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RTS Replaying Warcraft III

shihonage

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Bubbles In Memoria
I abandoned WC3 campaign because it was full of annoying scripted missions with arbitrary objectives which frankly had that stink of a mundane quest, while all I wanted to do is just play the damn game.
 

InD_ImaginE

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Warcraft 3 is perhaps the only game I exclusively play human, think that human is the master race, and anybody who plays and likes the other race to be total faggots.
 

Konjad

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Warcraft 3 is perhaps the only game I exclusively play human, think that human is the master race, and anybody who plays and likes the other race to be total faggots.
humans are faggots in WC3, lol elves and sexy wimmyn between them too, while humans were badass in WC2.

You're a faggot
 

MilesBeyond

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716
WC3 was total decline. WC2 was the best and had the best multiplayer too. I only played WC3 and add on because at some point WC2 was almost dead with only the most hardcore players still online. WC3 was an obvious fall of Blizzard. It was still a good game, just like Starcraft 2 is, but both fall short in comparison with the old games.

WC2's multiplayer is something that always fascinates me, because it is so much less balanced than later games. The advantage Orcs have over Humans is far more pronounced than any other factional difference in a Blizzard RTS (except possibly WC1? I don't know). I'm intrigued by the notion that even though the factions are almost symmetrical, all that really means is that the few areas where they aren't symmetrical end up having a much bigger difference - ironically making the game, I think, more difficult to balance well.
 

Quatlo

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WC3 was total decline. WC2 was the best and had the best multiplayer too. I only played WC3 and add on because at some point WC2 was almost dead with only the most hardcore players still online. WC3 was an obvious fall of Blizzard. It was still a good game, just like Starcraft 2 is, but both fall short in comparison with the old games.

WC2's multiplayer is something that always fascinates me, because it is so much less balanced than later games. The advantage Orcs have over Humans is far more pronounced than any other factional difference in a Blizzard RTS (except possibly WC1? I don't know). I'm intrigued by the notion that even though the factions are almost symmetrical, all that really means is that the few areas where they aren't symmetrical end up having a much bigger difference - ironically making the game, I think, more difficult to balance well.
Is it? I've always found mages to be much more powerful than bloodlust.
Polymorph locks you out of even thinking about using hasted bloodlusted dragons except as suicide peasant snipers, exorcism snipes deathknights no problem, and with slow and heal you actually gain upper hand in combat against ogres. Not to mention the mega cheesy invisibility + flame shield harassment tactic.
Humans just require much more micro to do well.
 

Maculo

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Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
I have to confess that I never finished the first and last mission of the undead campaign on hard in TFT. In most RTS games, I play on max difficulty, but I just hit a wall with those missions.

Great Deceiver, I would suggest the player-made campaigns Curse of the Forsaken and Rise of the Blood Elves. Typically, I avoid custom campaigns, but I found these campaigns to be fairly entertaining so far. For example, in Curse of the Forsaken, you have to survive against an undead invasion of Orgrimar for 30 minutes. After 30 minutes, the mission shifts and you must go on the attack against three (3) undead bases with just forty (40) supply of Tauren and Spirit Walkers (you get two (2) buildings to produce units, that's it). One undead base sends flying units (Frost Wyrms, Gargoyles, Devours), one sends casters (Lich, necromancers, banshees, meat wagons), and the final one sends melee units (Death Knight, Abominations, Ghouls). You fail the mission if one of your heroes dies or the undead destroy the production buildings.

Not all the missions are equal, but if you enjoy the WC3 campaigns, then I think Curse of the Forsaken and Rise of the Blood Elves are worth it. Personally, I loved the of WC2 and WC3 campaigns to death, and I have yet to find an RTS game that reproduces that level of enjoyment.
 

Rossy

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Messages
17
WC3 was total decline. WC2 was the best and had the best multiplayer too. I only played WC3 and add on because at some point WC2 was almost dead with only the most hardcore players still online. WC3 was an obvious fall of Blizzard. It was still a good game, just like Starcraft 2 is, but both fall short in comparison with the old games.

