Recommend me something!

[Parabalus]

...

Clueless people talking shit about AoD guru Jason Liang when he's right about bolas. They exist only to cheese 1v1 encounters and the game would be better off without them. They are also bugged and enemies retain 0 defense the turn AFTER they stand up. If all enemies who used nets against you used bolas you'd see how stupid the mechanic is.

Okay, I'd be interested in a full list if you discover more. I did a loremaster run that relied on bolas to cheese past combat once and only scrounged up so many, although I didn't look that hard. I got two from the merchant outside of the inn in Teron, two from the arena vendor, and two from a Merchant's District vendor in Maadoran. Do any Forty Thieves vendors, like the barkeep in Teron or a Temple District merchant sell them (I know you can get in without being a thief, but that optional 8? person fight isn't one that's going to work well relying only on bolas)?

In any case, I dunno that even 14 available makes them a game-breaking inclusion. The real secret to using bolas well seems to be aiming exclusively for the neck and save/loading. And taking save/loading into account doesn't seem to be a fair way of judging a mechanic.

In Teron you can also get 2+2 (also liquid fire) from Tavern as thief, weapon merchant left of Linos has 2. There are also 4 nets on each merchant with bolas.

To me, AoD one of the best RPGs I've every played; and DR one of the better combat games around. I've tried the Blackguard Series, Serpent in the Staglands, the Divinity series, the Shadowrun series; which are all great but didn't wow me to the same degree as AoD.

Please help!

You might wanna check out The Banner Saga, it's bit closer to DR than to AoD but the turn based combat is just as hard, if not more, if you don't accept failure.

 

[Skittles]

Clueless people talking shit about AoD guru Jason Liang when he's right about bolas. They exist only to cheese 1v1 encounters and the game would be better off without them. They are also bugged and enemies retain 0 defense the turn AFTER they stand up. If all enemies who used nets against you used bolas you'd see how stupid the mechanic is.

You missed the point: nobody's saying bolas are a great addition to the game. They're saying that the existence of bolas doesn't make the game's combat horseshit. You know, this:

You guys do realize that AoD's combat is shit? I can't speak for Dungeon Rats, haven't played it.

But 85% of AoD's fights get crushed by bola spam.

Bolas are cheesy, but 85% only applies if you're picking your fights. If you use bolas with a non-combat character, you cannot complete any significant portion of the game's combat encounters--you can cheese through some 1v1s but you will never complete the IG or AG lines, you will never become arena master, you will never beat the demons. Even in his examples he's talking about using bolas to make combat easier for a combat oriented character. Complain about bolas until you're blue in the face, but they aren't a substitute for a proper combat build.

 

[valcik]

They are also bugged and enemies retain 0 defense the turn AFTER they stand up.

This goes both ways, the player characters stays defenseless for two turns in a row too. Not sure if bug or featcha.

 

[Jazz_]

Expeditions:Conquistador

 

[Lurker King]

Your counter-bola crusade is lame of course.

He is only butthurted that I shit in Shadowrun everytime I have the chance.

This goes both ways, the player characters stays defenseless for two turns in a row too. Not sure if bug or featcha.

That's obvious, and you are outnumbered in most fights, you have to consider the viability of hybrid builds, etc. Idiots consider the item isolated from all the variables in which is balanced. That's a stupid and superficial way of analysing things.

You might wanna check out The Banner Saga, it's bit closer to DR than to AoD but the turn based combat is just as hard, if not more, if you don't accept failure.

I just finished Banner Saga the other day. Don't lie. The combat is cool, but is easier than AoD and you are restricted by the story because you can't make your own builds, etc.

 

[Jason Liang]

Ok so I found 3 bolas in Teron- Inn merchant has 2 and MG merchant has 1. I thought Thief guild or Shorty in IG sold them, but maybe I'm just remembering nets. Still a ton of them in Maadoran, you don't have to be *that* judicious with their use.

Even if you run out of bolas, you can still use nets, and you can completely spam nets; nets are not *as* cheesy but they still destroy dodgers.

I know that the design is meant to reflect how powerful nets and bolas were in real military history, but it doesn't make sense for bolas to be unffected by dodge/block when you can dodge crossbow bolts. Nets make more sense since it's pretty hard to avoid a large net, but bolas shouldn't have killer accuracy especially at maximum range. And bola choke is just ridiculous from realism.

 

[Lurker King]

And if you need bolas for ALL the fights, then that's just pathetic. Use them judiciously. AoD's combat is shitty since any character can use this autokill attack if you come across a remotely challenging fight.

I didn't say you need them. I said that it would broke the combat system if you could use it to win every fight despite other variables. Of course, things don't work that way. You need the right kind of build, you can't use two-hand weapons or heavy armors, you also need to consider that enemies can spam bombs and nets on you, etc. It's far from being a game breaking item. Either you master the combat system, and in that case you don't need bolas, but you can use them from time to time because is fun, or you didn't master the combat system, but in this case you are fucked with or without bolas. Bolas are there just to add more variety to the combat system. They don't break anything.

AoD isn't a bad rpg but saying that its combat is god-tier or better than Shadowrun's makes me barf.

And by the way, the Shadowrun series has some of the worst and shallow games in the history of cRPGs. You don't have them on iPhones for nothing. They are horrible. Only a deluded person would enjoy them.

