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Decline Respeccing in RPGs

felipepepe

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Respeccing only has a place in an environment with mandatory updates that include balance changes (EG: MMOs). Respecs are for when you've spent ages making a sensible (and maybe even competitive build) and some asshat developer decides to nerf all your skills because Alliance Paladins don't feel special enough.
^This.
 

V_K

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I think respeccing makes sense in systems with hard level/xp cap.
But then again, removing the cap is the better solution.
 

MicoSelva

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I do not like respecing as a mechanic, and it should not be allowed in traditional games. If you play a certain type of character, then play that type of character, FFS. Also known as role-playing.

But I can see why it is viable in some type of games, like MMOs or Diablo-likes, which have potentially unlimited playtime (I guess something like Skyrim also qualifies). People should not be forced to start over to enjoy other aspects of the game, especially if early content is less interesting than what they have already reached.

EDIT: game balance changes matter too, I agree.
 
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My take on it relates to my semi recent playthrough of D:OS, I enjoyed the game, even if I agreed with a lot of the criticism. My goal near the end was to finish the game in order to have fun replaying it with a different build, since points were relatively sparse in the game(Just how I like it.), it felt like I could have a drastically different experience playing through another time. Finding the respec option completely killed that desire for me, it was pretty much all-encompassing, and topped off with the appearance editor? It felt akin to choosing your head and loadout in Borderlands as opposed to taking a unique character through the world. Why bother trying to build a new and interesting character when I could just do it right now? my choices in creation, and in leveling, were pretty much worthless. Sure I could just ignore it, but that kind of logic is a slippery slope when it comes to RPGs, I like RPGs specifically because I don't have to LARP that I'm playing a certain character/role. I know there's a line of thought that says: "Don't like it don't use it, y u try to dictate how I play me game cause u hav no self control?" But in my eyes, limitation is a part of RPGs, doesn't sound too glamorous, but it's all quite glorious I assure you.

It does look like a self-control issue, though. Do games with an easily accessible console bother you, too? You were having so much fun that before finishing the game you were already thinking of playing it all over again, until you noticed the optional thing that was so out of the way that you didn't even realize it was there until the last minute. This makes me think of an young adult not being as interested in porn just because now he can view it anytime he wants and not just when the parents are at work. Are you having fun with the titties or the fact you're only allowed to look at the titties while you are alone?

btw the choices were not worthless because they had an effect on the game, changing your mind about something when you're an old man doesn't make your life meaningless in retrospect.

edit: hey, the fact there is respeccing means characters are diverse enough for it to matter. Making classes meld together and allowing one character to be simultaneously good at everything is where decline is at. Speaking of that, funny thing - Skyrim introduced respeccing in its latest expansion, and it predictably makes practically no difference to gameplay.
 
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baturinsky

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Depends on game length and availability of other build limitations, such as classes. I don't want to spend days going through low levels again with slightly different char to try different high-level build of Siren or Amazon. And if I want to play low-levels again with different experience, using completely different class does it better.
 

Raghar

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RPGs are about simulation. When you are training, do you get an instant ability just because you hit your head and forget something?
 
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This is the crux of Sawyer's argument regarding balance. If you see anyone claiming he's all about "ultimate balance" and "everything must be equal", it is their interpretation. Not his words. In fact he himself often uses examples of two things that aren't equally good in his system design but argues that the important thing is that both are at least useful. He's recognized many times that even with ad infinitum system iteration the concept of "perfect balance" is probably impossible.

Anyone who makes charisma do combat damage has gone way off the reservation.
 

Cool name

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Show me a game which has in depth comprehensive documentation, no significant bugs when it comes to skills and mechanics, no stupid design elements such as making certain skills arbitrarily useless in a particular situation by designer's fiat instead of well established game mechanics or world building, and no obligatory rebalance patches, and I will accept that game has no need for respecs.

Every other game should receive a patch with a respec option which plays a looping HD video of the developers bowing to the floor, asking forgiveness in a particularly self demeaning manner, and then commiting a particularly painful and gory variety of ritual suicide while I rebuild my character.
 
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My take on it relates to my semi recent playthrough of D:OS, I enjoyed the game, even if I agreed with a lot of the criticism. My goal near the end was to finish the game in order to have fun replaying it with a different build, since points were relatively sparse in the game(Just how I like it.), it felt like I could have a drastically different experience playing through another time. Finding the respec option completely killed that desire for me, it was pretty much all-encompassing, and topped off with the appearance editor? It felt akin to choosing your head and loadout in Borderlands as opposed to taking a unique character through the world. Why bother trying to build a new and interesting character when I could just do it right now? my choices in creation, and in leveling, were pretty much worthless. Sure I could just ignore it, but that kind of logic is a slippery slope when it comes to RPGs, I like RPGs specifically because I don't have to LARP that I'm playing a certain character/role. I know there's a line of thought that says: "Don't like it don't use it, y u try to dictate how I play me game cause u hav no self control?" But in my eyes, limitation is a part of RPGs, doesn't sound too glamorous, but it's all quite glorious I assure you.

