Decline Respeccing in RPGs

[GordonHalfman]

There is a trend in arpgs to treat a character build more like an equipment loadout, and this seems fine to me. I don't see why there is a point of principle here. Depending on the system configuring your build to solve a specific problem rather than a general one is potentially a lot more interesting. It's particularly appropriate for arpgs where different builds are mechanically very different and the build system is very linearised and restrictive, i.e. it's based around skill trees where your choices at low level can lock out certain abilities entirely. These kind of systems give you a lot of potential to gimp yourself and also tend to result in games where dicking about with your build is half the fun.

The others thing about arpgs is that the character building isn't really attempting to model a character archetype for roleplaying purposes in the same way that PnP systems usually are. A lot of people obviously enjoy games where your build defines your characters history, profession or personality and so on. Or even your characters personal philosophy in games like Arcanum with the magic/tech divide. In these games respec leaves a bad taste in the mouth at best. The criticism doesn't seem to apply to arpgs though since these games aren't really trying to do the same thing. In Aarklash your wizard archetype is just "Wizard who can cast very damaging lightning bolt" instead of "Wizard who can cast lightning bolt that bounces to five targets" and so on.

In practice more RP focused games avoid the respec problem by just having broader less restrictive build systems. I generally prefer this anyway, I don't really understand the assumption that having a ton of choices to make at every level up is always a good thing. The D&D Wizard class for example has only relatively unimportant build options since it has a guaranteed core competence with a lot of in built variety. Being able to cast every arcane spell in the game and configure your spell book each day for specific encounters is fun, and there isn't anything obviously "decline" about this. In fact it's probably fair to say the wizard is more popular than the sorceror which does have to commit to spell choices at level up.

 

[Bubbles]

each character has merely four skills

the best RTwP battles EVER

So they're better than Sword Coast Stratagems and Ascension for BG2, they're better than RAVage, Smarter AI and Faster Combat/Runspeed for DA:O?

Nothing is better than DA:O, except DA2.

 

[Cool name]

So they're better than Sword Coast Stratagems and Ascension for BG2, they're better than RAVage, Smarter AI and Faster Combat/Runspeed for DA:O?

Maybe. I am not fond of BG2 and DAO so I haven't tried mods for either, but from what I remember of them unless those mods go far beyond making enemies thougher and faster and more numerous, yes. I did like the combat in Aarklash more than the combat in, say, Icewind Dale, for example, because Aarklash makes full use of RTwP while Icewind Dale uses a TB system in an RTwP context.

It is not 11/10, game of the century every year, but it is good. Very good, at times. I rarely leave games installed after clearing them once, but I left Aarklash for whenever I have five minutes to waste and am feeling like having some fun with weird combinations of skills and characters, and involved RTwP battles.

So, like, give it a try. Just make sure to pick the hardest difficulty from the get go. The combat is the entire point of the game. I don't know if I would have enjoyed it as much if I had gone with less than that.

There's no LARPing required in a role playing games. In case you missed the myriad of times I've referenced it as a negative: I don't like LARPing, I like playing RPGs. But if your argument is that people telling me to LARP to enjoy the game are ruining everything, then yes, I agree.

I wasn't directing that at you. I don't even know who you are. But if the shoe fits, by all means, wear it.

The others thing about arpgs is that the character building isn't really attempting to model a character archetype for roleplaying purposes in the same way that PnP systems usually are. A lot of people obviously enjoy games where your build defines your characters history, profession or personality and so on. Or even your characters personal philosophy in games like Arcanum with the magic/tech divide.

Yet the difference between a wizard and another in Arcanum is one of 'kills stuffies with Harm' and 'kills stuffies inefficiently,' and one of 'studied summoning and wasted points on redudant spells' and 'studied dark necromancy and not only has harm but one kickass summoning spell which is more than enough.' That, and whether you have enough magic resonance to kill stuffies efficiently. Everything else exists only inside the mind of the player, and thus qualifies as LARPing - The game doesn't give two fucks whether I am a dark necromancer or a, uhm... Something else which is not half as efficient.

