Rank the Geneforge games.

[Forest Dweller]

So, I've had all five games in my Steam library for some time. Figured maybe I'll start playing them soonish. However, if the earlier ones are shitty, and the later ones are better, I don't want to start from the beginning, get burned out, and then potentially miss out on the later games that I might enjoy. On the other hand, if I'm likely to like all five of the games, I'd rather play them in order.

The general Codex consensus seems to be that 4 and 5 are the best. What I'd like to know is, if so, how much better are they? Enough to be worth a shot if I DON'T like 1-3? Do they improve in every way, or are there features/elements in the earlier games that are done better?

What would be nice is if anyone who has played the entire series could go through each game systematically and say what changed in each, how each successor improved upon the previous game (or didn't), as well as any potential story spoilers in later games for the earlier games.

Help me play this series properly.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

Geneforge 1 => great blend of wonder and discovery
Geneforge 2 => builds upon the lore and adds a few tricks
Geneforge 5 => the best C&C of the whole series and a great wrap up
Geneforge 4 => you play some new character classes, so it adds a worthy twist
Geneforge 3 => every faction is led by sociopaths which I can't stand, so each ending sucks

The series is chronological, so don't skip around. Play the series in order else you'll get confused on what is going on.

 

[Beastro]

I've only played up to three, but I'd recommend not by passing 1 and 2.

I could see the novelty of the first and it's build up being lost on someone who skipped to play other instalments so go with it first and appreciate fully.

Second is my favourite of those I played as it expanded nicely on the original game and its premise while providing a good wrap up for the beginning arc (IMO, it would have been a good series had it just been those two games).

Third is bad in almost every way with little good to make up for it. The story isn't engaging, the pacing is tedious and you get tired of going from island to island going through the motions hoping for more while the premise of it is annoying after the ending of the second when it feels like it didn't leave good enough alone. I tried slogging through it to finish it and move onto to the other three but left it in limbo on the last island for a few years now.

If there's one you could skip it's the third because the whole premise of that instalment is that the underlying conflict against the Shapers wasn't resolved in the second and that it's going to continue and grow. Knowing that you can avoid it completely and move onto the second arc of the series in the latter two.

 

[Johannes]

The series is chronological, so don't skip around. Play the series in order else you'll get confused on what is going on.

I don't agree. 5 was the first I played to completion and it was fine. It even made sense that my PC doesn't know the exact backstories of all recurring characters. Should be fun to play in reverse order even, so you're looking at discovering more and more of the backstory gradually.

 

[Dayyālu]

What would be nice is if anyone who has played the entire series could go through each game systematically and say what changed in each, how each successor improved upon the previous game (or didn't), as well as any potential story spoilers in later games for the earlier games.

Help me play this series properly.

First. Don't try to bruteforce all of them in a single playthrough. Mechanics evolve in each installment, but the basics are rather similar and you could get burnt out before reaching completion. Geneforge games can be played even as single games, as the basics are always introduced again in every game and the situation is often self contained. But let's see:

+ Geneforge 1: the first. From a mechanical point of view, it's the simplest one, with the most basic ruleset (but after all, you are not playing this for combat) and the less variety in summons/spells. Some encounters are not that well designed (AUGMENTED SHOLAI HUmGHHHhhhhHH) and there are some areas that are kind of unnerving. Don't try the Tombs is you don't know what you are doing. Interface is puke green. Writing is quite good, and the atmosphere is one of discovering something abandoned long ago. Factional choice is good, with many actors that you can support, I think the factions are five (three servile sects, Sholai, and *spoilers*). It's basic yet good. If you can stand the interface and some annoying combats, it's a great start.

+ Geneforge 2: Geneforge 1, expanded. Bigger map. More variety in factions, encounters and choices. It's my favourite for player freedom and background, as there is quite a big variety on playstyle (it's the first GF where Canisters become important and have a direct impact on your character). The mechanics and the summon/spell selection is not bigger than GF 1, but the encounter design and the overall writing is far more refined. It's the first GF I have finished, and I recommend it wholeheartedly.

