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Risen is predictable and far too similar to Gothic

sullynathan

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Is there a better weapon than Souldrinker in this game? I got it, but I don't know if I should just keep pumping LP into strength for no other reason that tinier damage increase.
 

ortucis

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You don't understand why people bitch about an action rpg where a large portion of the game is combat and the combat isn't good?
If you do quests, it leads to combat. Going outside to explore leads to combat. Chapter 3 is right now is dungeon crawling with lots and lots of combat. All of their games have lots of combat and it went from pretty bad to servicable at best once you've fully leveled up an ability.


Meh I never considered Gothic games to be action focused. They seem be more about exploration and surviving the powerful enemies, until you are good enough to come back with better gear and bash them on their heads. But you do all that as part of exploration, solving quests.. peddling weed.

Hell, you can talk your way out of combat with people and orcs. Not only that, you can just lure hard enemies to fight NPC's and get rid of a lot of people without every entering combat yourself.

Personally, never quite thought of Gothic games as "action" RPG. More like, RPG games with minor action elements. Action is part of this world, not the entire focus of it.
 

sullynathan

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Meh I never considered Gothic games to be action focused. They seem be more about exploration and surviving the powerful enemies, until you are good enough to come back with better gear and bash them on their heads. But you do all that as part of exploration, solving quests.. peddling weed.
They have always been action rpgs. It is impossible to ignore combat at all in these games. Even early on when you know what you're doing and try not to engage enemies, everything always boils down to lots and lots of fighting. Right now in Chapter 3, it's an entire dungeon crawl with lots of lizard. Chapter 4 just started and it's again more dungeon crawling with skeletons and lizards fighting.
It is just as much of a focus, I would even say even more of a focus than anything else in their games. Exploration happens far less in Chapter 3 & 4 because by this point you will already have teleporting stones and you will teleport to each cave for more fighting.
 

sullynathan

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I am at Chapter 4. I am uninterested in going through all the same locations I went through before but this time fighting through hordes of annoying lizard monsters.
 

ortucis

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Meh I never considered Gothic games to be action focused. They seem be more about exploration and surviving the powerful enemies, until you are good enough to come back with better gear and bash them on their heads. But you do all that as part of exploration, solving quests.. peddling weed.
They have always been action rpgs. It is impossible to ignore combat at all in these games. Even early on when you know what you're doing and try not to engage enemies, everything always boils down to lots and lots of fighting. Right now in Chapter 3, it's an entire dungeon crawl with lots of lizard. Chapter 4 just started and it's again more dungeon crawling with skeletons and lizards fighting.
It is just as much of a focus, I would even say even more of a focus than anything else in their games. Exploration happens far less in Chapter 3 & 4 because by this point you will already have teleporting stones and you will teleport to each cave for more fighting.

I'm not saying they aren't action RPG's, I'm just saying that I don't really consider them to be more action focused (like Fable or Amalur).

I dunno, I played Gothic games mostly luring creatures into fights with Orcs/humans, looting and talking my way out of things as much as possible, getting hold of better armor and weapons by lock-picking or looting dead bodies rather than buying shit.

Not saying combat is completely unavoidable, but combat in PB games always feels like an afterthought. I've always enjoyed exploring their handcrafted worlds over fighting things in their games. Risen 1, after initial few enemies, turns into you running around talking to people until you can get hold of better gear to actually fight something without dying. I played Risen by mostly running away from creatures and luring them into other people as well.

By the time the ending was there, I was mowing down everything so easily that it barely felt like a challenge. Just spammed sword attacks on lizards. Not much action other than me running around collecting lizard swords and shields at that point.

