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[Released, work in progress] NWN2 Mod - Ruins of the Sun God

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So, I've been working on and off in the NWN2 toolset for a while now, starting around 4 years ago with this tiny single player module that was just a "kill all monsters" type quest in 3 small areas. I had some time today and felt like designing something, so I went back to this thing that I abandoned so long ago. It's a very short but complete little adventure now. I had put it on NWVault as an example module for others who might want to look up how to do some stuff, but now that it's somewhat playable I thought why not link it on Ye Olde 'Dex as well. Here's the module download:

http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NW ... ail&id=103
Ruins of the Sun God v0.4

Short adventure module for level 1 characters (any class, but fighters and rogues work best). 3 areas (1 outdoors, 2 indoors).

- Some basic equipment is provided and the adventure can be finished with a newly generated character.
- Quest starts by entering the module.
- Note: the adventure can be finished without killing anything if you have good roguey skills.
- There are some fairly low-power unique loot items to be found.
- Total XP will take ECL 0 characters to level 2.
- Export your character yourself after the end if you want to continue on in some other module, this is not done automatically.

CHANGES
0.4:
- completely redone as a stand-alone adventure

While this was originally just "solvable" by killing every single monster, I now added an option to finish the thing peacefully as well (by sneaking that is): IT IS POSSIBLE TO TOTALLY AVOID COMBAT IN THIS TINY ASS MODULE! ;) If any of you BROs feel like playing through this (it takes like 15 minutes max), I'd be happy to hear what you think. I didn't use any resources from MOTB or SOZ as far as I know, but you may need both to run this anyway.
 

Elwro

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Since I'll only have my cheap laptop which cannot play NWN 2 until the end of May, all I can do is *BUMP* this.

It's nice when even a small project gets completed, congrats! I wonder if Volourn did anything with his NWN module, which I remember playing and which was, I'd guess, 80% complete...
 
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Found a neat script on NWVault for making secret doors. http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NW ... ail&id=161

Works nice and easy. :)

Exploration really should be encouraged and rewarded, but I'm not even sure if NWN2 players are used to doing that rather than just holding Z for highlighting everything (which won't work on these scripted secret doors). I'm putting one of these in anyway, replacing the un-bashable highly locked door from the previous version.

Hm, the trigger area may be a bit small. Hard to judge.
 

Pony King

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I've played through your mod twice and i had the following thoughts in approximate chronological order:

I roll a necromancer, slightly tilted towards strength so as to be able to fight the monsters that i expect to find. As the module starts I'm struck by how crappy the controls are, I thought I remembered how terrible the nwn2 camera was, but was evidently wrong.
I engage the archeologist in conversation and he points me at the free gear in the heavy looking chest next to him. Now, I realize that this is a small adventure made in your free time, but the ecology of the adventure is important and requires that the man had some method of getting to the temple with the crate, and he looked too frail to having carried it all the way. How about a cart & donkey or something?
The disappointment only last until the old man mentions that the dungeon is dark and that I should bring a torch. I sense the delicious odor of tremendous amounts of incline! I immediately equip myself with a dagger, torch and healing items and enter the dungeon.
The dungeon is as promised, wonderfully dark, and only my torch allows me to see what is around me. I've obviously just lied as the game has a highlight usable objects/enemies feature that somewhat ruins the darkness, but it adds atmosphere and that is important in a game that doesn't have really good combat.
I proceed to the left of the entrance and immediately die in one hit to a dire rat, incline! I immediately reload, casts flare on the rat and kill the nasty vermin with my dagger.
Enlightened to the danger of the dungeon, I proceed slowly and methodically. Occasionally pressing z for finding any monsters and usable stuff that I hadn't noticed yet. I see a stink beetle and immediately casts mage armor on myself and fear on the beetle, allowing me to dispatch the beetle using only two healing potions. These last two encounters translate into incline for the ecology aspect of the dungeon as vermin are likely contenders for inhabiting the abandoned places that adventurers are attracted to.
Next to the beetle I find a ring of crimson (crimson ring?) and delight at the low loot experience. Being drenched in countless "short sword + 1" is not my idea of a good RPG.
I take the stairs down and meet a skeleton who I manage to dispatch with luck in a few hits. I also notice a locked door that I'm unable to open as well as some minor loot on a dead warrior. I proceed upstairs to the archeologist and get my XP reward, use it on getting open luck skill and try the locked door only to find that it requires a roll of 25, an amount unattainable with my current character. I end the module.