It does look like a self-control issue, though. Do games with an easily accessible console bother you, too? You were having so much fun that before finishing the game you were already thinking of playing it all over again, until you noticed the optional thing that was so out of the way that you didn't even realized it was there until the last minute. This makes me think of an young adult not being as interested in porn just because now he can view it anytime he wants and not just when the parents are at work. Are you having fun with the titties or the fact you're only allowed to look at the titties while you are alone?

btw the choices were not worthless because they had an effect on the game, changing your mind about something when you're an old man doesn't make your life meaningless in retrospect.

edit: hey, the fact there is respeccing means characters are diverse enough for it to matter. Making classes meld together and allowing one character to be simultaneously good at everything is where decline is at. Funny thing is that Skyrim introduced respeccing in its latest espansion, and it predictably makes practically no difference to gameplay.
Shit argument, consoles aren't a game mechanic, how about if the console was represented as an in game choice? Had a fee, was part of the sanctuary for wardens or whatever you're called in D:OS. Is that okay because I can choose to simply avoid it so I don't wreck the game? I could choose to play Borderlands 2 and give myself a cowboy hat and only ever use revolvers, and pretend there's no respeccing but it's hardly what I'd call roleplaying . "So out of the way" Have you played the game? It's not even remotely out of the way, I played the game without realizing I had the option for a while, and even then it wasn't that late when I found it, which ironically is probably the only thing that kept the encounters as fresh and challenging as they were, since having no access to these things left me pretty much nerfed the whole way through. It's not out of the way, everyone will eventually encounter it, and it isn't a difficult point to get to.
(Literally a matter of, I didn't activate all my bloodstones because I thought they might be useful for something else.)

As for me thinking about replaying before I was done, that was a matter of me attempting to rush the game because I was so disengaged with anything besides combat, I was hoping my experience would feel better without the guesswork. The combat was fun, and so is building a new character, in fact, I do this in every game, the main difference is that I rarely feel that the rest of the game is in the way of my enjoyment.

Well, firstly, you aren't an old man when you find the respec option, even I wasn't THAT far and I played this game in the most butchered and ignorant way possible. So what you mean to say is, turning yourself into a complete different person when you're middle aged doesn't make all your previous choices meaningless. In which case I disagree, you could live an awful lifestyle and make horrible choices, wouldn't mean shit, you could just magically transform into a better person once you reached a certain point.

Nah, being able to revert the consequences of your build choices with a button press is where decline is at, thus the prefix on the title of this thread.
 
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Shit argument, consoles aren't a game mechanic, how about if the console was represented as an in game choice? Had a fee, was part of the sanctuary for wardens or whatever you're called in D:OS. Is that okay because I can choose to simply avoid it so I don't wreck the game?

Yes? It's part of the game, you aren't wrecking anything. (except maybe your gaymer pride). The console is just as easily accessible, I don't get how that doesn't bother you in the slightest but the NPC serving the same function makes you leave in disgust. You think the game is being condescending when it offers you the option, or something?

It's not even remotely out of the way, I played the game without realizing I had the option for a while, and even then it wasn't that late when I found it

u said:
My goal near the end was to finish the game in order to have fun replaying it with a different build, since points were relatively sparse in the game(Just how I like it.), it felt like I could have a drastically different experience playing through another time. Finding the respec option completely killed that desire for me

Unless by "near the end" you meant "second half".

Nah, being able to revert the consequences of your build choices with a button press is where decline is at, thus the prefix on the title of this thread.

What "consequences"? It's a single player RPG, the worst thing that can happen is a reload.
 
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No, it's not part of the fucking game, if it was part of the game then it wouldn't disable achievements.
game
ɡām/
noun

  • 1. a form of play or sport, played according to rules - the console is playing outside of the game's rules, respeccing isn't. It's as much a game mechanic as editing your saves in Wasteland 2.

Unless by "near the end" you meant "second half".
Near the end of me playing the game, I didn't finish it. Not that it matters, since my point stands, the respec is not out of the way, I had access to it(and then some) all along, I just didn't know because I 1.spammed my way through the sanctuary dialogue. Actually the first time I've ever done that in any game, go figure.
What "consequences"?
The game is affected by the role you choose to play, you have limits, strengths, weaknesses, in combat and out. These are consequences of the choices you made in character creation and levelling. More impactful if the game has non-combat skills, as D:OS does. The consequences aren't limited to winning and not winning, which is a really shitty way to look at an RPG.
These things may not be real to you, but they're real to me damn it.
 
