend earlier in the thread with his power attack from distance bs.

Nothing like that, I believe I just completely understood how it's supposed to be used by the devs, and almost instantaneously went from a so-so fighter (50/50 or worse winning or getting ass kicked) to pretty much master at my level of NPCs. My issue was that I went into it with a Gothic mindset, using my experience from Gothic 1/2 to try to play melee combat the same way. In Gothics, you would try to parry the enemy humanoid with sharp timing and then quickly counterattack, before readying yourself for another parry/counterattack. The problem was, if you remember Gothics, NPCs sometimes attacked VERY FAST without a lot of tells, and were also fairly unpredictable sometimes, delaying their attack or attacking some number of times in a row. I think for most of us, the solution to that was to subconsciously cheat a little, and recognize each NPC's pattern to some degree after meeting them a few times, and knowing in advance how many times to parry in a row. It was still a cool combat system, but that was a bit of a flaw.

Anyways, so I went into Risen with the same mindset, and tried to parry with timing and then counter-attack after the other guy is helpless (from a proper parry). But in Risen, this was even more of a problem than in Gothics, because humanoids are really tricky with their attack timing. They will fake you out quite frequently, delaying attack when it seems like they will strike, or moving side to side to confuse you before unleashing a cobra-quick strike. So predicting when the attack comes to the degree that the parry requires is tricky business, and that's why I was a mediocre fighter, winning when I guessed right, but often losing when the NPC delayed to get my parry out of the way, and then struck me afterwards.

Today, as I was fighting in the Bandit Camp arena against the other fighters, I finally got it. The system is actually quite different from Gothic 1/2 in this regard. After getting level 2 in swordfighting, your parries, instead of being a static defensive move, become a minor circular attack, so even if you miss the parry, you can strike the enemy for a small amount of damage. But what's important, what I missed before, is that being circular moves, you can actually string parries together the same way as you do with attacks. So if you right mouse click to parry, and then click again very quickly, you will do a 2nd parry very fast that continues from your first parry, and then the third, and so on. On top of that, by doing these circular parries, you are actually building up body/weapon momentum, so the kind of attack you perform after successful parrying someone changes. If you attack after parrying once, you do the 1st regular attack, a simple slash. After doing 2 parries in a row and then attacking, you perform a more powerful sideways round-slash for much more damage. And if you string together 3 parries in a row, the attack will be a massively damaging overhead blow.

But so you don't think it's skill-less and you just spam parries, it doesn't work that way. If you try spamming parries, the NPCs will easily attack in between them (remember for a parry to be successful, it has to be timed exactly when the NPC attack comes), and do massive damage to you while you are doing minor damage to them with the parry offensive component. So the way the system is actually meant to work, you still try to anticipate when the NPC will attack, and throw out a parry. If they do indeed attack, you ve got yourself a counter-parry and can hit them while they are helpless. But, if they just tricked you, and aren't attacking, you now have a small window to perform a 2nd parry in the parry combo, and if it succeeds, do a more powerful counter-attack. If it fails again, you have the same small window to perform a 3rd parry and so on. So you still have to time things, and to anticipate the NPCs attacks, but it no longer has to be 100% exact, because if you messed up because the NPC is being tricky, you can follow up with subsequent parries for when they finally do strike.

Anyways, maybe this is way too much text for what might be obvious to most people, but I saw a lot of confusion about this online and thought I'd throw it out there.
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Block and counter, power attack on occasion. That's it men. Also power attacking seems cheap, but it's very good against the lizards.
 

