Research Help: Non-american otaku in the 80/90's.

[Giauz Ragnacock]

Ban Giauz Ragnacock

Honestly, my issue is not as much with the Naruto, Bleach & One Piece power trio as with the rest of all the industry just trying to copy & sell that model. While before we had many succesfull animes, from all genres and art styles, seems now we get shonen clichê as omnipresent gods, and the few unique stuff is so far away that few people will ever know about it...

I agree about the homoginization to these idyllic young hero stories being overall a bad thing. If something like the epic of Akira could be produced again I would love more of that (I spent three days pouring over its 2000 some pages only leaving the reading for quick bathroom breaks). Also, 'Osamu Tezuka's Metropolis' by Madhouse is free to watch on YouTube and is an absolutely beautiful example of some of the stories anime can tell.

 

[SCO]

So this is what it has come to

 

[Gerrard]

PUTAQUEOPARIU!

Bros, check this out, I finally found it, the missing link. Mr. Toshio Okada, ex-president of Gainax, released a japan-only book in 2008, titled "Otaku, you're already dead", reviewed here.

He portrays the rise and fall of Japan's otaku in three stages. The first generation are called "otaku aristocrats" -- early adopters from the late Seventies and early Eighties who felt the need to proselytize and convert their friends to the lifestyle. This sense of noblesse oblige eventually gave rise to the second generation of "otaku elite" from the late Eighties through the late Nineties, who spurned and scorned anyone without the good sense to share their taste in entertainment. And finally, this self-centered attitude reached its apex in the current generation of "moé-otaku," purveyors and consumers of anime, comics, and video games that feature infantile female characters instead of plotlines.

Okada takes the current generation of otaku to task for continuing to "ghettoize" themselves, retreating ever-deeper into individual virtual worlds when they encounter any sort of resistance to their interests. Where's the sense of pride, of camraderie? he wonders. He decries their inward focus, their passivity, their apparent lack of desire to learn about or interact with subcultures outside of their own tiny worldviews. (The last is a hallmark difference, at least in Okada's idealized view, between the moe-otaku and traditional old-school otaku, who actually forced themselves to partake of genres or titles they didn't particularly like in order to broaden their horizons.)

I now have a inside-man that shares the same point of view that me, to the point were I can expand his views to the global audience, regarding the aceptance of "ghetto otaku" products. Oh man, how I wish I already knew enough moonrunes to read his book...

Sounds to me like he's just "BACK IN MY DAYS" stroking his own dick.
Hardcore anime for hardcore otaku such as myself!

 

[felipepepe]

Sounds to me like he's just "BACK IN MY DAYS" stroking his own dick.
Hardcore anime for hardcore otaku such as myself!

He obviously is, and more than that, he lost the interest in what he was so hardcore about, precisely because he is an early adopter in a market that has reached its maturity and will soon face decline. It's the eternal life product cycle, and it seems that not even all the emperor's horses and all the emperor's marketing team will be able to mend it together; they failed to consolidate it widely, and instead are turning it into a niche thing, a ghetto thing, as Mr. Okada says, that no longer appeals to those that came before.

What's important to me is not his exact quotes, but what they point to, how they are early signs of trouble in a industry that's too impressed with itself to realize it. Past history shows that they are at the last high point, the next 5-10 years should see something new appearing in the global scenario (perhaps manhwa?) and throwing japanese otakus culture into obscurity, just like Grunge did with Hair/Glam Metal in the early 90's.

This is a amusing chance to see how a massive, modern global cultural industry handles it's decline, it's marketing history in the making. :D

So this is what it has come to

SCO's comments on this non-prestigious sub-forum are always most insightfull.

 

[Gerrard]

The problem with the perceived decline of anime I often see is, people act like in the 80s and 90s there were no shitty anime series being made, everything was a masterpiece and a cult classic (and in some cases even said classics aren't even very good in the first place). And the reason behind that is most often them not being alive during that time. I'm pretty sure in 10 years nobody will remember the generic fanservice anime #23876 that aired this summer either.

Although with the appearance in recent years of TV series that are blatant softcore porn (shit like Qwaser) we're definitely going downhill, it's nowhere near as bad as self-proclaimed oldfags want people to believe.