That said, I kinda enjoyed Risen 2's pirate theme and had a perfect "gun shot to kill and finish stragglers with sword" bit going on. Also that weird race of little trolls going "fuck yes" kept me amused. :lol:

Risen 3.. got bored and actually stopped playing nearing the end game. Never touched it again.
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Is there a better weapon than Souldrinker in this game? I got it, but I don't know if I should just keep pumping LP into strength for no other reason that tinier damage increase.
The Titan weapons are the best in the respective categories.
 

sullynathan

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Pretty much I can see the game is boiling down just like Gothic.
lots of dungeon crawling - check
collecting stuff to build uber weapon/armor - check
fighting a shit ton of orcs lizardmen, so many fucking lizardmen - check
one faction betrays the player - check
unknown evil being is awakened by the end - check



Is there a better weapon than Souldrinker in this game? I got it, but I don't know if I should just keep pumping LP into strength for no other reason that tinier damage increase.
The Titan weapons are the best in the respective categories.
yea, I got most of them now.
 

Hrymr

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Hell, you can talk your way out of combat with people and orcs. Not only that, you can just lure hard enemies to fight NPC's and get rid of a lot of people without every entering combat yourself.
I dunno, I played Gothic games mostly luring creatures into fights with Orcs/humans, looting and talking my way out of things as much as possible
It sounds like we were playing entirely different games.

Luring monsters into fights with NPCs means that you are risking the loss of precious experience points. Even if you are weak, fighting them normally is easier (and more fun) than trying to get the last hit.
 

ortucis

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Hell, you can talk your way out of combat with people and orcs. Not only that, you can just lure hard enemies to fight NPC's and get rid of a lot of people without every entering combat yourself.
I dunno, I played Gothic games mostly luring creatures into fights with Orcs/humans, looting and talking my way out of things as much as possible
It sounds like we were playing entirely different games.

Luring monsters into fights with NPCs means that you are risking the loss of precious experience points. Even if you are weak, fighting them normally is easier (and more fun) than trying to get the last hit.


In the beginning of all PB games, luring monsters into NPC's is a WAY better method of getting good gear (from dead NPC's usually). Leveling up is easier because of better gear, you will be killing those same monsters faster, even tackling higher difficulty monsters.

This has been my strategy in all PB games, even in ELEX. It never fails. By the time I am levelling up my skills and HP, I'm already carrying starter level gear and enough health/mana potions to last me winter.

This is why I enjoy PB games. They let me explore and run away, then exploit this simple mechanic to clear guards and gain gear. I think I'm starting to see why I never have complaints about combat in their games, it's usually my last option. :lol:
 

Hrymr

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In the beginning of all PB games, luring monsters into NPC's is a WAY better method of getting good gear (from dead NPC's usually). Leveling up is easier because of better gear, you will be killing those same monsters faster, even tackling higher difficulty monsters.
Good gear? Now I'm even more confused. Because of the stats requirements getting OP weapons early is of no use (in G2 you can get the best 2h weapon in the game in the first act, but you need 160 strength to equip it). And if you have needed stats, then beating the NPC shouldn't be a problem.

Also, it looks like after Gothic 1 PB has noticed that beating NPCs to get their weapons breaks balance pretty fast, so in the later games NPCs are mostly equipped with trash weapons and have their stats increased to balance it out.
 

ortucis

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In the beginning of all PB games, luring monsters into NPC's is a WAY better method of getting good gear (from dead NPC's usually). Leveling up is easier because of better gear, you will be killing those same monsters faster, even tackling higher difficulty monsters.
Good gear? Now I'm even more confused. Because of the stats requirements getting OP weapons early is of no use (in G2 you can get the best 2h weapon in the game in the first act, but you need 160 strength to equip it). And if you have needed stats, then beating the NPC shouldn't be a problem.

Also, it looks like after Gothic 1 PB has noticed that beating NPCs to get their weapons breaks balance pretty fast, so in the later games NPCs are mostly equipped with trash weapons and have their stats increased to balance it out.

In PB games, upgrading from one shit weapon to slightly less shit weapon, counts as good gear for me (along with rings/amulets you pick up) until strength requirements kick in. This isn't like Skyrim where we are spam crafting dragon armors afterall.