 

[Jason Liang]

Bolas are cheesy, but 85% only applies if you're picking your fights. If you use bolas with a non-combat character, you cannot complete any significant portion of the game's combat encounters

disgree

--you can cheese through some 1v1s but you will never complete the IG or AG lines,

disagree, you get ridiculous combat training on both lines, more than enough to handle the combat from the missions (and the training makes all the side mission fights easier too)

you will never become arena master,

disagree, Al Sahir is one of the best examples (the other being Hazma) of a fight that you *easily* cheese with bola choke.

you will never beat the demons.

as stated many times, you cheese demons with liquid fire instead. Which actually does seem like an exploit to me, but that's how 70% of builds kill the demons in combat anyway. When I did demons, I kited them with a longbow. It takes a while, but you heal, they don't.

Even in his examples he's talking about using bolas to make combat easier for a combat oriented character. Complain about bolas until you're blue in the face, but they aren't a substitute for a proper combat build.

And I'm only bringing up bolas as the most flagrant example.

- alchemy? OP
- dodge? OP. Even block is OP, and dodge is like 50% better than block
- longbows? OP
- knockdown? OP
- Shield Bash? OP
- The game has like 8 *generic* weapons that are busted (longbow, shadhavar, scimitar, sledgehammer, spiked club, skeggox, shamshir, heavy crossbow, even arguably hand crossbow)
- That's not even counting the busted unique weapons and armor like Bolter and Power Armor

If your enemies in this game spammed bombs, poison, stims and liquid fire, had longbows, hand crossbows and heavy crossbows, and constantly targetted you with knockdown and shield bash... yeah, enjoy your proper combat build. Hope you have a nice helmet. Let's talk about how great AoD's combat is after.

AoD has well designed combat encounters, but only if you bring a knife to the fight (figurative and literal). Use any of the OP mechanics and most of the fights fall apart.

Last week I spent about an hour trying to beat the Barbari arena fight with a 1 bow Assassin hybrid using fair tactics. Then I was like, "well, this is fun, but I have other stuff to do," so I threw the bomb from the Aurelian mine at them and crushed them.

What triggers me is when I read posts like "My 10 spear/ 10 dodge/ 10 alchemy spear/ poison IG build with Kadmos' Spear is so OP." Like, have you ever tried-
2 AP shield bash
3 AP hand xbow to the throat
3 AP hand xbow to the throat
3 AP hand xbow to the throat
?

And this isn't even a criticism of the fact that AoD's combat doesn't have basic combat systems like cover mechanics. Indeed, your enemies can even shoot you through solid walls.

 

[Skittles]

Bolas are cheesy, but 85% only applies if you're picking your fights. If you use bolas with a non-combat character, you cannot complete any significant portion of the game's combat encounters

disgree

--you can cheese through some 1v1s but you will never complete the IG or AG lines,

disagree, you get ridiculous combat training on both lines, more than enough to handle the combat from the missions (and the training makes all the side mission fights easier too)

Bro, I like your AoD contributions a lot, but you're doubling down on an indefensible position.

Mercenary start to IG, non-combat build using bolas to cheese. Three bolas available in Teron. Possible combat encounters? Assassin, muggers, Cassius, Livia & co., random gang, squatters, Militades' thugs, Militades' mark & entourage, outpost fight, raider encampment and palace infiltration fight are all off the table. Let's focus on IG quests only: raid the caravan, fight the raid's other survivors, and attacking the tower are non-optional combat encounters. I'll assume you can talk your way out of the fight at the palace. You will not be able to complete the majority of combat encounters without a combat build. With three bolas, you will not even be able to complete the three required combat segments for the IG unless you abuse save load so that your buddies miraculously take care of most of the enemies in the attack on the caravan. Unless you have an actual combat build.

you will never become arena master,

disagree, Al Sahir is one of the best examples (the other being Hazma) of a fight that you *easily* cheese with bola choke.

Except there are more arena combatants than there are bolas in the game even with your high estimate. And the Triarii or the pair of Ordu will fuck you faster than you can abuse bolas. Unless you have an actual combat build.

you will never beat the demons.

as stated many times, you cheese demons with liquid fire instead. Which actually does seem like an exploit to me, but that's how 70% of builds kill the demons in combat anyway. When I did demons, I kited them with a longbow. It takes a while, but you heal, they don't.

You mean you had to use a strategy other than bola spam in order to complete these fights? That's only exactly what I was talking about.

Even in his examples he's talking about using bolas to make combat easier for a combat oriented character. Complain about bolas until you're blue in the face, but they aren't a substitute for a proper combat build.

And I'm only bringing up bolas as the most flagrant example.

- alchemy? OP
- dodge? OP. Even block is OP, and dodge is like 50% better than block
- longbows? OP
- knockdown? OP
- Shield Bash? OP
- The game has like 8 *generic* weapons that are busted (longbow, shadhavar, scimitar, sledgehammer, spiked club, skeggox, shamshir, heavy crossbow, even arguably hand crossbow)
- That's not even counting the busted unique weapons and armor like Bolter and Power Armor

If your enemies in this game spammed bombs, poison, stims and liquid fire, had longbows, hand crossbows and heavy crossbows, and constantly targetted you with knockdown and shield bash... yeah, enjoy your proper combat build. Hope you have a nice helmet. Let's talk about how great AoD's combat is after.