+Geneforge 3: Vogel tried to experiment. Let's start with mechanics. More spells, item creation, two companions (adequately written, derivative but not biowarean bad). Vogel tried to implement a "hub" structure with islands (connected by fuckin boats, how I hated the boats), where you have self-contained islands that you explore and "complete". It's not quite successful, but it avoids mindlessly repeating GF1&2. This gave him a bit more materiel on which to build interesting situations, characters and quests. The downside is that the factional choice is cut down to two. It is the weakest GF, but still good. Faction leaders on the Shaper side are not *sociopaths*, you have even an happy married couple! Indeed a rare thing in an RPG

+Geneforge 4: GF 3, refined. The *hub* structure is there, but it's modified in self contained "chapters" in the, that put up a main quest to solve and let yout character roam and act. From a mechanical point of view, you get the first great expansion of classes&summons, item forging is expanded and you start not as a shaper but as a Rebel, with some new class choices. The writing is good, despite the fact that the factions are again only two. But this time you start on the other side (Vogel loves this, he did similarly with the Avernum series). You can do some very nice backstabbing and doublecrossing (The Swamps of Monarch are a little jewel in this regard), that you could not do in GF3.

+Geneforge 5: Bigger. Almost adequate graphics. Summons&spells/mechanics are not that different from GF4. Factional choice with multiple options (no longer the Shaper vs Rebels dichotomia that ruled GF3&4). Encounter design is varied, and the game is quite self-contained. I found it the weakest one, but maybe it's because this time I failed to find a faction that truly appealed to me. There are some very good combats, both atmospherical (despite the graphics) and well-designed (despite the limited ruleset). GF 2 has far better C&C, I disagree with Traveler.

If you have to play only one, go for GF 1 or 5. If you want to play more, GF2 is good as an expansion. GF3&4 are both nice games, but they are not the best starting point.

Do you need anything else? Here at your service. I love the GF series. SHAPER POWAH

EDIT: As about story spoilers, Vogel went for a rational choice. You can't convert saves, but there is a canon ending in each game. The best case of this is without doubt GF5, that takes a very interesting approach by keeping one of GF 4's possible endings. And it's quite funny to see how characters (and their priorities and ideas) change, and how the image of some of the dead ones is employed in later games.

EDIT 2: why the fuck we have a Spiderweb subforum, what the heck, talk about useless

 

[Vagiel]

I have to agree with the above post.lately I am not easily engaged in long games but geneforge never seizes to grab me. I should start avernum also I believe.

 

[Lhynn]

EDIT 2: why the fuck we have a Spiderweb subforum, what the heck, talk about useless

Maybe Vogel will see it, shed a single tear and go back to making quality games.
I have the feeling that the thing he needs more than anything is good criticism and feedback.

 

[Agesilaus]

Geneforge is one of the best, if not the best, RPG series ever made. If memory serves, they are separated into 3 independent groups; they take place in the same game universe, but the characters and events are distinct.

Geneforge 1 is a standalone title that involves a lot of mystery, exploration, and a unique gameworld.

Geneforge 2 is like the original, but with a new story, a little less mystery and a lot more content and mechanics.

Geneforges 3, 4, 5 share a lot of characters and really constitute the main story that people think of when they talk about the series.


If you can only play one, I'd say you should go with the second. However, it will ruin the first one for you. A lot of the appeal of the first one is in the mystery. The only reason to play 3 and 4 is to experience everything about the main story. 4 is actually good, but I think 5 does everything better. 3 is... well, it introduces a lot of interesting characters.

Anyway, ranking:

Geneforge 2
Geneforge 5
Geneforge 1
Geneforge 4
Geneforge 3

 

[V_K]

I might be wrong about that, but there's one thing that G1 has over all its sequels: the ability to say "fuck you" to every faction and go your own way.

 

[Agesilaus]

Started playing Geneforge 2 again, it's as good as ever. Just joined the Bharzites, but a Taker just invited me up north and I've never really explored up there. I like the focus on gene technology and the smaller scale of Geneforge 2, whereas 4 & 5 are more about industrial production of increasingly powerful monsters, and training magicians to control them.