WhiteGuts

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In my playthrough I spent a bunch of time doing stuff in the Don's camp, which allowed me to become a good melee fighter, and only THEN I went to the Monastry to do magic stuff. So I became a sort of Mage/melee hybrid which gave me more options when it came to combat. It also allowed me to see a lot more content in playthrough than I would've if I stuck with just one side from the beginning.
 

hivemind

Guest
game is fun at the start and in Esteban's Camp imo

i got beyond bored however when I was sent to hunt for some pieces of a broken stone or something around the different parts of the island by the one eyed mage guy in the monastery
 

Kahr

Guest
That said I wonder if it's possible to go the melee route after having chosen the mage path... Think I'll give that a shot sometime this week.
Perfectly doable. Done did it.
You can do that, but in my opinion, that is the worst way to play these games. I've always preferred to either specialize in arms or magic and not both, as that makes a lot more sense lore-wise (some barely literate soldier/mercenary casting arcane symbols from ancient books? a bookworm running around a battlefield with a sword?), but that's mostly personal preference.
For other games i would understand that, but for the PB ones it just doesn't work for me. The thing is you have too many learn points (yes even in G2) to just learn magic. You have to wait till the next chapter to use better spells anyway, so why don't use them to make you stronger and the game more fun? Also having all spells of a circle or having more mana doesn't help you either...
Magic on the other hand, it can work just as well, or even better in melee, so once you start using it, no point to just use it partially.
Sorry, but i didn't have the impression that the magic in PB games does work good in melee. G1 maybe because it's far too easy. But what melee spells are we talking about in G2? (you don't know about R1 yet)
Obviously skeletons. But are you a pure mage when you spam one rune? I don't think so. Ice lance and fire ball for example are so bad.
This to me is the whole point of specialization in an RPG, you only have to so many points, so use them to go melee/ranged/utility or use them to go full-bore magic/alchemy.
Specialiization works in many other games, but in the PB games melee is mandatory.
No idea what you are talking about. I beat Gothic 2 easily as a pure mage, so easily in fact, it almost felt like cheating after how challenging the melee system was. Gothic 1, I played as a mage for a bit, didn't finish (got bored by magic), but it was fairly easy as well.
What runes? How would you define "pure mage"? Romp and stomp with summons? What did you do with all your other learn points? Mage gets very op later that's right. But i found melee far easier. Just spending in strength, twohanded weapons is foolproof. Also you said it yourself: the melee system is skill-based, so after a time you learn it and it gets easy. The magic has just mostly bad spells.

Edit: You played NotR as mage, right?

After reflecting a little bit i agree with the magic system being bad. But when you use it as a half-mage it's good enough and makes fun. You're right that there should be no playthrough without enough melee because it's one of the best parts of these games. (G1, G2, R1) But i don't see the consequence to abandon the magic system alltogether.




 
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For other games i would understand that, but for the PB ones it just doesn't work for me. The thing is you have too many learn points (yes even in G2) to just learn magic. You have to wait till the next chapter to use better spells anyway, so why don't use them to make you stronger and the game more fun? Also having all spells of a circle or having more mana doesn't help you either...


Well, you do need to spend some basic points early on on melee/ranged, because in PB games, it takes a while to get to magic, but you can do that with just the bare minimum, and still save most of your learning points for magic.

Sorry, but i didn't have the impression that the magic in PB games does work good in melee. G1 maybe because it's far too easy. But what melee spells are we talking about in G2? (you don't know about R1 yet)
Obviously skeletons. But are you a pure mage when you spam one rune? I don't think so. Ice lance and fire ball for example are so bad.


I beat G2 as a mage about when it came out, so this was a long time ago, don't remember the names, but if I recall correctly, there was a ranged spell that basically froze your enemy besides doing damage. So by spamming that, you could kill anything without it even being able to do anything about it. Shitty but effective.

What runes? How would you define "pure mage"? Romp and stomp with summons?


I would define it as spend the bare minimum to get to magedom, then everything on mage abilities and utility, not melee/ranged.

Edit: You played NotR as mage, right?


No, played it as a mage when it came out, before NotR. I did beat it with NotR later on as a melee fighter, so I don't think anything in NotR would prevent me from spamming that freeze spell. If anything, NotR is much harder (and more interesting) for a melee build.
 