Only you are forced to keep the inefficient choice you were told to make blindly. And that instead of picking the spells you want when you have the points, you have to leave them sitting around so you can eventually save, purchase all the requisites for the spell you want, and then try it to see if it was worth five points. It isn't? Reload and invest elsewhere. Or you let your points rot until you come to a situation you can't easily deal with, save, acquire new spells, try them out, reload, acquire only the one which solves the problem and its requisites you are never going to use, solve the problem, and continue, probably never using the spell again. Ever. But at least it raised your resonance so now Harm kills shit faster and your undead pets are higher level.

Thankfully now we have Wikis. So I wait six months and then have all the information that should have been included in the manual to begin with, such as damage formulas and 'don't pick this shitty spell because every single endgame enemy is immune to it.' Then I decide whether to skip the crappy game or play a cool thematic build which is both viable and efficient.

In practice more RP focused games avoid the respec problem by just having broader less restrictive build systems. I generally prefer this anyway, I don't really understand the assumption that having a ton of choices to make at every level up is always a good thing. The D&D Wizard class for example has only relatively unimportant build options since it has a guaranteed core competence with a lot of in built variety. Being able to cast every arcane spell in the game and configure your spell book each day for specific encounters is fun, and there isn't anything obviously "decline" about this. In fact it's probably fair to say the wizard is more popular than the sorceror which does have to commit to spell choices at level up.

This.

The difference between the one, memorizing particular spells before entering a particular area or facing a particular boss, and the other, picking different skills at the respec NPC before doing one or the other, is merely one of immersion. Yet while much of the strategy, and the fun, of those games was to decide which spells to bring to a particular area or encounter to have a respec option is interpreted as removing strategic depth. Why? Because MAH IMMERSHUN.

 

[Raghar]

each character has merely four skills

the best RTwP battles EVER

So they're better than Sword Coast Stratagems and Ascension for BG2, they're better than RAVage, Smarter AI and Faster Combat/Runspeed for DA:O?

Nothing is better than DA:O, except DA2.

I thought awakening had that wizard with kitty. Which was awesome.

 

[Copper]

It's a bit of an obvious point, but most games also obviously allow for limited respec through gear choice, which nobody really has a problem with, except the people who want to stick lots of pre-reqs on gear - they really don't want any hint of a respec.

It's probably worth bringing up the Secret World - wasn't the whole idea behind its progression system unlocking new abilities to expand your portfolio, then picking the right ones for a mission? In other words, everyone functions like a D&D wizard (although I don't think your hand grew, only 6 abilities). Never played it, anyone have a comment on how sound it was?

In practice more RP focused games avoid the respec problem by just having broader less restrictive build systems. I generally prefer this anyway, I don't really understand the assumption that having a ton of choices to make at every level up is always a good thing. The D&D Wizard class for example has only relatively unimportant build options since it has a guaranteed core competence with a lot of in built variety. Being able to cast every arcane spell in the game and configure your spell book each day for specific encounters is fun, and there isn't anything obviously "decline" about this. In fact it's probably fair to say the wizard is more popular than the sorceror which does have to commit to spell choices at level up.

This.

The difference between the one, memorizing particular spells before entering a particular area or facing a particular boss, and the other, picking different skills at the respec NPC before doing one or the other, is merely one of immersion. Yet while much of the strategy, and the fun, of those games was to decide which spells to bring to a particular area or encounter to have a respec option is interpreted as removing strategic depth. Why? Because MAH IMMERSHUN.

This is quite a perceptive point, I think, from both of you. Wizards are the ultimate respec formula. So long as their Int is high, there's literally not that much else that's relevant to them other than the spells in their book. Unfortunately, systems like 4th ed turned away from wizards having lots of options in favour of giving everyone else 'some' options. it would have been interesting to go the other way - give out lots of martial powers, have some fluff explaining how 'extreme' these moves are and how they have to be practiced every day as part of the fighter /rogue's regime, have therm tied to training manuals and weapon masters so the DM can control access to them/use powerful moves as plot points, and away you go.

 

[Metro]

That is what we did in the old days, and it sucked.

And today with the proliferation of the internet, you can just look at a spoiler free 'guide' that will alert you to what classes/skills might be broken/worthless/poorly designed. I'm not saying you study some ultimate min/max layout but most of the time simply asking on forums will give you enough info going in. I don't consider that cheating or spoilers or whatever since you're simply avoiding bad mechanics.