It's almost like there are a high number of approaches to combat can be viable if you build a character around them and the player grows to understand how to use them most effectively. Fancy that. And it's funny that none of those one tactics completely outclasses all others in every situation.

AoD has well designed combat encounters, but only if you bring a knife to the fight (figurative and literal). Use any of the OP mechanics and most of the fights fall apart.

Last week I spent about an hour trying to beat the Barbari arena fight with a 1 bow Assassin hybrid using fair tactics. Then I was like, "well, this is fun, but I have other stuff to do," so I threw the bomb from the Aurelian mine at them and crushed them.

But I thought bolas are all you need.

What triggers me is when I read posts like "My 10 spear/ 10 dodge/ 10 alchemy spear/ poison IG build with Kadmos' Spear is so OP." Like, have you ever tried-
2 AP shield bash
3 AP hand xbow to the throat
3 AP hand xbow to the throat
3 AP hand xbow to the throat
?

And this isn't even a criticism of the fact that AoD's combat doesn't have basic combat systems like cover mechanics. Indeed, your enemies can even shoot you through solid walls.

But you have to hit with the shield bash and you have to deal with multiple enemies. Almost all of your examples hand wave away the fact that you frequently fight outnumbered in this game, which is bizarre.

Also, there are cover mechanics, check your shit. There are places where there are bugs, like that one wall in Aemolas' village. If you don't believe me, draw the thugs blocking access to the Temple District into a house to fight and see how their archers/throwing weapons fighters behave.

 

[Jason Liang]

Bro, I like your AoD contributions a lot, but you're doubling down on an indefensible position.

Mercenary start to IG, non-combat build using bolas to cheese. Three bolas available in Teron. Possible combat encounters? Assassin, muggers, Cassius, Livia & co., random gang, squatters, Militades' thugs, Militades' mark & entourage, outpost fight, raider encampment and palace infiltration fight are all off the table.

You can beat all these fights with just a longbow, heavy xbow and hand xbows (and 1 bow/xbow skill). It would be wasting a bola to use them in any of these fights. I just did all of them last week and posted pictures in the other thread. The only one I didn't do is the infiltration fight, and that one is the *easiest* with longbow since the guard is a blocker and doesn't wear a helmet.

Let's focus on IG quests only: raid the caravan,

Which I just did to check if Shorty had bolas. The game gives you 3 nets for this since it's teaching you to use them. Your job is to throw nets in this fight, which again, takes no skill. Any character can do this.

fight the raid's other survivors,

So easy, since they both start out badly wounded, so they each take at most 2 hits to kill. One of them doesn't wear a helmet and the other doesn't seem to have any block skill. AND you can get them to fight each other instead of going after you.

and attacking the tower are non-optional combat encounters.

The only way to lose here is if you get sniped. All you need to do is stay out of danger. Your teammates make short work of Antidas' guards.

I'll assume you can talk your way out of the fight at the palace.

Or you can cs Antidas right off the bat and net Dellar. Don't need to use bolas for this either.

The only fight that I would use bolas in Teron is killing the Assassin's guild, and if you use Carrinas' potion to cs Neleos and Fulvio you can beat this with a net instead of bolas.

You would probably need to use a bola if you want to kill the Thief's guild, but most paths don't have access to that fight.

Except there are more arena combatants than there are bolas in the game even with your high estimate. And the Triarii or the pair of Ordu will fuck you faster than you can abuse bolas. Unless you have an actual combat build.

I didn't have to use a bola for the Ordu (although I did use a net). I don't plan to use bola on the Triarii either, if I remember correctly from my last bow playthrough, liquid fire is all you need here. Again, I have pictures in the other thread. 1 bow skill, 5 dodge, not a combat build. I spent 48 generic skill points to increase dodge and cs (the rest are all combat skill points), but that's only because I spent 30 points going for max cs from Agatai's training. I could have easily just taken Agatai's training for 15 points instead.

And I'm only bringing up bolas as the most flagrant example.

- alchemy? OP
- dodge? OP. Even block is OP, and dodge is like 50% better than block
- longbows? OP
- knockdown? OP
- Shield Bash? OP
- The game has like 8 *generic* weapons that are busted (longbow, shadhavar, scimitar, sledgehammer, spiked club, skeggox, shamshir, heavy crossbow, even arguably hand crossbow)
- That's not even counting the busted unique weapons and armor like Bolter and Power Armor

If your enemies in this game spammed bombs, poison, stims and liquid fire, had longbows, hand crossbows and heavy crossbows, and constantly targetted you with knockdown and shield bash... yeah, enjoy your proper combat build. Hope you have a nice helmet. Let's talk about how great AoD's combat is after.

It's almost like there are a high number of approaches to combat can be viable if you build a character around them and the player grows to understand how to use them most effectively. Fancy that. And it's funny that none of those one tactics completely outclasses all others in every situation.

Actually it's pretty much the same broken strategy. Knockdown and choke are broken, since any character can use these with no combat skill investment (since any character can toss bombs, shield bash, bola choke or fire a heavy xbow) and being knocked down or choked copletely negates any defense other than having a helmet.

Bolas just aggravate the problem with knockdown even more since a character with 1 throwing skill should not have a 70% chance (or whatever it is) of bola-choking someone with 10 dodge or block, and yet they do. And the choked guy stays choked for 3 turns.