WC2's multiplayer is something that always fascinates me, because it is so much less balanced than later games. The advantage Orcs have over Humans is far more pronounced than any other factional difference in a Blizzard RTS (except possibly WC1? I don't know). I'm intrigued by the notion that even though the factions are almost symmetrical, all that really means is that the few areas where they aren't symmetrical end up having a much bigger difference - ironically making the game, I think, more difficult to balance well.
Is it? I've always found mages to be much more powerful than bloodlust.
Polymorph locks you out of even thinking about using hasted bloodlusted dragons except as suicide peasant snipers, exorcism snipes deathknights no problem, and with slow and heal you actually gain upper hand in combat against ogres. Not to mention the mega cheesy invisibility + flame shield harassment tactic.
Humans just require much more micro to do well.

I do think you underestimate the power of bloodlust. Before you can cast slow/heal etc. your army is already dead. There's a reason almost everyone just plays Orc.
 
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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
WC3 was a better strategy game than WC2, but atmosphere-wise I'd say it was a bit weaker. WC2 was still very much a pastiche of warhammer and liberally stole stylistic elements from 80s/90s tabletop gaming in general. WC3 ditched some of this for the home grown blizzard style which informs most stuff that came after. Still WC3 pulls of that style better than most of the stuff that follows. Compare the atmosphere of Diablo and Starcraft to their latest iterations to see how much worse it could have been. Warcraft was at least a little goofier to begin with.

Once you get by the style/plot stuff though the switch away from the pseudo symmetrical sides to asymmetrical sides made the game a lot better even if the focus was more on small unit groups. I think there was a bit too much emphasis on hero units than there should have been. In stuff like 2v2 matches you often had to emphasize your hero development or fall behind and lose, and if your hero died early on it often meant you were screwed. Still it was a very well done RTS even if it laid the groundwork for the classic RTS model to get toppled by MOBAs.
 

Maculo

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Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
Great Deceiver, I forgot to mention that you need the latest patch of Wc3 to play (1.27). Certain cutscenes in Curse of the Forsaken and Rise of the Blood Elves will not load properly. Overall, I think Curse of the Forsaken is more entertaining and challenging, compared to Rise of the Blood Elves. Overall, both have worthwhile moments.

Another custom campaign I recently started is the Chosen Ones. It plays similar to WoW/Dota in the sense that it is isometric and you complete quests, kill bosses, and gain levels/items. I find the boss battles and progression system rather creative. The downside is that the load times are long as hell.
 

Gal

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WC2 owns WC3 in every aspect. I still managed to play WC3 when out but couldn't enjoy it as much because of too many crappy decisions.
 
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SC was more intuitive and better for Korean 'gaming tv' because things look like they counter the shit that they actually counter (e.g. firebats v organic).

WC3 and TFT added something awesome that was lacking from SC. No, not heroes - they're a means to this end. WC3/TFT add timing. It's still the only RTS game I've played where at ladder level you've got matchups where you literally cannot win a standing fight against an enemy for long periods....and that's fine because you've got harassment, hit+run, speed advantages and an economy system that's set up to allow guerilla tactics to work.

I mostly played Undead for ladder matches - wasn't pro tournament level by any means, but had excellent ranking on the Asian servers with that account. I remember you'd always get these idiots saying 'but but but mass frostwyrms/tauren/seige-engines = win', and not understanding when other plays go 'but why did you let that match-up go to frost wyrm stage?' Playing at a decent level, you'd go in with a strategy with not only 'what tier will I try to make the 'big battle' happen at', but a time window, probably of about 3 minutes, where depending on your strategy the undead could win a standing fight and then move on and crush the base. Take Orc v Undead. For most of the game, regardless of build, if the orcs march their army over to the undead base, it's game over for undead. You'll either spend so much on base defence that you're fucked (and orcs are great at cracking open undead base defences anyway), or they'll just smash you. But they're slow, and Death Knight aura makes everything on undead team fucking quick, and undead have so many scouting options there's no excuse for not knowing where the orc army is at all times. Orc starts marching with grunts and catapults at start, DK+fiends will just pick off all the catapults with hit and run attacks (alternating between doubling back and killing an orc base building or two, best case scenario even forcing them to give up on their early army push to spend on a couple of towers instead.