Anime will not die anytime soon, unless you already consider it dead. But in that case, it was never alive to begin with.

 

[felipepepe]

Using quality as a standard for analysis on a cultural product is absurd, trying to scientifically debate if Saint Seiya is better than Naruto is personal, subjective and pointless. I do it as a marketing graduate that lost his soul to Kotler years ago, I only see THE MARKET. And THE MARKET gods are displeased with otakus.

Not only Dragon Ball Z and Yu Yu Hakusho were on Tv, but stuff like Sailor Moon or Magic Knights of Rayearth went on air on open Tv in the 90's and regular people watched it, you didn't have to be an otaku or anything. Now even watching the most popular things like Naruto or Bleach stains you as a otaku, created prejudice & rejection. It failed to become a thing on it's own, the most cliche aspects of the culture overcame it and became the culture itself. No one cares if you say you only watch Seinen stuff and hate ecchi, they don't even know what that is, they only see you watching anime and relate that to retarded hairs, moes and panty shots. Fans may be happy with all their sub-genres and never seen before number of otaku products, but the outside world is tired of all that; THE MARKET doesn't accept it anymore. It's devolving into a niche, a bloody ghetto, alien and hostlie to the outside world.

And once Bleach, Naruto and One Piece fade away, THE MARKET will find something else to replace it; the show must go on, there are toys to be sold to kids and reprising Squarepants Bob is getting tiresome.

 

[Gerrard]

Not only Dragon Ball Z and Yu Yu Hakusho were on Tv, but stuff like Sailor Moon or Magic Knights of Rayearth went on air on open Tv in the 90's and regular people watched it

I don't know any "regular people" who watched any of those shows, and have a hard time imagining any doing so. Much like I can imagine "regular people" watching The Simpsons, but not some new shitty Cartoon Network show.
"Regular people" watch stuff like Doraemon or Shin-chan, which you could consider fairly detached from typical western definition of today's (and yesterday's too) anime. Out of the "Big 3" only One Piece is still seen in the TV rankings.

Once Bleach, Naruto and One Piece fade away they will be replaced by some other shitty, neverending series.

 

[felipepepe]

Not only Dragon Ball Z and Yu Yu Hakusho were on Tv, but stuff like Sailor Moon or Magic Knights of Rayearth went on air on open Tv in the 90's and regular people watched it

I don't know any "regular people" who watched any of those shows, and have a hard time imagining any doing so. Much like I can imagine "regular people" watching The Simpsons, but not some new shitty Cartoon Network show.

Sailor Moon was aired here together with Saint Seiya & Dragon Ball on open tv and got a MASSIVE fanbase. It aired for years, and in 2009 there was a succesfull fan petition to put it back on tv, and not only they aired it again, but it's STILL being aired.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

@felipepe I thought I'd provide you with another parallel with mainstream comics, this time of the mainstream fans completely missing the point the creator tried to make and promptly getting a "get the fuck away from me, freaks" reaction from said creator.

I briefly have to break my promise to lay this out, but the two things in question are perhaps the closest parallel to each other, both representing the artistic apex of their own field, dealing with similar ideals and having similar creator thoughts behind them. So, it's a brief visit back to Evangelion, before getting to the meat of it, being the parallel with Watchmen, it's companion in nihilistic deconstruction. The parallel this time is with the whole ZOMGTEHREI phenomenon, meaning the fanbase obsession with Rei, particularly romantic obsession, and how Anno proceeded to essentially comment that are the perverts going to love dolls resembling their mother's and devoid of character, or a real human being (naturally referring to Asuka here in the Shinji context).

The parallel here is with Alan Moore's character, Rorschach. Anyone who's read the comic knows that the character is a delusional psychotic who lives in a childlike world of black and white morality viewed through his distorted mindscape. Needless to say, when faced with an outsider completely alienated with humanity (due to having a rough life right from childhood), but possessing uncompromising mindset and violent exploits against grimy underworld in defiance of The Man while wearing a cool mask and costume (a very romantic subject for the audience no doubt); nerds fell in love with the character and thought he was a positive hero figure instead of a very dangerous and very disturbed person.