Self-Ejected

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Show me a game which has in depth comprehensive documentation, no significant bugs when it comes to skills and mechanics, no stupid design elements such as making certain skills arbitrarily useless in a particular situation by designer's fiat instead of well established game mechanics or world building, and no obligatory rebalance patches.

Pillars of Eternity.
 

J1M

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Character building is fun. Like most activities, it becomes more enjoyable once you have some understanding of how the system works. It is also important to understand the environment that your character will be participating in.

As a player, I'm certainly not going to have much fun if I build a mage-slayer in a fantasy world populated by 6 wizards. I also shouldn't have to start a game over to compensate for traps and deficiencies in a game's programming or design.

Those two reasons are good enough for why respec needs to exist, but the most important reason why it *should* exist is this: it provides a safety net. Knowing that if things go poorly with my experimental party of 4 bards and 2 rangers, I can flip back to a boring standard party encourages exploration of the game system and creative character building.
 
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Night Goat

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As long as a game has trap options, it needs to have respecs. It would be better if the game didn't have trap options, but they almost always do. If it doesn't have respecs, you need to read a Gamefaq before building your character so you don't invest in something that looks useful but isn't; I'd rather start playing immediately and be able to fix it later if it turns out that, say, crafting is just in the game to check a box on a feature list and is actually pretty useless (looking at you, D:OS).
 
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Character building is fun. Like most activities, it becomes more enjoyable once you have some understanding of how the system works. It is also important to understand the environment that your character will be participating in.

As a player, I'm certainly not going to have much fun if I build a mage-slayer in a fantasy world populated by 6 wizards. I also shouldn't have to start a game over to compensate for traps and deficiencies in a game's programming or design.

Those two reasons are good enough for why respec needs to exist, but the most important reason why it *should* exist is this: it provides a safety net. Knowing that if things go poorly with my experimental party of 4 bards and 2 rangers, I can flip back to a boring standard party encourages exploration of the game system and creative character building.
You know what we did in the old days? Created a test party, played a few hours into the game, restarted if we weren't satisfied. Shocking I know.
 
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As long as a game has trap options, it needs to have respecs. It would be better if the game didn't have trap options, but they almost always do. If it doesn't have respecs, you need to read a Gamefaq before building your character so you don't invest in something that looks useful but isn't; I'd rather start playing immediately and be able to fix it later if it turns out that, say, crafting is just in the game to check a box on a feature list and is actually pretty useless (looking at you, D:OS).

What the fuck am I reading. There's only a handful of RPGsthat reuqire explicit metaknowlege to create a party that can beat the game. All of them are 20+ year old. Ironically none of them had a "respec" option, while the only games that do have them are those of the modern "its so easy even a gorilla could succesfuly play it" variety.
 

Invictus

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I dont know, some of my favorite experience in old school RPGS is trying different builds; the idea is that games like Wizardry, Última and M&M would run their course in pretty much the same way storywise but having different party compositions or different spec main character would affect mostly combat. This encouraged restarting the game and trying different builds but honestly I dont have the time anymore for that...
I know that Oblivion is a 4 Letter Word here in the Codex but the way that game handdled its tutorial was pretty good for trying things right from the get go, you had some variety for staring equipment you got to try it and decided how to go along from there. You later got a chance before leaving the sewers to decide how which skills to pick...things kind of went downstream from there but that is another story.
I recently modified a gamesave from Wasteland 2 to try switching the weapon skill of one of my Rangers and felt that the rest of my team was pretty well balanced, so the switch was no big deal and it didnt diminish my enjoyment of the game in the least. That kind of respeccing is ok by me and tweaking my char like that doesnt feel that much like cheating, but going from a melee fighter to a magic user with the flip of a switch is feels like cheating and should merrit a restart
 

Night Goat

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Why would anyone want to waste hours playing through a part of the game you already did just a few days ago?

GrognardsGonnaGrog_zps559fe40c.gif
 

MrMarbles

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Why would anyone want to waste hours playing through a part of the game you already did just a few days ago?

Because it's better than the alternative. What is the point of thinking about and executing builds if you can just change your mind later? It's like having sex with a condom - there's no sense of finality.
 

J_C

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I have never EVER respecced in a singleplayer RPG ( I rarely play MMOs), and I will never do. Because that would mean that I suck at the game. I never stuck in the game because of a bad character build. I built shitty characters, sure, but I overcame its weakness and finished the game with them. Very rarely I restart a game after character generation, but it is just because I realize that I want to play a different type of character.

So, if you need to respec to finish a game, you suck at RPGs (exception is if you want to respec bacause you want to try something new).
 

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