 

[J1M]

Agassi, that Aarklash: Legacy game sounds like it would be amazing if it were turn based. What a shame.

 

[HiddenX]

Respeccing of a character = destroying the history of the character = anti-roleplaying

I never use this mechanic, it should be banned by all true CRPG fans.

Roleplaying (like other games) is only challenging and fun if there is a chance to fail. A game is only a game if you can lose.

If your party sucks, learn, make a new party, restart.

All mechanics that try to avoid failing in CRPGs introduced for casual players destroy the fun.

Respeccing
Auto-leveling
Auto-progression
Auto-healing
Handholding
...
-> CRPG poison.

 

[Night Goat]

I don't give a slightest fuck about make-believe "history of the character" bullshit, because there is only my computer and me, and neither of us cares.

 

[Severian Silk]

Respecs could be like Restore Points in Windows, except they become more expensive the farther you go back. :shrug:

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Roleplaying (like other games) is only challenging and fun if there is a chance to fail. A game is only a game if you can lose.

Problem - you can't* actually lose or fail at an RPG. If your shittily built character(s) get slapped silly by a monster, you simply reload and try again until you inevitably succeed even if by lucky rolls alone. It's a game where the owner of the ball cries "FOUL! DO-OVER!" whenever something doesn't go according to plan.

*unless it's permadeath I guess, and sometimes those allow you to whip up a new party and keep going anyway

 

[HiddenX]

Roleplaying (like other games) is only challenging and fun if there is a chance to fail. A game is only a game if you can lose.

Problem - you can't* actually lose or fail at an RPG. If your shittily built character(s) get slapped silly by a monster, you simply reload and try again until you inevitably succeed even if by lucky rolls alone. It's a game where the owner of the ball cries "FOUL! DO-OVER!" whenever something doesn't go according to plan.

*unless it's permadeath I guess, and sometimes those allow you to whip up a new party and keep going anyway

Because of this I love these oldschool mechanics:

a) saving only at the inn
b) saving is allowed everywhere, but costs xp
c) saving is only allowed when you leave the game

 

[Clockwork Knight]

That just makes the process take longer, though. "Victory" is still guaranteed as long as you're autistic determined enough.

therefore I postulate that role playing games are not real games because you can't lose

 

[baturinsky]

Winning and losing can be not binary.

 

[HiddenX]

There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't

****

Define "Winning" in a CRPG.

I would say:
Winning in a CRPG = Finish the main quest successfully.

You can fail this goal regardless how often you save-cheat if you develop your characters wrong.

 

[Telengard]

It's a bit of an obvious point, but most games also obviously allow for limited respec through gear choice, which nobody really has a problem with, except the people who want to stick lots of pre-reqs on gear - they really don't want any hint of a respec.

It's probably worth bringing up the Secret World - wasn't the whole idea behind its progression system unlocking new abilities to expand your portfolio, then picking the right ones for a mission? In other words, everyone functions like a D&D wizard (although I don't think your hand grew, only 6 abilities). Never played it, anyone have a comment on how sound it was?

In practice more RP focused games avoid the respec problem by just having broader less restrictive build systems. I generally prefer this anyway, I don't really understand the assumption that having a ton of choices to make at every level up is always a good thing. The D&D Wizard class for example has only relatively unimportant build options since it has a guaranteed core competence with a lot of in built variety. Being able to cast every arcane spell in the game and configure your spell book each day for specific encounters is fun, and there isn't anything obviously "decline" about this. In fact it's probably fair to say the wizard is more popular than the sorceror which does have to commit to spell choices at level up.

This.

The difference between the one, memorizing particular spells before entering a particular area or facing a particular boss, and the other, picking different skills at the respec NPC before doing one or the other, is merely one of immersion. Yet while much of the strategy, and the fun, of those games was to decide which spells to bring to a particular area or encounter to have a respec option is interpreted as removing strategic depth. Why? Because MAH IMMERSHUN.

This is quite a perceptive point, I think, from both of you. Wizards are the ultimate respec formula. So long as their Int is high, there's literally not that much else that's relevant to them other than the spells in their book. Unfortunately, systems like 4th ed turned away from wizards having lots of options in favour of giving everyone else 'some' options. it would have been interesting to go the other way - give out lots of martial powers, have some fluff explaining how 'extreme' these moves are and how they have to be practiced every day as part of the fighter /rogue's regime, have therm tied to training manuals and weapon masters so the DM can control access to them/use powerful moves as plot points, and away you go.