Every IG/ AG/ TG/ HD/ HA mook should be carrying 2 bolas and 2 nets. Alchemy I can understand being rare but if this game was logical at all bolas and nets would be everwhere.

But you have to hit with the shield bash and you have to deal with multiple enemies. Almost all of your examples hand wave away the fact that you frequently fight outnumbered in this game, which is bizarre.

Sure, often the fights are 1v2 or 1v3, even 1v5, but the only fight that I remember where it's just you and you're vastly outnumbered are the Monastery village fights. Every other fight you get allies, like the Pass.

But the 1v2, 1v3, 1v4 and 1v5 fights are balanced and well-designed. That's AoD's strength. The problem is you use a bola or a bomb to kill the hardest enemy, and now the fight is ridiculously easy.

For example, the Ordu arena fight, once you kill the Ordu swordsman, the Ordu archer is a pushover.

Even a fight that's supposed to be near-impossible to win, like Gaelius' 5 praetors, is stupidly easy if you cheese it.

Also, there are cover mechanics, check your shit. There are places where there are bugs, like that one wall in Aemolas' village. If you don't believe me, draw the thugs blocking access to the Temple District into a house to fight and see how their archers/throwing weapons fighters behave.

Maybe this got patched, but the fights in the Slum district used to be clear examples of enemies shooting you through solid walls.

 

[Jason Liang]

 

[newageofpower]

How to edit OP? I played JA2 1.13 for like a bajillion hours, was once mildly active on the Bear's Pit forums.

I played Shadowrun (the entire series) and Underrail. While they both had good (in fact, I would rate Underrail's combat excellent, and that's before the zany Fallout-esque Feat tree comes into play), neither combat system measured up to Jagged Alliance 2. I don't think anything does or will negative match JA2's combat in the near future.

I personally would rate AoD's combat engine as significantly superior to Shadowrun - while AoD doesn't have terrain/cover, it's nuances are far more intricate and powerful than those in Shadowrun. Yes, freaking bombs, nets, and goddamn bolas are cheesy, but they aren't super common either, and the rest of the combat engine is quite beautiful.

Dragon Age was enjoyable, but I didn't like Fallout 3. Guess I might try New Vegas, and I'll definitely revisit Underrail whenever the DLC comes out. I was once a huuugee Jeff Vogel fan, but nowadays I don't feel the desire to play his games at all. I've played + enjoyed Arcanum and Fallout in the past, but... I tried recently and I just couldn't. I guess I got spoiled by the graphics of newer games. I tried Prelude to Darkness after Vincent (Vault Dweller, I think?) raved about it, but it wouldn't run on my machine, and I suspect the graphics would leave me unmotivated to play.

Overall I prefer turn based tactical games with strong RPG mechanics; I must have beaten Dungeon Rats five times already - the few problems with the AoD/DR combat system and complete lack of story/freedom hasn't stopped me.

 

[Skittles]

Jason Liang So from the above and the other thread: bolas don't figure into 90% of your strategies, other tactics accomplish similar effects, you have to vary tactics based on item availability, enemy numbers and equipment, and scenario, you rely on save/loading extensively, other players can't replicate your results and you have 80SP invested in combat skills at the end of Teron for your putative non-combat build.


...Right.

Edit: P.S. Bolas aren't guaranteed 3 rounds. It's variable.

 

[Jason Liang]

Jason Liang So from the above and the other thread: bolas don't figure into 90% of your strategies,

Since I'm not interested in doing a playthrough with bola spam. My primary goal was to show how OP longbow is. I also like to challenge myself and to figure out which fights can be completed "fairly" (without using cheese like bombs, bolas and nets) with a minimum combat skill hybrid character, or which consumeables are needed for which fights. I'm keeping track of how much combat skill points I'm getting in this run to figure out what a true minimum combat hybrid build would need to beat the game with 95% of the fights.

But the point is you could use bola spam, and if you want, bombs, liquid fire, Bolter, Power Armor, Shield Bash, etc... to easily beat 95% of the fights in the game (maybe all of them) if you wanted. I left bow at 1 because I want a challenge (and also I might go with dagger this time since I've already beaten all the fights with both bow assassin and xbow assassin), but you could easily pump bow to 3 or 4 or pump dodge even higher instead of cs.

other tactics accomplish similar effects, you have to vary tactics based on item availability, enemy numbers and equipment, and scenario, you rely on save/loading extensively,

Not really. It's not an ironman run but I don't reload until I get a knockdown with heavy xbow or anything exploitive like that, even though game mechanics completely allow it.

other players can't replicate your results

Sure they could. The AI is very deterministic. If you used the same strategies I use, you could definitely replicate my results, since I can replicate my results. Like the Barbari arena fight, it's not like I "got lucky" with 1 in 100 rolls and needed several criticals in a row. I can beat that fight or come close to beating that fight more than 50% of the time. With my character's cs skill, I consistently critical 1-2 times every fight. It doesn't really matter too much when I get those criticals. Again, combat isn't actually that random in this game. I've never had a fight where I've gotten like 5 criticals or something.