Not to mention, it's about saving gold for skills. You loot better armor sets and weapons from dead bodies >> sell it for gold, until you have a LOT of cash. Then you go around buying easiest skills you can unlock first. Then you go to combat skills later. Meanwhile, use scrolls you find looting/scavenging in combat to level up (did that a lot in Gothic games for my melee character, spamming scrolls and first tier bow skill, which is cheapest to learn).

Basically, it's like a proper survival experience (for me). You avoid combat, until you're ready for it all.

But I'm not playing any PB game as a action RPG, like I said before.
 
Last edited:

Hrymr

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Basically, it's like a proper survival experience (for me). You avoid combat, until you're ready for it all.

But I'm not playing any PB game as a action RPG, like I said before.
I understand that, I'm just saying that it's unnecessary. PB games are pretty straightforward and there is no "survival" part. You can fight mobs from the very beginning (there are even "young" versions of them specially created for that), then you level up a bit and you can fight normal mobs like wolves. Luring them into NPCs means losing exp, which only slows down process of getting STRONK.
 

ortucis

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Basically, it's like a proper survival experience (for me). You avoid combat, until you're ready for it all.

But I'm not playing any PB game as a action RPG, like I said before.
I understand that, I'm just saying that it's unnecessary. PB games are pretty straightforward and there is no "survival" part. You can fight mobs from the very beginning (there are even "young" versions of them specially created for that), then you level up a bit and you can fight normal mobs like wolves. Luring them into NPCs means losing exp, which only slows down process of getting STRONK.


Well personally, the older I grow, the less interested (and lazy) I've become in experiencing any form of combat. Seen that shit a thousand times, enjoyed it when it was new, now it feels like the simplest solution I have no interest in. Now I enjoy it more when I fuck around with AI and see fun things happens.

So unless it's a game like Original Sin and if it's a third person game, my choice will be to always explore the world, enjoy the stories and leave the fighting to the AI.

I think, in recent games, only ELEX is the one where I (as a Cleric) went around killing everything. Mostly cause my class was so OP, I found it easier and quicker to just end everything in sight (blackhole spam).
 

sullynathan

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Well that was a lame final boss. It's a gimmick boss that you can't harm unless you hold shield when he shoots slow ass missles and you deflect them back, then you can hit him once. Repeat this 6 times and the game abruptly fades to blacc into a cutscene with a hentai tentacle dragging the boss into hell and your Coolᵀᴹ profagonist walks away out of the cave.

Beat the game in 29 hours 8 minutes, it's ok enough. Better than Gothic and Gothic 3. All Pirahna bytes games so far have
some pretty shitty final bosses. Whether it's the seeker, the final boss cheese dragon with unlimited skeletons, or this thing in Risen.

Bit disappointed that the armor shown in the box art isn't in game.
 

SlamDunk

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Never played g1 or g2.
SandyFlamboyantDodo.gif
 

ortucis

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Well personally, the older I grow, the less interested (and lazy) I've become in experiencing any form of combat.
Damn, getting old sounds like hell. :negative:


On the contrary, you're focusing on how rest of the game is designed every time, not just the combat.

..

Actually, now that I think about it, considering how disappointing rest of the design is, in majority of the games.. it DOES sound like hell.

:negative:
 

Lord_Potato

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Well, PB games are designed around combat and exploration.

Story is cliched as hell (ok, with the exception of ELEX, which is creative in mixing different, theoretically incompatibile cliches), lore is almost nonexistant (they did not even bother to write 1-page long books in Risen, again ELEX is notable exception, you learn much more about the world and its history - and prehistory - in the course of the playthrough). With few exceptions characters are not really memorable. There is no character creation and you only have several working character builds.

So if you skip combat, you lose half of the fun.
 

sullynathan

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So what's the excuse of the shitty combat and relearning skills I'm gothic 2, 3 & Risen 2?

You're playing the exact same character from the first game, why doesn't he remember some of what he's done in the past?



I fucking loved it

Tried it and its combat is even worse. At least there's pirate stuff everywhere but I wasn't expecting the profagonist to be with the inquisition since I joined the bandits. The whole art style changed.