Does anyone here recommend Geneforge 4 over 5? Does anyone even remember what the differences are? At this point, I just remember that you start as a rebel.

I might be wrong about that, but there's one thing that G1 has over all its sequels: the ability to say "fuck you" to every faction and go your own way.

I think you can do it in Geneforge 2. Like Geneforge 1, the game ends when you walk/sail to a certain area. Therefore, you could just kill everyone and then walk out of the valley. I'm not sure if that's a legitimate ending, though, as I've never done it.

 

[Dayyālu]

Started playing Geneforge 2 again, it's as good as ever. Just joined the Bharzites, but a Taker just invited me up north and I've never really explored up there. I like the focus on gene technology and the smaller scale of Geneforge 2, whereas 4 & 5 are more about industrial production of increasingly powerful monsters, and training magicians to control them.

Uhmmm. One of the "blackest" factions, truly. Never went on their side.

Does anyone here recommend Geneforge 4 over 5? Does anyone even remember what the differences are? At this point, I just remember that you start as a rebel.

Geneforge 4 is quite focused on the direct conflict ShapersVSRebels. While I like the post apoc feel of G5 (that shows us what happens when the Ultimate Weapon, the Unbound, get deployed) the factional choice never appealed to me. Mechanics are pretty much identical, maybe some new creations were made on 5 (i think the overcharged ones were 5-only, but my memory is fuzzy).

I liked a lot how you could play the double-double agent, pretty much until the Swamps of Monarch. Playing each faction and trying to be undercover as much as you could. Now that I think of it, I liked the Swamps a lot as they are a great example of both Shapers and Rebels fighting a "third foe": a cliche done so many times, but so well executed there. Plus Monarch, despite not being that deep, is an interesting end result of the canonical canister madness.

Endgame is a bit disappointing, though. And I never got around playing a Servile.... what happens if you play a Servile loyal to the Shapers?

I might be wrong about that, but there's one thing that G1 has over all its sequels: the ability to say "fuck you" to every faction and go your own way.

I think you can do it in Geneforge 2. Like Geneforge 1, the game ends when you walk/sail to a certain area. Therefore, you could just kill everyone and then walk out of the valley. I'm not sure if that's a legitimate ending, though, as I've never done it.

You can exit the valley when you want. The "fuck you" ending is the Shaper ending, and the "best one" in a way: heed the counsel of the hidden Shaper Loyalists in their camp and fuck up everyone. If you have employed too many canisters, you'll get imprisoned or something (I don't remember), if you have not gone "full power" you get promoted and become a great agent of the Shaper Council. A great RP moment, when "Hey, I don't like this bunch of traitors, madmen, arrogant lizards and freaks. Order, Discipline and Responsability. Let's kill 'em all."

 

[Agesilaus]

What's everyone's character build of choice?

I'm almost invariably a Shaper. In the earlier titles, I go for the magic creations (artilla path) and some blessings. In later titles, I focus solely on battle creations so I can get a super-powerful Rrothgrath.

This time around, I'm trying fire creations. Just rolling around Geneforge 2 with a couple of cyrodrakes, which is almost like god mode. I didn't invest anything into magic, though, so I basically just sit there and deploy spores/low-level blesses and heals.

Does anyone here recommend Geneforge 4 over 5? Does anyone even remember what the differences are? At this point, I just remember that you start as a rebel.

Geneforge 4 is quite focused on the direct conflict ShapersVSRebels. While I like the post apoc feel of G5 (that shows us what happens when the Ultimate Weapon, the Unbound, get deployed) the factional choice never appealed to me. Mechanics are pretty much identical, maybe some new creations were made on 5 (i think the overcharged ones were 5-only, but my memory is fuzzy).