And part of the OP of bola is you take random chance out of the equation since you have 100% hit rate on choking and knocked down enemies. So if you used bola spam in your strategy, you can replicate these fights even more consistently.

and you have 80SP invested in combat skills at the end of Teron for your putative non-combat build.

I began with 30 combat skill points at character creation and gained 15 combat skill points from fights. Obviously even a hybrid character should use their combat skill points, and besides Dodge is more of a "survival" skill than a combat skill.

I have 6 ranks in cs only because I wanted to get +10 cs from Agatai's training. To do that you need to increase cs to 6. CS to 6 doesn't actually matter to whether if a build can or can't beat a fight. So I could have replicated this Teron run with only spending 25 combat skill points to raise Dodge to 4. As for cs, if I then cared to raise cs, Agatai's training gives you +15 sp in cs, raising it to 3 for free. You have 5 combat skill points left over from character creation, so you can use that and 5 sp gained from fights to raise your cs to 4. If you truly wanted to min/ max, you can start Mercenary instead of Assassin, you begin with 2 combat skill points and 3 body count from the Merc prelude. You can then convert the extra body count into + 2 civil skill points from the Palace infiltration by lockpicking the gate and hiding from the last guard instead of csing them.

Trust me, if all the Teron fights can be done with 4 dodge/ 6 cs/ 4 craft/ 2 alchemy, they can also be done with 4 dodge/ 4 cs/ 4 craft/ 2 alchemy. +30 ish cs is nothing, especially if you put those extra points to raise crafting to 6 or alchemy, which you need for Saross in act 2 anyway. And you could make all the fights even easier and cheesier by increasing bow to 3 or 4 or dodge to 5 instead of raising cs.

The point is, this is an extremely minimal combat hybrid build, not a combat build. 5/9/4/8/8/7 is hybrid, not combat. A combat build would be like 9/8/6/8/6/4 or something and would spend most of the 120 generic skill points you get in act 1 on raising primary combat skills to 6/6, not 1/4.

...Right.

Edit: P.S. Bolas aren't guaranteed 3 rounds. It's variable.

True but the damage you can do in 2 rounds with hand xbow and longbow to the face is enough to put down most enemies.

 

[Jason Liang]

Just to show you that any player can use my tactics to beat the fights in AoD with a non-combat build, without having to "rely on save/loading extensively", let me walk you guys through the Barbari arena fight. I just redid the fight, taking pictures. I guess I was a little lucky and beat it first time through, but I hope you can see how this seemingly "impossible" fight for a non-combat build can be beaten very consistently.

Barbari Arena Walkthrough

I picked the Barbari fight because it's actually a very challenging fight. I'm sure that many players if they tried this fight with no weapon skills and 5 dodge would think it's impossible. But actually with strategy and tactics you have about a 50/50 chance to beat this fight, more depending on which level of cheese you're willing to use.

The first key trick to this fight is to realize that the Barbari swordsman is far more dangerous than the other two. He has 5 damage poison on his sword; if it connects and/or we get cut, we're pretty much toast. So we have to target him first and if possible minimize the swings he gets to take against us. The middle Barbari, the axeman, is also dangerous (axe-dodge good), and dodges our arrows often, so we also have to target him as well. But the third Barbari, with the club, we can ignore until the other two are dead. Between our dodge and our armor, if we kill the first two with reasonable health we should be able to kill the 3rd Barbari without much problem barring he doesn't ownz us with a critical.

Turn 1

So we start off by shooting the swordsman with our heavy xbow. It doesn't knock him down, but that's ok, we just want him to start dying. Even if we missed with the crossbow, we can try again next turn with our far more accurate longbow, but this outcome, while not exceptionally lucky, is perfectly suitable.

Note I also messed up a few times, like I should be using Aimed: Torso instead of regular attack and I also messed up a bit with the bomb, but it didn't matter to the outcome.

2 AP regular attack (xbow) to the swordsman (hit)
2 AP remove xbow
2 AP equip longbow
4 AP take 2 steps directly back

We want to retreat directly back since the axeman's shadhavar can hit corners; this way we will end put taking 1 less attack of opportunity from him.

Turn 2

Now with our longbow, we want to start putting damage on the axeman. Our chance of hitting him even with fast attack is about 50%, so much as we'd like to kill the swordsman quickly, we have to take this opportunity to take the axeman down.

We get a crit, very nice! It's not a great crit, but why complain? A hit is a hit.

6 AP fast attack (longbow) to the axeman
4 AP take 2 steps directly back

Turn 3

We try to hit the Axeman again with our Fast attack; this time it misses. Unfortunate, but it's not a disaster. I'd much rather miss the 3rd attack than the first two. Why target the Axeman instead of the Swordsman? While the swordsman is more dangerous, a fast attack is more likely to deal good damage to the axeman, provided that it hits. A fast attack with the longbow to the swordsman sometimes deals very little damage (0-3) but we still need damage on the Axeman.

Now we make our special tactical move. Instead of moving directly back, we move diagonally back away from the swordsman, towards the club Barbari. This is key since the order the Barbari moves is Axeman first, Swordsman second and Club third. By moving diagonally exactly one space (and we could have done this turn 2 instead if we needed to target the swordsman on turn 3), what happens is the Axeman first moves forward. Now the swordsman must move around the axeman, which prevents him exactly from being able to swing at us. This allows us to take one less swing from the Swordsman which could be instantly fatal.