Has anyone played assassins creed black flags and compared it to this game?

It's swordplay is shit
 

Hrymr

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You're playing the exact same character from the first game, why doesn't he remember some of what he's done in the past?
Gothic 1 > Gothic 2 excuse is actually pretty well done. Main character spent months laying under ruins of the Sleeper's temple and survived only because of his op armor and Xardas teleporting him out. He is very weak, he lost all his items and he doesn't remember much. It all makes sense from the story perspective. And memory loss is a good way of introducing characters from G1 to players who haven't played it.
 

Lord_Potato

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Just finished Risen a few days ago (some spoilers coming in soon).

This year I've benn mostly playing action rpgs, most often than not made by Pirahna Bytes. Before Risen I finished Elex, which I greatly enjoyed, and Gothic2+NOTR, which was also a splendid game (I completed Gothic I in 2017). So I began playing Risen with reasonably high expectations.

Oh, how wrong was I.

The game is basically a copy of certain elements of Gothic 2 and NOTR, but without much of its charm. The Caribbean setting may look original at the beginning, but NOTR already had "pirate" and "tropical" themes. And ofcourse temples of ancient, long lost civilization. And bandit camp in the middle of the swamp (BTW, in NOTR the swamp was much more vast and atmospheric that the small pool of shit in Risen). Ofcourse, the Lizardmen also make a comeback, this time as the inhabitants of the ancient temples (last time they were servants of the dragons).

One thing they managed to actually improve is the combat, especially melee. I liked that I had more options than in Gothic 2 and that improving weapon proficiencies unlocked new options and more interesting combos. However my enjoyment from combat was diminished by the fact many enemies had ridiculous fast attacks that you could not really read and act upon (when they started the animation it was already too late to act).

Everything else is a not an evolution of a concept, but rather devolution. Magic has been simplified to just several spells, compared to the great variety in Gothics. The story is simply lame. Instead of orc invasion on the mainland we have titan invasion. In both cases there is no longer any sea travel, in order to keep you on the island. But at least Khorinis was much more vast, had more interesting places to explore and the quests to fulfill. Heck, the region from NOTR felt much bigger than the whole Risen island.

Harbor town was a much downsized version of Khorinis city (which was already quite small). Bandit camp was a copy of Raven's camp, only smaller and less cool. The monastery was a copy... of the monastery. It was actually quite bigger than the Gothic version and had some tiny interesting bits, like the lizardmen attack.

And the structure of the whole story... Chapters 1 and 2 were acceptable - lots of quests, different solutions, choices (mostly with no or minor consequences) and interaction with various NPCs. It was alright, if not brilliant. Then came the Chapter 3 with lost of dungeon crawling. Ok, it was somewhat bearable, but already tested my patience - the dungeons were vast and full of danger, which you could creativly neutralize (I mostly navigated larger groups of enemies to my allies and joined to massacre to get the xp).

But then Chapter 4. I learned I have to conquer 5 more dungeons to collect parts of yet another McGuffin. At that point it became almost unbearable and it was only up to my inner little completionist to force me to finish the game, since I already invested two dozen hours into it. The dungeons of Chapter 4 were repetitive (collect statues, open doors, avoid traps, kill lots of lizardmen, coming in 3 or 4 variants). At least they were small. Serioulsly, the only enjoyable part of Chapter 4 was when I cleared the western coast of the island with Patty - there was some npc interraction, funny dialogue and a bit of tactics involved (protect Patty/use here to lure the Lizardmen and attack their unprotected backs).

Ofcourse the final battle is the most silly thing ever. My guy against a powerful titan. But I had a magical armor and a magical hammer! (too bad I never specialized him in axes/hammers... at least it gave me +6 in weapon proficiency, the rest I got from some ring). And what the fuck did I achieve in the course of the game? Saved some tiny, insignificant, scarcely populated island by fucking everyone else in the world. The fire titan will not be used against other titans, who massacre the world population. The Inquisitor Mendoza at least tried to save everyone, my guy was satisfied by fucking everyone for his individual interest.