If everything is just equipment loadout, then nothing is permanent. If no choices you make are ever permanent, then there are no consequences. There is only power. That is your only real, constant attribute. Power Level. You are an amorphous, all-powerful blob, conforming to whatever will make you the most powerful at any given moment. Ie, you are Mr. Master Sergeant Spartan Warrior, the unstoppable FPS godlike being who does everything and anything perfectly - except talk to people, where he is dead wood.

Without permanency, there is no consequence to your actions. And without consequence, there is no challenge. There is only winning. Everybody wins, no matter what. Which means nobody wins. There are no winners and losers, there is only eventual success, with a pat on the head and a gold star for participation (you can find it in the Achievements section).

 

[baturinsky]

If no choices you make are ever permanent, then there are no consequences.

Choosing build that will make your fights (or other game activity) longer and duller will permanently rob hours of your life.

 

[Space Satan]

It's wrong to ask about respeccing in a general. Everything differs from game to game. Some games can tolerate casual repsec, while in others such mechanic will break the game completely. I can't see any respec in infinity-engine game. On the other hand I remember Ragnarok Online - where if you invest several points wrong and your entire build worth hundreds os hours of play is screwed. Or devs make a change and you are screwed so respec is needed. But that's MMORPG.
For SP RPG respec is bad for sure, the need to respec is a direct fault of developers' failure to clarify what characters need and the effectiveness of stat system. Should we have dump stats - respec is almost a neccesary for new players. If respec system is implemented then at least it should be extremely costly and not applied casually. In other words it should fix major flaws caued by unfamiliar system and lack of understanding of game mechanics, rather than "oh I want to try something new".
Dragon Age: origins is a bad example of respec.

 

[HiddenX]

I would allow some small changes through equipment or potions in SP games like the old "+1 STR -1 INT Ring" or "a gender switch potion" or "+10 permanent health potion" etc. But theses things should be rare and/or very expensive.

 

[Lilura]

I always thought the Mutate! and Tag! perks for Fallout 1/2 and Fallout: Tactics were novel.

 

[Cool name]

Because of this I love these oldschool mechanics:

a) saving only at the inn
b) saving is allowed everywhere, but costs xp
c) saving is only allowed when you leave the game

Not that long ago I played my way through all the early Resident Evil games. The ones in which you can only save when you come across a typewriter, and in which you have a limited number of ink thingies in the whole game? Those. The result is merely that when to save becomes part of the strategy. You reach a new area and save. Then you run around the whole area spamming heal items and shooting everything to death until you know where every enemy is, how to efficiently clear each room, which is the current objective, which rooms have which items, and what happens when the current objective is completed. Reload. Now you evade every enemy which can be safely evaded or in a room you will only need to go through once, kill every zombie with your knife if possible while using your guns against special enemies or masses of zombies in a room you have to go through a lot, minimize healing item usage, and efficiently loot the level and take everything back to your box. Right before the boss battle, go back and save. Now you repeat the boss battle until you defeat it without missing a single shot nor needing a single healing item. Save. Repeat in the next area. And the next. And the one after that. Wonder why you finish with so much ammo and healing items you no longer know where to put them. By the end of my first Zero playthrough I had so much shit I had capped the item limit on a room or three.

In case you were wondering out of Rebecca, Billy, Jill, Chris, Leon, and Claire not a single one is said to have the ability to perfectly predict the future when taking a nap next to a typewriter after inhalating ink fumes.

MUH CHARACTER HISTORY! MUH IMMERSHUN! MUH FINAL CONSEQUENCES!

Leon and Billy, however, have the special ability of being almost absurdly hot, but that's neither here nor there unless you are an ero doujin game developer looking for ideas for your next project. If so, make a Billy and Becca game. Really. Every time I play that one the sexual tension is just suffocating. You just want the two of them to find a quiet room somewhere and get over it already. While you watch. And tape it. And jump in.