Later on I decide to find out what you hid behind the door and roll a dashingly handsome rogue, obviously calculated with the locked door in mind.
I sneak when entering the dungeon and use sneak attack on both of the vermin, failing both times and killing both with the use of all my healing potions. I proceed downstairs and engage the skeleton while stealthed, missing my third sneak attack. I could have snuck past him, but decided to engage him to judge his difficulty. I was hit for all of my 7 hitpoints in his second swing. I dislike the possibility of being one-hit killed in low level DnD as there is precious little room for utilizing tactics, though a longsword + 1 damage point from strength is not unreasonable and you should (and presumably will) decide for yourself how you feel about this. Though I can't help but mentioning how queer it is for a person, who is poor enough to resort to robbing graves, to wield a longsword. In my eyes a longsword is instead what you would find on the guards of a rich man or the veterans in an army. Also, if even the lowliest of scum use longswords why do short swords even exist? Not to mention daggers and knives.
Anyway, I unlock the door and find a usable sarcophagus. I open it and find a shield and a book. The latter had a custom description, though rather dull and seemingly not inspired by the place that it was found in. Perhaps it could be only half-unreadable and mention something about rigid bookkeeping? I seem to remember Amaunator being big on that.
After quitting the module I realized that I hadn't found a single trap, which I'd say is incline. Traps are used too often in places that don't make sense, why would the priests of Amaunator trap their own building? Doesn't make any sense.
Also, a shield is a weird reward for a place that only a rogue is likely to enter. You could utilize the unique description that you gave it and increase it's value to collectors (or generally if the game has such an option) allowing the rogue to escape with a minor fortune. This is assuming that the module will one day grow to be bigger than the current temple, if not the rogues seem to be out of luck.

I hope this post has been BROlicious and helpful, if not I can simply give you a BROfist for not being a pussy about the combat.
:bro:
 
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FH, why do you use alt/sockpuppets to praise your own module? I thought you were above this kind of shit. :?
 
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Cut me some slack dude, everyone's doing it these days. THIS SI TEH NEW SHIT :marylinmanson:

(No, PonyKing is not me.)

Thank you, PonyKing, for the huge amount of text you just deposited there, all of those are good points. I'm not exactly :mca: yet so I'm making all kinds of errors in writing and design, so it's good you're not refraining from criticism (as it should be on the glorious KKKodex :rpgcodex:). I will take the points to heart and try to improve.

PS: PonyKing, there's already a new version uploaded that changes the lower level a bit, now the module can be solved nonviolently even for a char who has only good sneak but no open locks. That leads to a problem of too unobvious secret doors though...
 
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Just some random thoughts I had on the use of stealth:

- In NWN2 light sources do not affect your ability to sneak at all. That means that you can sneak around holding a frickin burning torch in your hand and it doesn't matter.

- Turning off the lights in an area (as I've done) means that the player absolutely has to have some form of illumination or all you see is pitch black. Unless you navigate by holding Z to highlight every interesting thing in the area, i.e. cheating, any character without darkvision is stopped dead.

- I can't really see how to make stealth non-retarded without adding some sort of huge malus (-20) to both Hide and Move Silently on torch items and any item with light on it (this assumes that the module will only be played with new or items-less characters of course). In addition, the Light spell would incur the same thing if cast on person or item, for the duration of the spell. As a compromise, "small" light items like rings might be given a much smaller malus (-5) because they could conceivably be better concealed at a moments notice and they don't burn like a miniature sun over someone's head.

Both these changes aren't too hard to do, and I'm wondering if this wouldn't be interesting to make the Light spell actually an offensive weapon, as in you cast it on a sneaking enemy who then becomes effectively incapable of hiding any more (I had some ideas for making a quest of some sort where you hunt some sneaky animal). It would also have the effect of making darkvision really damn useful rather than the gimmick it is in the vanilla game.

As for the highlighting thing, I'm thinking of some easy script where you have to pass a search check that is triggered by walking near a point of interest before containers and such are actually spawned into the area. That way, you can only highlight stuff you actually have discovered IC. It means a bit more work (only a bit I hope) to create stuff of interest, but it seems far more rewarding to detect something useful using your IC search skill (which really needs some use) rather than just pressing Z and having everything delivered on a platter. Well, maybe not every single thing would be done like that, huge ass wardrobes are pretty obvious I guess. This would be only for dungeon levels rather than some residential place like a house or such. Might also think of triggering the visibility of placeables only once you enter a room, not just if you entered the level.