And why the hell I could not make a moral choice and support Mendoza? With his magical abilities and my shiny titan armor we could control the fire titan and unleash him on the unsuspecting asses of other monsters.

The ending was most anticlimatic and foolish. Gothic 2 already had a lame ending - after defeating 5 or 6 dragons the endboss being... another dragon, but this time undead! Plus, no plots significant throughout the story - the conflict between Mercs and Paladins, the fate of the besieged castle in the Valley of Mines etc. were not solved in any meaningful way. And yet, the ending of Risen managed to beat it in how weak it was. Nice job, game.

For now I am utterly fed up with PB crap. Serioulsly, I will need several months to regenerate. And I heard it was the best game in the series, Risen 2 and 3 being totally retarded. Ofcourse, I know they later redeemed themselves with ELEX and I have some hopes for the sequel. It's a good thing I played it before Risen, because after this shitty little game I would have no intention to go on and play their next products.
 

Master

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The game is basically a copy of certain elements of Gothic 2 and NOTR, but without much of its charm. The Caribbean setting may look original at the beginning, but NOTR already had "pirate" and "tropical" themes. And ofcourse temples of ancient, long lost civilization. And bandit camp in the middle of the swamp (BTW, in NOTR the swamp was much more vast and atmospheric that the small pool of shit in Risen). Ofcourse, the Lizardmen also make a comeback, this time as the inhabitants of the ancient temples (last time they were servants of the dragons).
I'd say it has its own thing. The main difference is in Gothic you have the "looming apocalypse thats just about to happen" feeling, while in Risen its already happened and the island may be one of the last remaining safe havens.
Harbor town was a much downsized version of Khorinis city (which was already quite small).
Huh? Khorinis wasn't small. It was huge, there was even an underground section.
shitty little game
:decline:
 

Lord_Potato

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I'd say it has its own thing. The main difference is in Gothic you have the "looming apocalypse thats just about to happen" feeling, while in Risen its already happened and the island may be one of the last remaining safe havens.

Well, I had similar feeling in NOTR and Risen. Even the random earthquakes were similar :)

Huh? Khorinis wasn't small. It was huge, there was even an underground section.

It was kind of small. It was composed the main street (short), the temple quarter (single square with the temple), marketplace (two squares with shopping stalls), the harbour and merchants quarter (two squares), plus the tiny fortress and mandatory sewer/thieves hideout level. Only the harbor was larger, had lots of shacks and the additional pier with the Paladin ship. To me it felt like some backwater settlement.

Now compare it to the vastness of City of Daggerfall, Vivec City, Wyzima, not to mention such giants as Tarant, Alkathla or Novigrad.



Agreed. Risen is a big decline, compared to the earlier works of PB.
 

Master

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You are really selling Khorinis short. Its the best realized 3d RPG city out of all those you mentioned. Wyzima is great sure, but its parceled out by loading zones. Can you climb the rooftops in Wyzima? Khorinis even has that degree of verticallity to it. Tarrant is also great but its 2d and it loads some areas separately. Also npcs are loaded on the fly while in Khorinis they are just there. And npcs are just plain more reactive than in other RPGs and all kind of shit can happen at random. I dont think in The Witcher you can even attack people.
Then there is the city's surrounding area like the abandoned lighthouse and the little island which you can consider a "part" of the city too, making it even bigger. Also the nearby forest with the Orc and the little turnip village give it a degree of realism.

Agreed. Risen is a big decline, compared to the earlier works of PB.
Its a natural continuation of Gothic and all the different aspects even if they are "worse" (smaller, easier, kinda streamlined) fit the laid back Caribbean setting. It isnt a prison colony anymore or convict overrun island or a war torn Myrtana. Its just some backwater peaceful little island so we cant hold it against them that Harbor Town isnt as great as Khorinis.
 

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