I liked a lot how you could play the double-double agent, pretty much until the Swamps of Monarch. Playing each faction and trying to be undercover as much as you could. Now that I think of it, I liked the Swamps a lot as they are a great example of both Shapers and Rebels fighting a "third foe": a cliche done so many times, but so well executed there. Plus Monarch, despite not being that deep, is an interesting end result of the canonical canister madness.

Endgame is a bit disappointing, though. And I never got around playing a Servile.... what happens if you play a Servile loyal to the Shapers?

Thanks, I'll give it another shot after I'm done with Geneforge 2. Also, you're right, 5 did add some new creations. I want to say there's the flashy drakons and an upgraded type of Rrothgrath. I've finished it a couple of times, once as the Loyalist with the crippled guardian, and once with the Trakovites. I tried helping Litalia for a third play through, but I was too weak; I tried to play as a pure-melee guardian for some reason.

I might be wrong about that, but there's one thing that G1 has over all its sequels: the ability to say "fuck you" to every faction and go your own way.

I think you can do it in Geneforge 2. Like Geneforge 1, the game ends when you walk/sail to a certain area. Therefore, you could just kill everyone and then walk out of the valley. I'm not sure if that's a legitimate ending, though, as I've never done it.

You can exit the valley when you want. The "fuck you" ending is the Shaper ending, and the "best one" in a way: heed the counsel of the hidden Shaper Loyalists in their camp and fuck up everyone. If you have employed too many canisters, you'll get imprisoned or something (I don't remember), if you have not gone "full power" you get promoted and become a great agent of the Shaper Council. A great RP moment, when "Hey, I don't like this bunch of traitors, madmen, arrogant lizards and freaks. Order, Discipline and Responsability. Let's kill 'em all."[/QUOTE]

Well, I'm not that hardcore; I've only finished geneforge 2 once, and my character was not strong enough to kill everyone. I did the missions for the Loyalists from The Wire, and I teamed up and completed the missions for the Loyalist faction in the first town. No canisters, because I think I read a forum post that said it would change the ending, but at this point I no longer recall the ending. I literally played 1 through 5 back-to-back.

I'm usually a solid Loyalist, but something about the Bharzites makes me think that they are a good choice. They aren't in a state of declared war yet, and a lot of their focus is on genetic research and improving themselves. I get why the Shapers want to destroy the geneforge and all the canister technology, but ultimately I think they need to start adopting this new technology. In Geneforge 2, Bharzites are clearly the most advanced and shaper-like, and I think the Awakened leader mentions that the Bharzite goal is to make its own remote, shaper kingdom. I wouldn't mind supporting a little research kingdom in the mountains.

Better than going home and getting executed by Luddites.

 

[Nim]

Does anyone here recommend Geneforge 4 over 5? Does anyone even remember what the differences are? At this point, I just remember that you start as a rebel.

I do recommend 4 over 5. No hitpoint scaling depending on difficulty, not every single goddamn enemy having poison/acid/lightning aura attacks, speed. Best written NPCs in the series I think.

Uhmmm. One of the "blackest" factions, truly. Never went on their side.

Bunch of loons. Only joined them once to see the ending, didn't like how you never ever belong even after all you do for them. They still hate you like they hate all shapers, just a bit less. Kill all Takers

Endgame is a bit disappointing, though. And I never got around playing a Servile.... what happens if you play a Servile loyal to the Shapers?

As long as you don't use many canisters and Alwan and Miranda live you'll be made administrator of the ex-rebel provinces. It's a pretty good ending.

Also, you're right, 5 did add some new creations.

Nope.

I'm usually a solid Loyalist, but something about the Bharzites makes me think that they are a good choice. They aren't in a state of declared war yet, and a lot of their focus is on genetic research and improving themselves. I get why the Shapers want to destroy the geneforge and all the canister technology, but ultimately I think they need to start adopting this new technology. In Geneforge 2, Bharzites are clearly the most advanced and shaper-like, and I think the Awakened leader mentions that the Bharzite goal is to make its own remote, shaper kingdom. I wouldn't mind supporting a little research kingdom in the mountains.

The only goal Barzahl has is more power, to become godlike.

 

[Dayyālu]

What's everyone's character build of choice?