Some thoughts on PonyKing's suggestions:
- put free gear in something more sensible, maybe a sack, and put a donkey/horse in
- give the skeleton an appropriate weapon, maybe a rusty shortsword (-1 damage), for increased immersion and also to diminish the danger of one hit kills a bit
- make the book item more interesting
- possibly different "bonus" loot item, not a shield (though the "secret area" does not need a rogue to enter now)

I've been wondering about the resting system as well. I'd like to make this thing bigger at some point, maybe make this the starting point of a grander adventure where the book leads you to a bigger temple with hidden treasures or something the like. That will need a better system I think than the default rest-anywhere-anytime. Any thoughts? BG/PnP style only regain a couple of HP per day maybe?

Oh, and maybe think of some way to add minor XP for doing small RPish things like passing the Diplomacy check and finding secret doors etc.

Two nice possible additions from the vault:
Pencil n Paper Coins http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NW ... ail&id=135
Torch needs oil http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NW ... ail&id=236
Just for added realism, coins with weight (I wouldn't use the standard gold coins system at all then) and different worths and a torch that won't burn forever.

Another note: I think there should be a "rusty/blunt" category of the non-magical bladed weapons with some malus (-1 slashing damage?), just to add some more spice and so there's more variety at the very low levels. This way even a normal longsword becomes something of worth rather than total trash after level 1. Possibly the same for rusty/damaged armors but with some other malus I guess (not sure if -1 AC is possible, will check). I generally dislike high level DnD because it simply stops making sense and characters just get too damn powerful, so anything that improves the lower levels is great.
 
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Made a new feature: hidden items

HIDDEN ITEMS) Hidden throughout the levels are items that are not initially visible (can't be found by hovering the mouse over them). These will only be revealed if you happen to stand near them long enough and pass a Search skill check (the DC of the check is not revealed to you, checks are performed once per round). The item will then become visible (a visual effect will also play to notify you) and you will gain a small amount of XP for discovering something. An example for this feature is a copper ring that you will find near Alphons Loam. Walk slowly around the areas so your character doesn't miss anything interesting, it's worth it! Invest in your Search skill so you're less likely to miss goodies!

Currently I've only got that copper ring put in for testing and as a "tutorial" to introduce this feature to new players, but I'm going to place more (and more powerful/interesting) items around the levels. A possible way to make this more variable would be to spawn a random item from some category, so you may find a scroll of bless in one game and a magic dagger the next time.
 

Pony King

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Freelance Henchman said:
- Turning off the lights in an area (as I've done) means that the player absolutely has to have some form of illumination or all you see is pitch black. Unless you navigate by holding Z to highlight every interesting thing in the area, i.e. cheating, any character without darkvision is stopped dead.
Only rogues are encumbered by this and only if you make torches decrease stealth. Also z isn't cheating, it's utilizing the tools that are available.
Or did I miss the problem?

Freelance Henchman said:
- I can't really see how to make stealth non-retarded without adding some sort of huge malus (-20) to both Hide and Move Silently on torch items and any item with light on it (this assumes that the module will only be played with new or items-less characters of course).
Logically it should only reduce hide since the amount of light in a room has nothing to do with moving silently.

Freelance Henchman said:
Both these changes aren't too hard to do, and I'm wondering if this wouldn't be interesting to make the Light spell actually an offensive weapon, as in you cast it on a sneaking enemy who then becomes effectively incapable of hiding any more (I had some ideas for making a quest of some sort where you hunt some sneaky animal). It would also have the effect of making darkvision really damn useful rather than the gimmick it is in the vanilla game.
You can't hide again if you're already found. Unless you have hide in plain sight and I don't know if the AI knows how to use that properly.


Freelance Henchman said:
As for the highlighting thing, I'm thinking of some easy script where you have to pass a search check that is triggered by walking near a point of interest before containers and such are actually spawned into the area. That way, you can only highlight stuff you actually have discovered IC. It means a bit more work (only a bit I hope) to create stuff of interest, but it seems far more rewarding to detect something useful using your IC search skill (which really needs some use) rather than just pressing Z and having everything delivered on a platter. Well, maybe not every single thing would be done like that, huge ass wardrobes are pretty obvious I guess. This would be only for dungeon levels rather than some residential place like a house or such. Might also think of triggering the visibility of placeables only once you enter a room, not just if you entered the level.