This in turn leads us to a very similar, but more specific reaction of the creator being confronted with the inanity of the mainstream fan. Alan Moore once, during the period when he still went to conventions, encountered a fan who went to tell him how impressed he was with Watchmen and how he totally identified with Rorschach. Alan Moore, to quote, told him "alright, stay the fuck away from me." It was one of the many reasons why Alan Moore refuses to go to conventions these days, and didn't openly interact with fans until his recent online live public interview/questionnaire/presentation.


It's a very interesting insight into the mind of the fanboy, and can certaintly serve as an example of the same shit happening elsewhere in your work.

 

[damicore]

This in turn leads us to a very similar, but more specific reaction of the creator being confronted with the inanity of the mainstream fan. Alan Moore once, during the period when he still went to conventions, encountered a fan who went to tell him how impressed he was with Watchmen and how he totally identified with Rorschach. Alan Moore, to quote, told him "alright, stay the fuck away from me." It was one of the many reasons why Alan Moore refuses to go to conventions these days, and didn't openly interact with fans until his recent online live public interview/questionnaire/presentation.


It's a very interesting insight into the mind of the fanboy, and can certaintly serve as an example of the same shit happening elsewhere in your work.

Is this really an insight of the mind of the fanboy or is it about may be the writer not being able to carry their message in the right way? I have never heard of this character but I've always never read watchmen (Although I've been meaning to do so for quite a long time) so I don't really know.

I for one know that I hate Evangelion's fanbase, that's for sure though. And I know they're mostly retards but Eva is partly to blame on that one because of the fanservice. Even if it was not much, it was there.

I think on these issues there is a communication problem from both sides.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Nope, it's definately a problem on the part of the fanbase. If you feel personal connection to a man who graphically murders people and inflicts serious injuries regularly, not to mention is so insane his speech patterns are fucked up (Rorschach drops every word he finds "unnecessary" when he writes or talks). Hell, he even reads /gd/ quality right-wing extremist newspaper! It's like I said, nerds just get romantic when someone tells stuff like "never compromise" or "because there is good and there is evil, and evil must be punished" and then horribly beats up criminals.

Of course, it's a bit more complex than that, but the character was never meant to be someone you'd consider for idolizing or identifying with when you're a fairly normal person.

 

[felipepepe]

It's an old dillema, Coppola is probably still pissed at how the only thing people remenber from Apocalypse Now is that was a AWESHUM war movie with that AWESHUM ride of the valkyries scene. And he was waaaay less subtle than Eva or Watchmen are, but people never care for the darkness inside mens heart, only for how bloody cool was that helicopter scene.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Yep, that's generally how things turn out for artists of all sorts.

 

[Haba]

Bros, help me with some info for my research:

​

It's very hard to find much info on 80's & early 90's anime/manga/jrpg consumption around the world; I've got Brazil's info and read some usefull books on USA's otaku habits, and that alone already started many doubts...​

​

http://translate.google.com/transla...roon__miten_anime_hivuttautui_suomeen/6291473

TL;DR

Artsy indie movie festivals -> obscure VHS releases -> some big screen releases for blockbuster movies ... -> weaboos emerge
<== VHS fansubs ===============================================> <== Internet fansubs==>

Anime was extremely obscure well into 2000, where Internet then finally enabled widespread distribution. Around those parts we did see some anime on TV, but majority of the viewers didn't realize that it was Japanese, or that it could be called "anime". So brainwashing with dubbed children's cartoons enabled full blown animefaggotry at older age. Probably has to do with cultural similarity as well - several areas such as concept of "losing face" and clear distinction of private/public life spheres. Similar, yet alien.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Indeed, I think you shouldn't underestimate the importance that widespread cable internet that started emerging in the 2000's had for the phenomenon. It eliminated an important weakness:

Waiting times.

 

[felipepepe]

Ironically, internet not only broaden the reach and audience of the otaku culture, but also played important role in turning then into "ghettos"... before finding a guy that enjoyed anime and had ANY VHS to share was great, you would talk with the bro and watch his tape, even if it was a anime you never heard about. They would make those sci-fi/anime/manga clubs, even here in Brazil there was small communities where every kind of people gathered to talk & watch some anime.