Kahr

Guest
Well, you do need to spend some basic points early on on melee/ranged, because in PB games, it takes a while to get to magic, but you can do that with just the bare minimum, and still save most of your learning points for magic.
Believe me you just don't need that much lp for magic. You learn like 5 runes, and you don't need that much mana.
I beat G2 as a mage about when it came out, so this was a long time ago, don't remember the names, but if I recall correctly, there was a ranged spell that basically froze your enemy besides doing damage. So by spamming that, you could kill anything without it even being able to do anything about it. Shitty but effective.
Of course you could use these cheap stuff, but it's the same as exploiting the power attack in Risen again and again. I don't call that fun. A well skilled hybrid mage does make fun imo. But well subjectivity and stuff.
I would define it as spend the bare minimum to get to magedom, then everything on mage abilities and utility, not melee/ranged.
But there is nothing in the magedom part which would make anymore sense to skill. Just burning lps.
No, played it as a mage when it came out, before NotR. I did beat it with NotR later on as a melee fighter, so I don't think anything in NotR would prevent me from spamming that freeze spell. If anything, NotR is much harder (and more interesting) for a melee build.
Haven't played with spamming ice block, so i don't know, very possible it would work again. But they decreased the damage of most spells and increased the mana costs, so i'm not sure if spaming would still work that well.

But it isn't the magic systems fault that you don't like it.
 
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Well, like everything else in life, Risen has managed to disappoint me after a while. :( And no, I don't mean the lizardmen, haven't gotten to that yet. But the combat system is not as good as I hoped, or in particular, it's not as good as Gothic 1/2. The reason being, one of the great things about combat in G1/2 is that by leveling up your weapon skill (one or two handed), you not only did more damage, but also improved your attack/parry speed and animations. So when you started out, you swung the sword like an oaf and couldn't effectively parry anyone, but once you got high levels of weapon skill, the way you held the sword changed, and the way you swung became much smoother and quicker.

On top of that, there was also a significant difference in speed between one and two handed weapons, and if you went one-handed like me, you could parry and strike VERY quickly. In addition, enemy humanoids attacked with a bit of a tell, in other words, there would be some movement to let you know that an attack is coming, and that would give you enough time to throw out a parry. So when you combined all of those things, you could rely on your reflexes and timing to effectively neutralize the other guy and counter-attack.

In Risen, it doesn't work like that. First off, the weapon skill seems to have zero effect on weapon speed. I've got my sword skill up to 6/10 now, and attacks and parries are still at the same speed as when I started the game. Parrying in particular feels quite cumbersome and slow compared to G1/2. Also, there doesn't seem to be a huge difference in parrying speed between one and two handed swords, both feel slow.

And on the flip side, enemies in Risen attack way too fast and unpredictably. For a lot of their attacks, there is no way you can just watch them and try to parry when they actually swing, because once you see the beginning of their attack, it will complete in something like .2 seconds and you won't even be able to start your slow parry in that time. There are some exceptions to this, sometimes they will do slower attacks you can see coming, and sometimes you can get them locked into a predictable routine, but it varies, and gives the combat a very unpredictable nature, sort of out of your control. So what you end up doing is instead of actually trying to time your parries to the enemy's attacks, you try to time them to when you expect the enemy to attack and throw them up before you actually see the attack. If it works, great, if not, you throw another parry later on and so on. So where in G1/2, after you leveled your skills and learned the system, you felt like a swordmaster, in complete control, in Risen, it doesn't feel anywhere near that good.
 

Gord

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I bought Risen 1 (and 2 :M ) in a bundle recently and just finished it (played a melee bandit).
Overall it's a nice game, a lot of Gothic vibes in it, with the typical Piranha Bytes flair.

Chapter 1 and 2 are were the meat of the game is, with side quests and opportunities to use some of the utility skills (sneaking/pickpocketing) in quests.
Chapter 3 is one large dungeon romp with much fighting, chapter 4 is a sequence of dungeons with much more fighting. At least the last two chapters are relatively short.