I've been wondering about the resting system as well. I'd like to make this thing bigger at some point, maybe make this the starting point of a grander adventure where the book leads you to a bigger temple with hidden treasures or something the like. That will need a better system I think than the default rest-anywhere-anytime. Any thoughts? BG/PnP style only regain a couple of HP per day maybe?

Oh, and maybe think of some way to add minor XP for doing small RPish things like passing the Diplomacy check and finding secret doors etc.
You probably already know this, but to answer any of these question you'll need to strictly define what you're trying to do or the module will quickly grow too big and risk being unrewarding for you as a builder. Are you trying for survival horror? A simple dungeon romp that utilizes all or a specific subset of skills? The system should be changed to accentuate the kind of style you're trying for.

Freelance Henchman said:
- give the skeleton an appropriate weapon, maybe a rusty shortsword (-1 damage), for increased immersion and also to diminish the danger of one hit kills a bit

Two nice possible additions from the vault:
Pencil n Paper Coins http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NW ... ail&id=135
Torch needs oil http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NW ... ail&id=236
Just for added realism, coins with weight (I wouldn't use the standard gold coins system at all then) and different worths and a torch that won't burn forever.

Another note: I think there should be a "rusty/blunt" category of the non-magical bladed weapons with some malus (-1 slashing damage?), just to add some more spice and so there's more variety at the very low levels. This way even a normal longsword becomes something of worth rather than total trash after level 1. Possibly the same for rusty/damaged armors but with some other malus I guess (not sure if -1 AC is possible, will check). I generally dislike high level DnD because it simply stops making sense and characters just get too damn powerful, so anything that improves the lower levels is great.
:x
I've never understood appeals to either realism or immersion as both seem to be buzzwords with little relevance to anyone but yourself. When I mention ecology I'm referring to a method of logically deconstructing a RPG, as my experience tells me that internal logic makes for better games. Or at least that's the attempt.
Phew, rage levels are no longer critical.

Writing these posts is making me want to go back and build that NWN2 module that I never got very far with. If only the toolset was less obtuse.
 

Lord Rocket

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Freelance Henchman said:
Made a new feature: hidden items

HIDDEN ITEMS) Hidden throughout the levels are items that are not initially visible (can't be found by hovering the mouse over them). These will only be revealed if you happen to stand near them long enough and pass a Search skill check (the DC of the check is not revealed to you, checks are performed once per round). The item will then become visible (a visual effect will also play to notify you) and you will gain a small amount of XP for discovering something. An example for this feature is a copper ring that you will find near Alphons Loam. Walk slowly around the areas so your character doesn't miss anything interesting, it's worth it! Invest in your Search skill so you're less likely to miss goodies!

Currently I've only got that copper ring put in for testing and as a "tutorial" to introduce this feature to new players, but I'm going to place more (and more powerful/interesting) items around the levels. A possible way to make this more variable would be to spawn a random item from some category, so you may find a scroll of bless in one game and a magic dagger the next time.

Well bro I'm proud of you for actually getting off your arse and doing something, and if I had NWN2 I'd play this shit and post some proper thoughts, BUT...
Is walking around real slow-like and waiting for items to pop up really a feature you want in the game? I dunno man, I reckon just a check against your Search skill (or Spot or whatever it is in 3.5, I forget) when you walk - not run, of course - by would discourage 'grinding' for items. Maybe you get another chance if you've had a long rest since the last time you tried.
 
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Pony King said:
Logically it should only reduce hide since the amount of light in a room has nothing to do with moving silently.

You can't hide again if you're already found. Unless you have hide in plain sight and I don't know if the AI knows how to use that properly.

My thoughts went into the direction that a guy walking around with a flickering torch is pretty obvious, compared to someone walking in darkness, but then the torch doesn't technically make you louder. I guess "visibility" is already covered by the Hide skill, so decreasing that alone should work fine.

Ah right, I forgot you can't hide again without HIPS if you're still visible.