Now, you can have whole websites & communities devoted only to obscure sub-genres, where otaku will only talk to those with the same tastes & interests. It obviously helps to narrow-mind people. Even here in the Codex you'll see people doing things like bashing Dark Souls because "it's not a TR00 RPG", saying that discussing it has no place here. In a more obsessed otaku community, that is taken to a whole new level, especially since (unlike us) they have a MASSIVE ammount of products being tailor-made to their tastes... I mean, just look at the biodrones.

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

Even here in the Codex you'll see people doing things like bashing Dark Souls because "it's not a TR00 RPG", saying that discussing it has no place here.

Someone bitching on the Codex about a game not being a RPG, well I never.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Ironically, internet not only broaden the reach and audience of the otaku culture, but also played important role in turning then into "ghettos"... before finding a guy that enjoyed anime and had ANY VHS to share was great, you would talk with the bro and watch his tape, even if it was a anime you never heard about. They would make those sci-fi/anime/manga clubs, even here in Brazil there was small communities where every kind of people gathered to talk & watch some anime.

Now, you can have whole websites & communities devoted only to obscure sub-genres, where otaku will only talk to those with the same tastes & interests. It obviously helps to narrow-mind people. Even here in the Codex you'll see people doing things like bashing Dark Souls because "it's not a TR00 RPG", saying that discussing it has no place here. In a more obsessed otaku community, that is taken to a whole new level, especially since (unlike us) they have a MASSIVE ammount of products being tailor-made to their tastes... I mean, just look at the biodrones.

Good observation, it does ferment an "us vs them" mentality on all levels.

Even here in the Codex you'll see people doing things like bashing Dark Souls because "it's not a TR00 RPG", saying that discussing it has no place here.

Someone bitching on the Codex about a game not being a RPG, well I never.

Fixed.

 

[felipepepe]

Makes you wonder how common are "DEFINE MOE!" kind of arguments in those otaku forums.

 

[Hirato]

Makes you wonder how common are "DEFINE MOE!" kind of arguments in those otaku forums.

And apparently I managed to nail it back in january. \o/

I'm not quite sure how to describe moe...
If I was to take a stab at it, I'd say it's to make things look cute and adorable, to get the audience passionate (or protective) about a character without doing any genuine character development.

Not sure? You are spot on man! Best moe definition I ever read.

 

[felipepepe]

That's why you're such a bro Hirato. But such analysis are so easier from the outside, I wonder if there are heated debates like:

- Oh, X is best moe char ever, she's ma waifu!
- I prefer Y, so cute! ^_^
- Y IS NOT A MOE, YOU RETARD! ばか！
- YES SHE IS, IN EP 43 (EXTENDED CUT) SHE CRIES, SO SHE IS A MOE!
- SHINJI CRIES ALL THE TIME, IS HE YOUR FAVORITE MOE TOO?
ad infinitum.

 

[Gerrard]

The best way to describe moe is to use Bruce Lee's words
"Don't think. Feel!"

Makes you wonder how common are "DEFINE MOE!" kind of arguments in those otaku forums.

I'd say it's probably less common than "What is an RPG?", since there isn't much to argue about.

 

[Hirato]

It wouldn't surprise me if they looked at us with a similar perspective.

- Look at those losers, they can't even decide what an RPG is! wwww
- Yeah, it stands for Regal Paraphernalia Game and they're all about dressing up your characters in cute outfits. www
- What the heck is a "Role Playing Game"?!
- Isn't that like one of those games in which you play a role?

TL note: w == lol


And there was something else I wanted to bring up, but it slipped my mind, dammit.

 

[felipepepe]

I dared to google "shinji+moe", it took me places I was not ready to go.

 

[Hirato]

Now this I have to see for myself.








http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/11055/Is-Shinji-moe-Yes-No-Please-keep-it-on-topic/20/?

Spoiler

Shinji is not a whimp - He is a memetic badass! Your reactions to him should be limited to "Teh epicness!", "The manliness!" or "Did he just really...?!", and, if you're female or gay, "Awwwww!" and "I'll be in my bunk!"

Now, I will cement my claim with pictures of Shinji with his standart expression in battle: Cool/stoic/Determined. Yes, he looks like that for 85% of his battle screen time, and the other 15%, something unpredictable and nightmarish has happened. Please forgive him for being 14. I can prove his innate coolness with pics from the entire series and all his battles, but to prove just how epic he is, let's use pics from the first Rebuild movie, i.e, his time as a complete noob. Yes, he gets even cooler after this! MUCH cooler. Don't provoke me, I just found out how to use screenshot maker program.