Orc has a nice counter though. They've weak anti-air, undead have awesome anti-air....but the orc air comes first and increases in effectiveness exponentially if massed (gargoyles are best air v air, but melee attack, so massing isn't a good option). If you don't disrupt their economy enough early on, they could reach tier 2, lay down 2 bestiaries. As soon as that happens, no more easy hit-and-runs on their base, because they'll have 1-2 raiders. Offensive v most races, but against undead, it's so they can net+kill retreating undead units at the rear of a hit+run attack. And out of the same buildings come wyverns...lots of them.

It's an all or nothing for orc though - a tier 2 victory attempt. If you've hit their economy early, maybe an expansion or tech tier ahead, they're fucked and can't recover because they've pumped all their cash into the mid-game. Undead has an equivalent with a tier 2 caster strat, but weaker - only reason you'd go it is if you smashed them in the early game hit-and-runs and you're just closing out the game.

More likely, orcs will have a mixed army, and a fucking good one - quick teching/expanding because they won't spend a cent on casters. They've got healing from their heroes, their ground units don't need buffs to dominate, and they know that any magic just powers the undead's tier 3 destroyers (which consequnently see little use v orcs). I.e. a ground army that the undead simply cannot counter - yeah, you'll have your meatshield aboms out by then (waiting until tier 3 to get a basic tanking unit is a bitch), but they don't do much damage, and even grunts will eat them alive, let alone tauren with spear-throwers, raiders etc. So you know as undead that you've got 8 minutes of holding on for dear life, just guerilla tactics like crazy, because that's how long it takes to lay down a boneyard and get ONE frost wyrm up in the air.

And then the orcs are fucked, because that's the one thing that army can't handle - they'd have to completely scrap their army and retool, and unlike you, they don't have a speed advantage with which to keep you at bay for the time it would take to do that:)
 

Fever

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WC2 was indeed a fantastic game, my fav RTS of all time. It is true that it was totally imbalanced favoring orc tho, and that was quite the issue for little me who loved to play humans.
All the people I used to battle against played orcs, and there was no way to keep up with their bloodlusted armies with my holy healings under 200 APM.
The funny thing is that humans played by PC were scary as fuck, since they could insta-polymorph your armies and clearly had a perfect, ultra-fast use of holy healings, making head-on battles with balanced numbers almost unwinnable. You really had to resort to cheesy and/or guerrilla tactics.

When I first played WC3, I felt it was a huge decline from its predecessor. I didn't like the introduction of heroes, nor the engine. It did grow on me and still spawned fantastic custom maps to play for years to come, so I cannot complain.
 

Seethe

Arbiter
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Nov 22, 2015
Messages
967
You have to be a special kind of retard to say that AoE 2 is even close to being remotely decent. It was a shit game, with shit art, shit interface, shit campaign, shit balance and shit audio. The only good thing was the music, and better versions of that were remixed in WC3 and WoW. You like crappy 2D pixel art? Choose AoE 2 then, because that one isn't complete shit.

Oh and P.S: W3 has the best world editor of any RTS game.
 
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SC was more intuitive and better for Korean 'gaming tv' because things look like they counter the shit that they actually counter (e.g. firebats v organic).

WC3 and TFT added something awesome that was lacking from SC. No, not heroes - they're a means to this end. WC3/TFT add timing. It's still the only RTS game I've played where at ladder level you've got matchups where you literally cannot win a standing fight against an enemy for long periods....and that's fine because you've got harassment, hit+run, speed advantages and an economy system that's set up to allow guerilla tactics to work.