You probably already know this, but to answer any of these question you'll need to strictly define what you're trying to do or the module will quickly grow too big and risk being unrewarding for you as a builder. Are you trying for survival horror? A simple dungeon romp that utilizes all or a specific subset of skills? The system should be changed to accentuate the kind of style you're trying for.

This was supposed to give opportunities to use a lot of the "classic" dungeon skills and make them worth having.

I've never understood appeals to either realism or immersion as both seem to be buzzwords with little relevance to anyone but yourself. When I mention ecology I'm referring to a method of logically deconstructing a RPG, as my experience tells me that internal logic makes for better games. Or at least that's the attempt.

Yes, internal logic is what I wanted to improve with this. You brought me to this really with the robber's skeleton that inexplicably has an expensive, powerful weapon in good condition. I thought it would a) make the skeleton more believable and b) make "normal/non-rusty" weapons more valuable if this lower tier existed.
 
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Lord Rocket said:
Is walking around real slow-like and waiting for items to pop up really a feature you want in the game? I dunno man, I reckon just a check against your Search skill (or Spot or whatever it is in 3.5, I forget) when you walk - not run, of course - by would discourage 'grinding' for items. Maybe you get another chance if you've had a long rest since the last time you tried.

It's not even that extreme, you make the checks if you're just in the region that's designated for detection, even if you happen to be running. The idea is more to add some pleasant surprises I guess, it would never mean you lose on vital objects needed to finish quests or such. This wouldn't be placed in totally random, empty spaces either, but rather close to places of interest where it would (hopefully) make sense.

I'm not sure now, it seemed like a neat idea at the time but maybe it's too much.
 
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Uh, after some testing it became clear that the "search by standing around" thing is a) boring and b) doesn't work right (it sometimes spawns an arbitrary number of the item for no apparent reason). It was worth a try I guess but forcing the player to stand around waiting for a random number to come up isn't fun. :lol:

I'm trying something else instead: a flat DC for the Search skill (Take 20 is enabled) on looking at certain containers. If the DC is exceeded, you get the item. Does that seem slightly more fun?
 

Lord Rocket

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Yeah, that sounds better - at least, you'll cut back on people running back and forth like headless chickens, and that's a good thing. I suppose the downside is that now the playerwill spend more time clicking on everything but oh well, that's CRPG gameplay in a nutshell.
 
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Uploaded the current version http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Nw ... ail&id=103

CHANGES
0.6:
- search checks to reveal hidden items in containers
- strength check for opening a certain container
- different loot, reduced total XP (finishing will not reach level 2)
- adjusted monsters
- "diversified" secrets: not everything secret is in one place
- some changes to placeables and conversation to make the location more sensible

I also found out that you can't add a malus or anything at all but light effects to the torch item, so no dice with the stealth. Ah well.

Oh, and the search thing is automatic whenever you click on any kind of container you would normally click on anyway, so it's pretty seamless.
 
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In the current version (not uploaded yet) I put in some environmental stuff, like stumbling over rubble (avoid with reflex save or be knocked down a moment), animals (some peaceful) hiding in places and a heavy-lidded container that needs a strength check to open. Decorating the place also needs some work I think, but I'm pretty much done with this tiny module I think.

I was thinking about a larger story though, where this would be a small part of the main story, a la Bioware's "starmap" system where you can get some plot foozles in any order you want. Maybe use the priest's monastery as the base and he sends you off/follows you around while you deal with the various missions.
 
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Uploaded new version 0.7, this should be pretty much the final version for this tiny module. The next step would be thinking of making this a larger adventure with multiple areas and a hub etc.
 
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So, I've been thinking a bit about making this whole thing bigger and turning it into a more varied quest rather than just a kill-everything and/or hunt-the-foozle micro-adventure.

I'd like this to remain strictly level 1, where afterwards you at most reach level 2 or so, so all the encounters will be very low level, simple "classic" stuff like spiders and goblins and such.

Currently I'm staying with the "abandoned temple of a dead god" theme, but I was wondering what could be in there. One idea was that such a structure is unlikely to stay unoccupied just because of the shelter it provides against the elements, so maybe a small band of goblins has taken residence in there. To make things interesting, there's the temple cellars which has an intelligent undead (low level, so likely a ghoul or something) lurking in it. The goblins stay on the top level(s) and never venture downstairs for fear of the undead(s). Upstairs has been scoured for valuables and it's all in the possession of the goblins, maybe apart from a couple of small things that are too hard to get to, or too well hidden from their prying greedy eyes. Downstairs is pretty un-plundered, but there's the mentioned undead around. The quest objective is to either kill everything in the temple, or get the most valuable thing(s) out of the cellars.