The Barbari will *always* move like this, which is why it's important to use the optimal tactics. You must following these exact steps, or else you'll dramatically decrease your chance of winning this fight.

6 AP fast attack (longbow) on Sword
4 AP move diagonally towards Club

Turn 4

The Barbari move exactly like they always do and we're now in this formation, so far we've only taken 1 swing and no damage. Now we come to the key turn of the battle, since if we try to move the Sword will get an attack of opportunity on us which could end up fatal. So here is where we use the bomb we got from the Aurelian mine. This is the best strategy; we could do other strategies but this gives us the optimal chance to win the battle. We could move, shoot the Swordsman and hope he misses, but we'd have to start getting very lucky for that to work.

Boom! The bomb does some nice damage, but more importantly it knocks them down so hopefully I can finish them off with my hand xbows. Now I messed up here since I should have (I think) put the bomb in my bag instead of a 2nd crossbow; I think that's what I did last time and it would have allowed me to have 2 AP to move or equip my longbow after taking the xbow shot, or I could have seen if I need to take 2 body shots instead of a arterial strike; but luckily this wasn't a fatal error.

Our arterial strike deals a very nice 11 damage to the Swordsman but it doesn't kill him; he'll probably need another hit to die; the poison wont be enough. So that's a bit unfortunate, we'll have to get a little lucky next turn to not die. In hindsight I should have probably tried 2 body shots with the xbows, which would have probably killed him. O well. Let's see what happens.

2 AP remove longbow
1 AP equip bomb
3 AP throw bomb
3 AP arterial strike (hand xbow) to Sword

Update: In hindsight, the optimal strategy would have been to remove our longbow on turn 3, so that our actions could be

turn 3
2 AP remove longbow
2 AP regular attack (hand xbow)
2 AP reload hand xbow
4 AP move diagonally

turn 4
1 AP equip bomb
3 AP throw bomb
3 AP arterial strike
3 AP arterial strike

Turn 5

So we got dinked for 9 painful damage, but at least we didn't get nicked with poison so we still have a chance. With our longbow, we can either move and shoot the swordsman, or shoot the Axeman first and then see what happens. I decide to shoot the Axeman since again, we're using fast shot which is more effective on the Axeman than the swordsman. We'll just have to pray for a little luck on the Swordsman.

Instead, we get quite lucky and our attack does enough damage to put the Axeman down.

Now we move. It will trigger attacks of oppurtunity, but the Swordsman is only using a light Kopesh, and his fast attack has very little chance of penetrating our Steel Lorica armor. Our armor starts 9 DR while his Kopesh's swift attack does at most 10 or 11 damage. Still we don't want to give him too many shots at a crit or a fatal scratch.

Scratch!

2 AP equip longbow
6 AP fast attack (longbow) on the Axe
2 AP move 1 step away

Turn 6

Now I want to point this out: even were we not so lucky and all three Barbari were still alive, this formation still gives us the best chance of winning by reducing the number of attacks we face. What would of happened if the Axe were alive, is he would have acted first and attacked us. Then, the Sword acts second and steps in front of the Club to make his attack. Finally, when the Club acts, he can't attack us since the Sword is blocking him, so he has to waste his turn going around the Sword and the Axe. This is why precise movement is crucial.

So now we have to fiinish off the Sword. We take a step- his AoO fast attack bounces off our armor again- and shoot him in the gut:

As you can see, the fast attack doesn't do much damage- I'd have used a stronger attack but we got dinged on the arm by the Club and he's so close that even a few points will probably put him down.

2 AP move 1 step away
6 AP fast attack (longbow) to the Sword
2 AP move 1 step away

Turn 7

And we're right, down the Sword goes on his turn by poison. The Club takes a good chunk of our life total, but now that he's by himself the odds are against him.

At this point I don't really even need to continue... now that we've reduced the fight down to just the Club, we will win this fight unless he crits us. Longbow owns 1v1 against melee, especially against normal blockers. Even if I end up getting killed this time, I hope you can see how with the right strategy we can turn a fight that seemed impossible into one that we'll beat 80% of the time. But let's see what happens.

I forget to shoot him in the head and hit him with a fast attack instead. Head shots are nearly always the best way to kill blockers, and since we don't want to give him many chances of critting us, we're in go for the kill mode. Still, we tag him with poison.

2 AP move one step away
6 AP fast attack (longbow) to the Club
2 AP move one step away

Turn 8

Head shot gets blocked and he dinks 3 damage off me. We can't do this all day but we can try again.

2 AP move back 1 step
8 AP aimed: head (longbow)

Turn 9

FUUUCK. And suddenly the crowd quiets as Steph goes cold. I get dinked for 2 more damage.

2 AP move back one step
8 AP aimed: head (longbow)

Turn 10

It's not a disaster since we dodged his attack, so the turn was a wash. Well, I guess let's fast attack to get poison on him again:

2 AP move back 1 step
6 AP fast attack (longbow)
2 AP move back 1 step

Turn 11

FUCK. His swift attack connects for 5. Now we're in sudden death and wishing we hadn't gone for those head shots. His next hit is going to kill us so now we have to stop playing games. Fast attack at least will get us closer, and maybe it'll crit? It has to connect to crit...

2 AP move back to steps
6 AP fast attack (longbow)
2 AP move back to steps

Turn 12

Just a normal hit, not a crit but...