Here, have some of the incredibly hot, unstoppable menace that is Ikari Shinji:
"What? I came for a family reunion, and you bastards want me to go and fight monsters? Just like that? Hello, I'm an ordinary 14 year old kid! Do I look like Clark Kent? Is this a bad Godzilla movie? Forget it. DO NOT WANT. XP ...Wait? You will make the injured pretty girl do it?"

"You'll get to know me, bitches". And look! Those sexy eyes!

---

This fearsome warrior has only just learned how to fly the thing he's in.

---

"I must'n run away"

...So he won't run away.

---

The so-called whimp, after being thrown a few kilometers:

"Don't fuck with me, you oversized dildo"

---

Yeah, totally a pathetic, whiny mess that doesn't get anything done and freaks out at the slighthest provocation.

---

Proof that berserking runs in the family:

I dare you to call him a whimp again.

---

Shinji the vaginal reference, after being fried by a laser the second time that day. His heart stopped the first time.

The tears just make it MORE badass.

---

Teh Sexy:

I'll be in my bunk.

---

Also, this wonderful young man is not only, as proven above, sexy and badass, he's also an excellent musician, an expert cook, a very thoughtful, sensitive person, and very nice and kindhearted.

Oh, and he has a pretty smile.
He is also true to himself - his creator said in an interview that shinji never did anything he didn't want to do. Isn't that badass?

...Almost too good to be true? No, this is all the truth! The only problem is, the poor thing doesn't know how badass he is! He thinks he's a coward (I don't know how on earth he got that idea) and therefore, he is a bit angsty and shy, you know, since he's such a good person, he doesn't want his alleged suckyness to hurt others. You see, his Daddy didn't tell him how cool he is and he lost his Mommy! But fragile looking boys are sexy, aren't they? Yessss....



If that didn't convince you that Shinji Ikari is absolutely NO whimp, well, this is unfortunate. *pats Shinji after you meanies made him sad*
But you know what? Half of Tokyo 3 disagrees with you! And I think the ppl who know Shinji in person are in a better position to judge him, aren't they? Look, this is what the resident hotties of Neo Tokyo 3 think:


At first, let's meet Miss Rei Ayanami II, who is, as of the second of the "Rebuild of Evangelion" movies, which are basically about how badass Shinji Ikari is (They're a tetralogy because 1 movie just isn't enough to squeeze all of Shinji's badass into it), his current girlfriend.
She is one of the most lusted-after figures in anime.
Let's slook at her reaction to Ikari Shinji being badass in front of her and also saving her life:

Rei: "Ikari-kun *.*"

---

Next, let's ask the also very well-known Asuka Langley Soryu (or, Shikinami in the New movies), who has the honor of living in the same house as the super badass Ikari Shinji.
She is also the most popular girl at her school, also universally recognized as smexy and known for taking no shit from no one and only accepting the best from herself and others. In other words, she's not easy to impress.
But look at her face after she witnessed the badass of Shinji Ikari, after he saved her life (yes, he does that a lot):

Asuka: "Baka-Shinji *.*"
Note that she usually doesn't agree with Rei very often.

---

Next is his nice, encouraging guardian, Major Misato Katsuragi who does her best to suceed where Shinji's Daddy failed i.e. to tell him he's badass. This is one of her attempts:

Misato: "Shin-chan *.*"
In case you couldn't tell by the pictures, she is also very hot and has the likes of james-bond-wannabe Ryoji Kaji (basically Jack Harkness, but heterosexual) and the loveable geek Makoto Hyuuga lusting after her.