The "main" playthrough always as Shaper (who can resist the allure of the poor bastard with a hood?) but I've tried some secondary playthroughs as a Guardian. Agents never *clicked* with me.

In five games, you can pretty much test all the builds you want. Battle Creations+Blesses, Magic Creations+Blesses (Vlish spam!) or Fire Creations or Magic Shaper. I've never failed to get high Leadership/Mechanics, 'cause secondary ways to fight bosses and solve problems are always fun. In how many ways you could kill Trajkov?

No canisters, because I think I read a forum post that said it would change the ending, but at this point I no longer recall the ending. I literally played 1 through 5 back-to-back.

Not the only one to do so, again. Going in a canister spree after the first is a interesting thing: it changes the ending (Shapers aren't too fond of abominations) and often give you shitty dialogues where you can only kill the opposition, as you character can't stand being angered. Subtlety is a lost art for the canister users, it seems...

I'm usually a solid Loyalist, but something about the Bharzites makes me think that they are a good choice. They aren't in a state of declared war yet, and a lot of their focus is on genetic research and improving themselves. I get why the Shapers want to destroy the geneforge and all the canister technology, but ultimately I think they need to start adopting this new technology. In Geneforge 2, Bharzites are clearly the most advanced and shaper-like, and I think the Awakened leader mentions that the Bharzite goal is to make its own remote, shaper kingdom. I wouldn't mind supporting a little research kingdom in the mountains.

Better than going home and getting executed by Luddites.

This is why I love the series. Despite being myself a Loyalist too, I find the Bharzites pretty much the worst of both worlds: taking the harsh approach of the Shapers without being limited by ethics and responsibility, like the Rebels. 'cause the stock Shapers are huge on the need to control their powers. It's the usual spiel of "From great power, Great responsibilities" and they have done a good job until now. And from what we see from the opposition, they are truly the lesser evil.

I never thought of the Bharzites as a research-focused faction, a Geneforge version of Chairman Yang from SMAC. Different viewpoints from a different focus, I guess. To each his own!

Kill all Takers

Indeed. Freakin' Drakons, man.

 

[Agesilaus]

So I just killed Phariston, the shaper who's boarded-up in the mountains immediately south-west of the Bharzites. In his bedroom was a canister that... gave me +1 to Charisma?? There is no stat listed with the name "charisma", so is this just a hidden Leadership buff?

Also, you're right, 5 did add some new creations.

Nope.

Huh, maybe I just sucked and never got the high level creations in 4. Perhaps I missed the Drakons and the Rrothgrath because I was too focused on the new lightning lizards that were introduced in 4.

This is why I love the series. Despite being myself a Loyalist too, I find the Bharzites pretty much the worst of both worlds: taking the harsh approach of the Shapers without being limited by ethics and responsibility, like the Rebels. 'cause the stock Shapers are huge on the need to control their powers. It's the usual spiel of "From great power, Great responsibilities" and they have done a good job until now. And from what we see from the opposition, they are truly the lesser evil.

I never thought of the Bharzites as a research-focused faction, a Geneforge version of Chairman Yang from SMAC. Different viewpoints from a different focus, I guess. To each his own!

The Bharzites seem to have the most developed research facility. The Radiant college has a bunch of microscopes and apprentices recording genetic material. They also talk a lot about their research and how they'll improve your genes.

The loyalists in the first city don't have anything, same goes for the little loyalist base in the forest. The Awakened have a simpler research facility that is more geared towards production, and I haven't been to the Takers yet. Phariston has a little research centre, but he flat out doesn't believe in genetics.

I agree that the Bharzites are pretty bad, though. I just think the gene technology should be developed, so I went Bharzite for my second playthrough.

 

[Nim]

Charisma is a mental magic spell, gives more leadership. It's only in G2&3.

Huh, maybe I just sucked and never got the high level creations in 4. Perhaps I missed the Drakons and the Rrothgrath because I was too focused on the new lightning lizards that were introduced in 4.