Anyways, and those are player skill based games in which to become efficient I need to git gud, and every new area requires me gittin gudder to pull it off. Role playing games? LOL. I have played quite a few RPGs and JRPGs with the same, or a similar, system. The only difference is I don't even need to git gud to do it. I just need to maximise efficiency. Instead of, you know, exploring the character system and combat system you spent a few years developing?

Take SMT for example. You can pretty much respec your entire party in a moment's notice through the fusion system and the recruitment system. You can even go to your compendium and pay to have some of the demons you fused and leveled in a previous playthrough join you. The only character you can't just switch for another or turn into another at will is your main character, who is merely a collection of six stats and a few equipment slots. And it doesn't matter if you screw it up, because at the end you can compensate for a mistake by respeccing your entire party. Some of the games even allow you to completely respec his skills as well.

Now go and play them blind. You will be completely switching your party around all the time just to have a chance. You WILL need to understand the fusion system and the combat mechanics, because without that you will get nowhere no matter how hard you respec. You will be switching a few dudes every new dungeon just so that you can be sure that particular enemy who can spam party wide save or die skills does not attack you because a friend of his is in your roster. And even then the games will kick your tail all over the place like there's no tomorrow.

So drop the shitty 'respeccing ish 4 casul scum' act. This faux purism isn't hardcore. MUH CHOICES! MUH HISTORY! MUH IDENTITY! How about muh fucking combat system which requires understanding of all the options available and to know when to use this or that? Because at the end of the day your characters are not Sir Scrub The Most Righteous Paladin Of The Church Of LARP and company but six spreadsheets chained at the ankles. They are merely a collection of numbers and skills, and making it so you can only use a fraction of those skills in a given playthrough only means most of them are merely redundant. MUH DEEPNESS!

Agassi, that Aarklash: Legacy game sounds like it would be amazing if it were turn based. What a shame.

Actually, it is the only RTwP game I have played which didn't make me think it would be far better as a TB game. The entire system, both the good and the bad, is built entirely around RTwP. It would be impossible to translate to TB, I believe, as for example spell projectiles have to actually hit the target, and if the character moves out of the way the projectile will continue traveling until it disipates or hits someone else, friend or foe. Some healing spells will do the same, so if you manage to intercept one, or an enemy gets in the way, it will heal them instead of the target. Much of the difficulty comes from keeping track of everything which is happening at the same time, to the point you can see icons of what skill an enemy is preparing to use, how long until it is cast, and read the complete description of the skill, and it is extremely micromanagy.

 

[abnaxus]

Actually, it is the only RTwP game I have played which didn't make me think it would be far better as a TB game. The entire system, both the good and the bad, is built entirely around RTwP. It would be impossible to translate to TB, I believe, as for example spell projectiles have to actually hit the target, and if the character moves out of the way the projectile will continue traveling until it disipates or hits someone else, friend or foe. Some healing spells will do the same, so if you manage to intercept one, or an enemy gets in the way, it will heal them instead of the target. Much of the difficulty comes from keeping track of everything which is happening at the same time, to the point you can see icons of what skill an enemy is preparing to use, how long until it is cast, and read the complete description of the skill, and it is extremely micromanagy.

IIRC when I played that chick mage could spam an AoE Silence spell forever (cooldown < duration) which trivialized almost all battles. Especially with that other undead mage around.

 

[J1M]

I don't give a slightest fuck about make-believe "history of the character" bullshit, because there is only my computer and me, and neither of us cares.

Your paladin might.

 

[J1M]

Winning and losing can be not binary.

Are you a transwinner?

 

[J1M]

Agassi, that Aarklash: Legacy game sounds like it would be amazing if it were turn based. What a shame.

Actually, it is the only RTwP game I have played which didn't make me think it would be far better as a TB game. The entire system, both the good and the bad, is built entirely around RTwP. It would be impossible to translate to TB, I believe, as for example spell projectiles have to actually hit the target, and if the character moves out of the way the projectile will continue traveling until it disipates or hits someone else, friend or foe. Some healing spells will do the same, so if you manage to intercept one, or an enemy gets in the way, it will heal them instead of the target. Much of the difficulty comes from keeping track of everything which is happening at the same time, to the point you can see icons of what skill an enemy is preparing to use, how long until it is cast, and read the complete description of the skill, and it is extremely micromanagy.

And you dont feel that the ability to pause every second trivialized that gameplay experience compared to something like Warcraft III?