---

Next, let's meet the much-discussed Mari Illustrious Makinami, who has been called a female Kamina. Don't be fooled by her moe-ish looks, she is a very deadly, unstoppable warrior who lives by the principle of "Nothing Ventured, nothing gained". She also has delicious E-Cup boobs, and usually prefers working alone since not many can't handle her aura of badassitude. She is cool enough to hijack an 80 meter high Mecha, usualy travels by parachute, and kills reality defying monsters FR FUN when her extreme sports bore her. She is also the lovechild of Chuck Norris and Amelia Pond. (Sorry, Rory)
This is her reaction to seeing the wonder that is Shinji Ikari:

Mari: "Puppy-kun *.*"
When Mari first laid eyes on Shinji Ikari, she noticed something very agreeable about his scent. She couldn't work out what it was tough - at least, untill she saw Shinji in Action:

Mari: "Oh, right! It was the scent of badass!"

Note that these four ladies can be trusted to know a badass when they see one since they...

...have plenty....

...of experience....

...in that field...

...themselves.

---

NOw, let's move on to the next member of Shinji's fanclub, the resident memetic sexgod of Tokyo 3: Kaworu Nagisa! Yes, Shinji is so sexy and badass that even the guys want him! It's no wonder tough, since Shinji and Kaworu share so many interests, like Music and Philosophy. They are both rather deep people.
This is how a cool, intellectual person like Kaworu reacts to Shinji:

Kaworu: "Shinji-kun *.*"

---

Those above are by far not the only ones who think Shinji is the hottest thing on earth: Let's see what Mana Kirishima, a cool mecha pilot, (actual mecha, not biologic thingie that pretty much moves by itself) thinks of him:

Mana: "Shinji Ikari is so hot! I NEED him to become my boyfriend!"

---

And there's more - let's see the reaction of Mayumi Yamagishi, another pretty girl with an excellent singing voice that makes most boys go AWW, who got her life saved by the super badass Shinji Ikari. Twice. (Yes. He REALLY does that alot)

Mayumi: *singing* "Jibun no utsukushisa mada shiranai..."
(taken from "Beautiful world". "You still haven't realized your own beauty.

---

Is there no one who can resist Shinji Ikari? Apparently not. Even the icy, unfeeling Rei Ayanami the Third finds him hot - Even hotter than the infamous Uberpimp!

Rei III: "I can't. Another Ikari is hotter than you."

---

These are only a few of Shinji's countless fangirls, some of which can be seen here:

In case you couldn't tell, the owners of these pretty legs are shouting "Ikari-kun".
Also, Shinji could have any of them whenever he wanted, but the one he's interested in is the pale, lonely, sickly-looking one in the corner.
See what a good-natured, non-superficial person he is?

---

But all these might be biased right? They're members of his harem, after all. So let's get a neutral opinion, that of Hikari Horaki, another much-lusted after pretty girl:

Hikari: "Ikari-kun seems to be a sensitive guy."
Hikari is the one on the right btw. The cutie on the left is Asuka - she might be acting like she hears this for the first time, but as evidenced by the above pic, she is simply in denial because the effect Teh Shinji has on her heart and body is just too much for her to bear. Mommy issues. Tey are not uncommon in Tokyo 3. In fact, so not uncommon that those meanies will call you a Mary Sue without them.

---

What the fuck...?!

I think we all agree that Shinji is too hot for his own good.

---

So, to get a truly neutral opinion concerning his badassitude from someone who can't possibly have the hots for him, let's see how his father reacts to Shinji being badass.

If even FREAKIN GENDO IKARI shows a reaction like this, how did ANYONE EVER get the idea that Shinji is a whimp?
Can anyone explain that to me?



Now, you probably have a few questions.
I will gladly answer them.

a) How can Shinji possibly be so hot?

It's the wonders of genetics.
Look here: This is Shinji's Mommy:

and this is his Daddy:

And this is Shinji:

From his Mommy he got:
- Cute shape of the eyes
- nice loving smile
- lots and lots of talents
- those lovely parted bangs
- cute rounded cheeks
- fragile, elegant body shape
- intelligence
- his complete DO NOT WANT attitude
- his apeshit-y fighthing style

From his daddy, he got:
- intriguing blue eyes
- cool dark brown hair
- any part of his hot face that isn't passed down from his mommy
- more intelligence
- cute, troubled personality
- apparently, very chick-attracting pheromones
- the will to tear open the sky and shatter the earth for his loved ones
- Shinji's skin tone is somewhat in between those of his parents.

b) How can Shinji possibly be so badass?
Simple math.
Look here:
This:

plus THIS:

equals THIS:

...I'm out!