I mostly played Undead for ladder matches - wasn't pro tournament level by any means, but had excellent ranking on the Asian servers with that account. I remember you'd always get these idiots saying 'but but but mass frostwyrms/tauren/seige-engines = win', and not understanding when other plays go 'but why did you let that match-up go to frost wyrm stage?' Playing at a decent level, you'd go in with a strategy with not only 'what tier will I try to make the 'big battle' happen at', but a time window, probably of about 3 minutes, where depending on your strategy the undead could win a standing fight and then move on and crush the base. Take Orc v Undead. For most of the game, regardless of build, if the orcs march their army over to the undead base, it's game over for undead. You'll either spend so much on base defence that you're fucked (and orcs are great at cracking open undead base defences anyway), or they'll just smash you. But they're slow, and Death Knight aura makes everything on undead team fucking quick, and undead have so many scouting options there's no excuse for not knowing where the orc army is at all times. Orc starts marching with grunts and catapults at start, DK+fiends will just pick off all the catapults with hit and run attacks (alternating between doubling back and killing an orc base building or two, best case scenario even forcing them to give up on their early army push to spend on a couple of towers instead.

Orc has a nice counter though. They've weak anti-air, undead have awesome anti-air....but the orc air comes first and increases in effectiveness exponentially if massed (gargoyles are best air v air, but melee attack, so massing isn't a good option). If you don't disrupt their economy enough early on, they could reach tier 2, lay down 2 bestiaries. As soon as that happens, no more easy hit-and-runs on their base, because they'll have 1-2 raiders. Offensive v most races, but against undead, it's so they can net+kill retreating undead units at the rear of a hit+run attack. And out of the same buildings come wyverns...lots of them.

It's an all or nothing for orc though - a tier 2 victory attempt. If you've hit their economy early, maybe an expansion or tech tier ahead, they're fucked and can't recover because they've pumped all their cash into the mid-game. Undead has an equivalent with a tier 2 caster strat, but weaker - only reason you'd go it is if you smashed them in the early game hit-and-runs and you're just closing out the game.

More likely, orcs will have a mixed army, and a fucking good one - quick teching/expanding because they won't spend a cent on casters. They've got healing from their heroes, their ground units don't need buffs to dominate, and they know that any magic just powers the undead's tier 3 destroyers (which consequnently see little use v orcs). I.e. a ground army that the undead simply cannot counter - yeah, you'll have your meatshield aboms out by then (waiting until tier 3 to get a basic tanking unit is a bitch), but they don't do much damage, and even grunts will eat them alive, let alone tauren with spear-throwers, raiders etc. So you know as undead that you've got 8 minutes of holding on for dear life, just guerilla tactics like crazy, because that's how long it takes to lay down a boneyard and get ONE frost wyrm up in the air.

And then the orcs are fucked, because that's the one thing that army can't handle - they'd have to completely scrap their army and retool, and unlike you, they don't have a speed advantage with which to keep you at bay for the time it would take to do that:)

Uhm, ever heard of 6 pool?
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
I had to bump this to bitch about the Night Elf campaign in TFT, which has got to be my least favourite campaign in any strategy game ever. Maiev is like the worst character in the history of fiction.

Also, just in case people haven't seen this:

 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
Giving the campaign another spin. A couple of thoughts:

I kinda like how the Human campaign is basically a better done version of the Star Wars prequels. Not that that's a challenge.

I also kinda like how the big plot twist of the game, that the mysterious Prophet is actually the sorcerer Medivh, is something that's only going to be interesting to people who've played Warcraft 1.
 

Mazisky

Magister
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Mar 8, 2015
Messages
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Rome, IT
Many, many years after, the gaming industry still has not made a decent fantasy RTS.
 

Maggot

Arcane
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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire
I'm also playing through the campaign and I forgot Thrall was a little bitch even in WC3 and the Night Elf drama is dumb.
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
I'm also playing through the campaign and I forgot Thrall was a little bitch even in WC3 and the Night Elf drama is dumb.

Night Elf drama is the worst. Also the RoC NE campaign feels super rushed. It's like you kill some dudes then it's like five missions of drama and then it's suddenly like "Oh yeah, demons. Well here's the Humans and Orcs who have suddenly decided to ally with you guys, time for the last mission!"

And then when that's over TFT immediately springs you into more NE drama. Even worse, this time.
 

Maggot

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire
I think we can all agree elves are shit. A Naga faction would have been way more interesting.
 

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