I'd like to allow different approaches to accomplish this, some ideas are:
- the "warrior" approach involves ambushing and murdering everything there is, and leave the temple a graveyard
- the "thief" approach is to sneak around, avoiding traps and getting the target item out of the temple without anyone noticing
- the "diplomat" approach involves talking to the goblin chief and/or the undead "leader" to work out some way of providing one or the other with something they want in exchange for the item, which is useless to them in itself (this might involve some sneaking and killing in itself though)

It's all very vague still, these are some preliminary ideas.
 
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I thought I'd make the "quest hub" first. This would be a monastery where the priest guy gives you the missions and there's some stores:
NWN2_SS_041711_225545.jpg


Some random ideas I considered:

- some beginner quests right in the hub area (but probably not the "rats in the inn cellar" one unless I can think of a good twist for it ;) )

- crafting: I thought I'd add ingots and molds for the basic items just so that the crafting skills really are useful. I was planning to make large metal weapons (longswords, greatswords etc.) be rare and expensive (could even be a beginner quest, diplomatize the smith to part with his heirloom longsword or something), while part-wood or all-wood weapons would be comparatively cheaper.

- environmental effects: "can't run in waist-high water", maybe "vaulting over walls" somehow, "slippery floors" that can cause you slide and in the worst case to fall over a precipice.

- NPC companions: I'd like to add at least a standard "tank" type that can be picked up right at the hub, that way I can balance the encounters assuming that the "party" isn't just a single low-level squishie type who dies at the drop of a hat. Possibly a female dwarf, because hey who doesn't like dwarves and I can't remember meeting a female one as a companion.

- crafting 2: something like the flail of ages from BG where you upgrade a weapon over time by finding additional parts. Possibly some choices here where you can have either one effect or another, but not both.
 
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Okay, I'd like your opinion on this game mechanic:

"Searching containers"
- this can be a corpse with a ruby hidden in his boots or a just a pile of paper on the ground where only one document is valuable.
- any party member can attempt to find the valuable thing using his Search skill (roll 1d20 + search bonus vs DC whatever, higher or same wins); search is triggered automatically when the object is clicked as if you want to access its inventory
- if the attempt works, the item is gained, problem gone
- if the attempt *fails*, the search may not be attempted again for 1 minute real-time (even by someone else)

Simple enough, I guess?
 
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Is there a point to that from gameplay perspective? Is time important enough that choosing between loot throughly or quickly matters?

Freelance Henchman said:
- some beginner quests right in the hub area (but probably not the "rats in the inn cellar" one unless I can think of a good twist for it ;)

How about "rats in my anus"? You would enter the anus through a magical portal :troll:
 
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villain of the story said:
Is there a point to that from gameplay perspective? Is time important enough that choosing between loot throughly or quickly matters?

The only reason I want this is in really is to reward characters with a good Search skill. That said, I got to admit I'm not sure how to "balance" this so the skill is somewhere between absolutely vital and completely irrelevant. The timed thing was an attempt to allow retrying really bad rolls in a "fair" way, but this might not be the best way (since real time doesn't really play into this much, or isn't really planned to be). If the DC doesn't change, this just means the player can click the thing until it works, which seems to trivialize the skill. Of course I could just disallow re-rolling totally, but that seems somewhat frustrating and invites just reloading over and over in the worst case. In the first design, I actually just flatly checked for the skill bonus and didn't roll at all, so anyone who does not have the minimum required ranks + bonus simply can't find anything, but that seemed too far on the harsh side really.
 

SkepticsClaw

Potential Fire Hazard
Joined
Dec 15, 2010
Messages
169
I actually much prefer the flat check, as it prevents save-scumming exploits. It also prevents the concept of a 'bad roll', a rage-inducing thing that is irrelevant as any player afflicted by bad luck will simply retry or, if this is not possible, reload the game. With a flat check, you can either get the item or you can't, and the only way to come back and retrieve it is to increase your search skill at the expense of other skills. Enforce character progression choices! For great justice!

If there is any loophole at all then metagamey types will grind and grind in order to get the maximum value out of the game. Depends if you care about that really.
 

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