Rothzidons and Ur-Drakons should be in since G3 actually. G4 introduced Wingbolts, Kyshaks and War Tralls iirc.

 

[Agesilaus]

Charisma is a mental magic spell, gives more leadership. It's only in G2&3.

Huh, maybe I just sucked and never got the high level creations in 4. Perhaps I missed the Drakons and the Rrothgrath because I was too focused on the new lightning lizards that were introduced in 4.

Rothzidons and Ur-Drakons should be in since G3 actually. G4 introduced Wingbolts, Kyshaks and War Tralls iirc.

Yep, just spotted the spell; I went to go learn some spells and it was listed as an option.

 

[solomonhume]

Charisma is a mental magic spell, gives more leadership. It's only in G2&3.

Rothzidons and Ur-Drakons should be in since G3 actually. G4 introduced Wingbolts, Kyshaks and War Tralls iirc.

Ur-Drakons are introduced in G2. They sucks in G2.
They are actually missing in G3, because there are only 2 create drakon canisters and there is no other way to get the third level.
They are wonderful in G4, but you can only get them at the very end of game

 

[Fug]

Charisma is a mental magic spell, gives more leadership. It's only in G2&3.

Rothzidons and Ur-Drakons should be in since G3 actually. G4 introduced Wingbolts, Kyshaks and War Tralls iirc.

Ur-Drakons are introduced in G2. They sucks in G2.
They are actually missing in G3, because there are only 2 create drakon canisters and there is no other way to get the third level.
They are wonderful in G4, but you can only get them at the very end of game

Never used them in 2, what made them so bad?

 

[solomonhume]

Ur-Drakons are introduced in G2. They sucks in G2.
They are actually missing in G3, because there are only 2 create drakon canisters and there is no other way to get the third level.
They are wonderful in G4, but you can only get them at the very end of game

Never used them in 2, what made them so bad?

Why all upgraded top tier creations suck in GF2:
They cost twice (250) as much as non-upgraded version, but offers little improvement
There is no resistance in GF2, which mean higher tier creations will take the same amount of damage as lower ones

Why Ur-drakon sucks in particular:
Their damage actually reduced to d6 after the upgrade. In comparison, gazers cost half as much but does d12. Even a drayk cost less than 1/4 does more damage.

 

[Fug]

Ur-Drakons are introduced in G2. They sucks in G2.
They are actually missing in G3, because there are only 2 create drakon canisters and there is no other way to get the third level.
They are wonderful in G4, but you can only get them at the very end of game

Never used them in 2, what made them so bad?

Why all upgraded top tier creations suck in GF2:
They cost twice (250) as much as non-upgraded version, but offers little improvement
There is no resistance in GF2, which mean higher tier creations will take the same amount of damage as lower ones

Why Ur-drakon sucks in particular:
Their damage actually reduced to d6 after the upgrade. In comparison, gazers cost half as much but does d12. Even a drayk cost less than 1/4 does more damage.

Drayks have always been really good, but what exactly do you mean by d6? I never read up on the specifics of damage calculation in Geneforge.

 

[solomonhume]

D6 means each strength increase damage by 1 to 6, an average of 3.5

 

[Fug]

D6 means each strength increase damage by 1 to 6, an average of 3.5

Ah ok, makes sense. That's pretty fucking shitty then, no reason to use a Drakon at all then. Drayks have always been my favorite creature type anyway

 

[Tito Anic]

1. G2
2. G3
3. G4

Played G1-didnt finish, started G5 but stopped in the middle of playthrough, maybe will finish it some day.

 

[Mozg]

1, 2, and then I think 5 4 and 3 run together at "basically OK". Part of that is that I thought the direction he went to keep recapitulating the same factions was boring.

Don't play 5 on a high difficulty. Vogel switched to HP bloat for high difficulty at some point in there.

For all games other than 1 and 2, I hope you have a big monitor at a short desktop distance because he keeps shrinking tile pixel art originally designed to be shown at 640x480 (or 800x600? Can't remember) so he can reuse them at higher resolutions and they get more eyesearing every game.