We dodge! ALMOST DEAD, fuck I wish I could take those head shots back, he'd be dead already...

WE MOVE. WE SHOOT

GAME OVER

Time to take a selfie

Live the dream.

 

[Skittles]

I picked the Barbari fight because it's actually a very challenging fight. I'm sure that many players if they tried this fight with no weapon skills and 5 dodge would think it's impossible. But actually with strategy and tactics you have about a 50/50 chance to beat this fight, more depending on which level of cheese you're willing to use.

1. This is an easy fight, even for a hybrid build, unless you're handicapping yourself. 50/50 are bad odds. They're okay for the first couple of fights in the game for mercs., but assuming you are correct, this is a sub-optimal strategy, not "OP GAME BREAKING" like you claim in

- alchemy? OP
- dodge? OP. Even block is OP, and dodge is like 50% better than block
- longbows? OP
- knockdown? OP
- Shield Bash? OP

...even when you're employing multiple of the "OP" strategies. (Also, I reiterate: if you list nearly every goddamned combat item/related skill in the game as "OP," then nothing is really OP; you're just complaining that combat is too easy for combat builds.)

2. In the bolded text. You had to develop strategies to allow yourself to cheese through it. Just because a 1,000-hours-dedicated, self-handicapping autist can find degenerate combat strategies to get through combat does not make that combat system shit. X-Com's combat is shit because once you develop a good laser cannon production stream, you can beat every combat encounter by sending in waves of suicide bomber rookies.

3. You have claimed the combat is shit because:
a. You can beat 85% of the fights with bola spam: False. Not enough bolas in the game for starters.
b. A non-combat character can use your array of strategies to cheese their way through the combat: Unproven. You have only shown examples of hybrid characters doing this and in every case have shown suggested strategies where ordinary combat effectiveness was required for the "cheese" strategies to actually work. Besides that, when bati and Parabalus actually tried your bow centric builds, they found that you had exaggerated its superiority and only became effective once they'd made decent actual investments in combat skills.

4. So, again, "muh nets and bolas! muh knockdowns!" doesn't work if you can't survive combat with a high defensive skill or deal enough damage. Or if fail to hit at all with knockdowns (you do realize that you need to actually pass checks to knockdown with a shield bash or hammer, right?). Bombs & fire are limited unless you invest enough in alchemy--which makes them a strategy you have to work for. Besides that, you have to survive combat long enough. None of the weapons you've mentioned are OP on their own; they're just perhaps the optimal choice in their respective categories if you build around using them.

5. In conclusion:


.........Right.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Is there scope for a support skills(alc, craft, crit) only build?
Just curious.

 

[Skittles]

Is there scope for a support skills(alc, craft, crit) only build?
Just curious.

Qualified yes: it would mean avoiding most combat encounters if you really mean to do without any defensive skills. With some luck, you could go pretty far in the AG line with just those three and no dodge, for example, but you'd really need to avoid optional combat encounters. A dedicated alchemy user would have a rough start and then be decently flexible mid-to-late game spamming fire for defense and bombs for offense with the help of neurostim--resources and terrain become big limited factors for this build. And of course, a straight non-combat run means you could do this, easily.

But ending the game with a 100+ kill count using only those, no dodge/block and no weapon skill? You'd have to have quite a lot of patience for save/loading.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Being a Murderhobo in AoD is the most satisfying way to play the game. When I first started AoD, i was regularly assraped by a couple of alleyway thieves. It was as if the game was telling me to git gud faggot. The butthurt it caused me finally allowed me to git gud with a dodge/sledgehammer/ murderhobo build. It was glorious.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

dodge/sledgehammer/ murderhobo build.

Best build

 

[Severian Silk]

I didn't discover bolas until that late game fight in the Basil quest. Never actually used them. AoD combat is fine.

 

[Jason Liang]

1. This is an easy fight, even for a hybrid build, unless you're handicapping yourself. 50/50 are bad odds. They're okay for the first couple of fights in the game for mercs., but assuming you are correct, this is a sub-optimal strategy, not "OP GAME BREAKING" like you claim in

The odds for beating this fight with this build, if you use the correct strategy and tactics and use a bomb, is about 70%. The odds to beat it without using the bomb is about 8%. The odds to beat it with this build without optimal tactics is about 0%.

Actually, fighting the Barbari with bow 1/ dodge 5 is an example of actually good combat. Beating them with this build was actually fun and challenging. You have to use actual strategy and tactics. But to get to good combat in AoD you have to gimp yourself, since actual AoD combat is shit combat. Since you seem to think the only way to beat these fights is to roll-up a dumbfuck axe murderer, when I have just shown you that you are complete wrong and ignorant about this game.

And yet sadly you post your uninformed, elementary opinions like:

Qualified yes: it would mean avoiding most combat encounters

wrong

if you really mean to do without any defensive skills.

wrong. Many people have beaten all the hard fights with dodge 1/ block 1

With some luck, you could go pretty far in the AG line with just those three and no dodge, for example, but you'd really need to avoid optional combat encounters.

proven wrong

A dedicated alchemy user would have a rough start and then be decently flexible mid-to-late game spamming fire for defense and bombs for offense with the help of neurostim--resources and terrain become big limited factors for this build. And of course, a straight non-combat run means you could do this, easily.