I had fun with it, and while I didn't get exactly bored with it during 3+4, nevertheless it's a pity that they reduced it to simple lizardmen-bashing there. With a few more interesting side-quests in the latter parts of the game, it would have been much better.
 

Shagnak

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I had fun with it, and while I didn't get exactly bored with it during 3+4, nevertheless it's a pity that they reduced it to simple lizardmen-bashing there. With a few more interesting side-quests in the latter parts of the game, it would have been much better.
Yeah, this. I loved the first half (?), but once the groups of lizardmen started spawning everywhere, my enjoyment really began to nosedive. Such potential wasted.
Still, I eked enough enjoyment out of it to get to the end, and then couldn't believe how terrible the end boss fight was. It was a terrible fit for the game. Gimmicky, even.

PB games always seem to have worth playing, and have moments of excellence, but I can't think of a game of theirs that hasn't left me with mixed feelings. (though I haven't played Risen 3)
 

sullynathan

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I can already tell that there are better combat systems than Risen from the 5 minutes of it I played. No reason for other devs to be influenced by Piranha after that.
 
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If I get this right, he thinks the game is undecided about what you require to become better: either it is player skill and playing longer should make you more knowledgeable about enemy patterns, or it is character skills and improving your stats should make your character largely better other than pure damage. His problem is that neither seems to be true, which is a legitimate complaint, but games will never be perfect and something as good as Risen is rare enough that I am willing to give it some slack.

That was the beauty of Gothic 1/2, that they combined player and character skill in an elegant way. You needed character skill (high combat skills) in order to perform quick and smoothly flowing maneuvers, but once you had that, you still needed player skill to time your parries and watch the enemy. In Risen, on the other hand, both seem worse, as character skill doesn't improve your fighting as much (doesn't seem to affect attack/parry speed for example), and player skill is less important because based on how quickly and unpredictably enemies attack and how slow your response moves are, you can't really master the system that way, and must instead rely on trial-and-error parries.

Turtling behind your shield until you find a way is, I hope, not a critic any more than it is in Dark Souls, that's precisely what makes these games so great. In fact, I love playing slow swingers in such games precisely because it makes your moves important and deliberate. I had a lot of fun playing Kingdoms of Amalur with a hammer or a two-handed sword because a lot of enemies are very fast and they dodge and jump around constantly. Essentially you are the slow predictable Dark Souls boss dealing with weakling players trying to cheese you out.

That's not really skillful though, nor gratifying, not in the way G1/2 was when you managed to masterfully parry every orc blow and take the monster down.
 

adddeed

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I can already tell that there are better combat systems than Risen from the 5 minutes of it I played. No reason for other devs to be influenced by Piranha after that.
Oh wow such expert. Only needs 5 minutes. We are not worthy.



Dumbass.
 

Metro

Arcane
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Sully you're as bad as him. Go take some more pictures of your feet.
 

Gord

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That was the beauty of Gothic 1/2, that they combined player and character skill in an elegant way. You needed character skill (high combat skills) in order to perform quick and smoothly flowing maneuvers, but once you had that, you still needed player skill to time your parries and watch the enemy. In Risen, on the other hand, both seem worse, as character skill doesn't improve your fighting as much (doesn't seem to affect attack/parry speed for example), and player skill is less important because based on how quickly and unpredictably enemies attack and how slow your response moves are, you can't really master the system that way, and must instead rely on trial-and-error parries.


I got the impression that sometimes the enemy AI would counter you if you used the same approach for too long, but that might just as well be a RNG in the background deciding what the enemy will do in combat. My biggest issues with the system were that blocking is OP and how it's too difficult/risky to use parries and counterattacks. The parries are relatively hard to time right and counterattacks are interrupted too easily since all enemies seem to generally attack much faster than yourself - or their combat moves always take precedence over the player's.

On the other hand you can safely turtle behind your shield until the enemy does expose himself finally, or you manage to flank him. Later on power attacks can break his blocks, which does indeed throw all pretense of tactical combat overboard. Meanwhile few enemies can break you shield block and attack fast enough to do damage. Most damage I took was from enemies interrupting my own attacks.

The combat system is not really bad, but again it's best early in the game (and then mostly against NPC), where fighting is still somewhat tactical.
 
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I got the impression that sometimes the enemy AI would counter you if you used the same approach for too long, but that might just as well be a RNG in the background deciding what the enemy will do in combat.

Either that, or it's just programmed in general to be unpredictable. A lot of times, they establish a certain rhythm to their attacks, and then when you expect them to attack, they do nothing, baiting out your parry and then attacking afterwards. This might be a good thing if you had a nice way to respond, but because the attacks happen so fast, you don't.

My biggest issues with the system were that blocking is OP and how it's too difficult/risky to use parries and counterattacks. The parries are relatively hard to time right and counterattacks are interrupted too easily since all enemies seem to generally attack much faster than yourself - or their combat moves always take precedence over the player's.

Yeah, parrying/counter-attacking is definitely not as effective in Risen as in Gothic 1/2. I am ok with it now, by essentially spamming parry, so I can win fights, but I still end up taking damage from time to time, and occasionaly lose outright. The enemy speed depends on the weapon used (one handed swords/knives are the fastest, 2 handed axes the slowest and easiest to parry) and maybe creature type as well. Those effing gnomes are retardedly fast, and there is like zero chance of parrying them, so I just spam attack or something against them. Shield block is not for me, especially the way it's implemented in Risen, the Oblivion way of just holding a block as if someone would be stupid enough to attack your block/parry. Again, this is why G1/2 were much better, you couldn't hold parry (or use shields), skill all the way.

On the other hand you can safely turtle behind your shield until the enemy does expose himself finally, or you manage to flank him. Later on power attacks can break his blocks, which does indeed throw all pretense of tactical combat overboard. Meanwhile few enemies can break you shield block and attack fast enough to do damage. Most damage I took was from enemies interrupting my own attacks.

This is something I really don't get. The core of the combat system in G1/2, which Risen built on, was the parry/counter-attack mechanic. In fact, this mechanic was so good, many other games later borrowed it, or possibly developed it independently (e.g. Oblivion/Skyrim, Mount & Blade, etc). But in "building" on it, Risen tries its hardest to completely ruin it. Instead of timed parry, they introduced the holding parry. Then they introduce a power attack that breaks the parry (ruining your own central mechanic), and of course if you had a timed parry as opposed to a held parry, power attack wouldn't even make sense. Then they introduce a counter-parry-parry at like level 8 or so of sword fighting, which counters the parry, essentially making it useless against higher level combatants. And of course, by making parrying slow in general and not sped up due to skill increase, and making enemies attack at super high speeds and unpredictably, you are also screwing with the whole parrying mechanic.

What I am guessing happened, is that most players didn't get Gothic combat. Even today, when I read some threads about Gothic, it seems like many people aren't aware of the parry/counterattack approach and instead talk about combos (useless against humanoids) and basic attacks and moving back/dodging. So for Risen, they probably tried to introduce simpler stuff that more people would use such as shields and held blocking and power attacks and all of that.

The combat system is not really bad, but again it's best early in the game (and then mostly against NPC), where fighting is still somewhat tactical.

Yeah, it's still better than a lot of RPGs, but it's no G1/2 combat.
 
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PorkyThePaladin

Have you ever played Gothic 2 with NOTR yet? If not stop w/e you're doing and play it now.

Ok, look, I know I posted some long walls of text in this thread and most people today, even codexers, can't be bothered to read anything beyond a twat twit length, but do a browser find on this page for "Gothic 2" or "G2". I literally mention it about 200 times. So your comment is pretty funny.
 

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