But ending the game with a 100+ kill count using only those, no dodge/block and no weapon skill? You'd have to have quite a lot of patience for save/loading.

wrong.

You have no experience with these builds and you ignore other people who actually do and have shown you that it's more than possible. Why? Because this game has shit combat, which means that if you combine actual tactics with broken shit combat you can do pretty much anything against gimped, handicapped enemies who can't even use knockdown or shield bash.

You can't see that AoD has shit combat since, it's quite obvious from your posts- you enjoy shit combat. And AoD's shit combat is made for you.

"And then I got Power Armor and went murder murder murder ha ha bitches!" You got your jollies off, you got your $20/ 15 hours worth of fun. You got substitute-revenge on all those punks that wronged you in high school and all those bitches that didn't give you the time of day. Power Armor is in this game FOR PLAYERS JUST LIKE YOU. Bolas are in this game just for players like you.

If the game let you bola spam, YOU WOULD. Instead, you write that the 10 bolas you get in Teron and Maadoran aren't enough to beat the game.

So AoD has shit combat because its makers wanted players just like you to have their fun too. But don't be confused- you're playing in shit with shit.

If you do this fight with bow 6/ dodge 6, or axe 6/ dodge 6- that's shit combat. Did you actually have to use strategy? No. Tactics? No. "Where's my lewt? Fuck this shitty Barbari lewt, get me to the good lewt."

Yeah I could write up beating this fight with a 6/6 but it'd be a waste of time, since it doesn't require any real tactics or strategy. It's shit combat. Instead of showing you how to beat the Barbari with bow 1/ dodge 5, I could show you how I skull-raped Sarepedon with bola choke wearing an expensive robe but what's the point? It's shitty combat.

And if all you've seen of this game is the shitty combat, you have no idea of the actual work underneath the shit that the game makers did to make these encounters and combat math fair and balanced. Since they have to cover their work with shit because they wanted players like you, who enjoy playing in shit, to like their game.

But if you want to see the real work they did, try playing the game without the shit.

Or keep on thinking that these fights were "balanced" and playtested for 10/10/8/6/6/4 6 axe/ 8 block power armor dumbfucks.

All the ignorant shit you type in your posts proves my point that AoD has shit combat.

...even when you're employing multiple of the "OP" strategies. (Also, I reiterate: if you list nearly every goddamned combat item/related skill in the game as "OP," then nothing is really OP; you're just complaining that combat is too easy for combat builds.)

Wrong. A game does not not have shit combat just because it gives you multiple ways to dumbclick your way through this game. That the game has bolas AND bombs AND power armor doesn't mean that they aren't all just autokill buttons. It's only an illusion of choice; they are actually all just autokill buttons.

b. A non-combat character can use your array of strategies to cheese their way through the combat: Unproven. You have only shown examples of hybrid characters doing this and in every case have shown suggested strategies where ordinary combat effectiveness was required for the "cheese" strategies to actually work. Besides that, when bati and Parabalus actually tried your bow centric builds, they found that you had exaggerated its superiority and only became effective once they'd made decent actual investments in combat skills.

My claim is that longbow is the most OP generic weapon and you can beat all the hard fights in Teron and Maadoran (which is basically all the serious fights in the game) with a longbow and the right build with bow 1. I didn't say it would be easy. I said that longbow head shots are OP- they are. I didn't claim you could spam them if you don't invest in bow skill. Longbows are just as accurate as any other weapon; they aren't more accurate that you can head shot with no skill. If you take bow to 6? Yeah you can head shot all day long.

Try this Barbari fight with an axe and axe 1/ dodge 5 and see how far you get.

If you really want to post something worthwhile about this game- perhaps try playing it more. You might actually learn something true about it.

 

[Jason Liang]

I didn't discover bolas until that late game fight in the Basil quest. Never actually used them. AoD combat is fine.

If you don't know what bola choke is, of course you think AoD combat is fine. AoD combat would be fine if the game didn't have shit like bola choke.

 

[Parabalus]

Jason Liang So from the above and the other thread: bolas don't figure into 90% of your strategies, other tactics accomplish similar effects, you have to vary tactics based on item availability, enemy numbers and equipment, and scenario, you rely on save/loading extensively, other players can't replicate your results and you have 80SP invested in combat skills at the end of Teron for your putative non-combat build.


...Right.

Edit: P.S. Bolas aren't guaranteed 3 rounds. It's variable.

I think you missed my point. Bolas are basically a cheat for the player - I played through AoD several times, and I can't recall anyone who uses them except the final Basil fight vs TG enforcer. If they were more common, if every enemy who uses nets used bolas instead, you'd see just how ridiculous they are. If you hit a bola you get 100% to hit vs the arena champion for 2 rounds. AoD(and DR) is good combat wise because it is very symmetrical in terms of what enemies can do to you and you to them, bolas stick out quite a bit as a player only toy and I don't think there is any need for that.

The 3 Barbari fight is actually one of the harder ones if you have 0 DEF. I never tried without weapon skills and with defensive skills, that combination just doesn't appeal to me, but if you can win combat with 0/0, you sure can with 0/x.

 

[Jason Liang]

Forget bolas: if hammer bros could actually used knockdown on you or blockers actually use shield bash-

have fun with your axe murder bro, bro