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Editorial Rampant Coyote on Advancing Computer Role-playing

Discussion in 'RPG Codex News & Content Comments' started by Crooked Bee, Jul 14, 2012.

  1. Crooked Bee Nyadmin Patron

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    Jay "Rampant Coyote" Barnson, the Frayed Knights developer, has put up a series of two blog posts on "advancing the role of role-playing", describing how CRPGs should, in his view, simulate the kind of complexity found in pen and paper RP games. It's a very simulationist approach indeed, and one that I personally don't share for the simple reason that I don't really care about the kind of "role-playing" it strives for...

    [In CRPGs,] aside from some canned dialog or story options, there’s really no way to express the subtleties of character. You can’t wink at a barmaid to try and catch her attention, or bribe some of the street urchins to tip you with information when they catch site of your rival, sneer at the mayor as he welcomes you to the town, or treat your horse to an extra bit of oats and an apple and a good brushing to reward it for its courage and the hard run it made to bring you back to the town in safety.

    ...but it's a pretty interesting read. In particular, the first article provides a list of "ingredients" that the author believes CRPGs should contain. These include "Consequences for Everything", "NPC Perception of Player Actions", "History / Memory", as well as the following two:

    Generalized, Abstract, Flexible Actions

    One solution is a generalized, abstract mechanism to simulate a variety of specific actions. As I’ve suggested before, The Sims series provides a good template for this kind of thing. Players can fill in the specifics in their own minds. In multiplayer, perhaps the players could provide more description to the abstract actions. In game terms, the player may be talking to an NPC using a number of social skills – or skill settings – intimidation, seduction, diplomacy, oratory, whatever. In a tabletop game, a player might describe their actions in specific terms, and the game master does his or her best to translate it into more general game terms. In a CRPG, the player himself may have to provide that translation. But it’s possible.

    I’m not saying that everything should be abstracted. And I’m well aware that this could cause a horrifically complicated UI. After all, if there’s all these things you can do with an NPC besides attacking them or talking to them, ALL THE TIME, those choices have to be represented somehow.

    A Different Approach to Game-Building

    In traditional scripting of quests in an RPG, an NPC might have a key piece of information that you need to complete the main storyline. What happens if you piss that NPC off?

    Generally, you can’t, or he’ll have to give you the information anyway regardless of attitude, or the designer has to create some custom alternatives. Traditional game-scripting tends to follow pretty exact sequences of events. The player must follow rigid steps in sequence to advance the storyline, although there may be alternate paths to give the player some choice in his or her approach.

    If some of the above ideas above get implemented in a more open-ended, simulationist CRPG world, things can get out of control with this approach very quickly. In response, a designer could abandon the idea of deep human-generated storylines and create a Daggerfall-esque game of procedurally generated content. Appropriate, but not very satisfying.

    Or – this might suggest a completely different approach to how CRPGs get scripted. Is it possible to have the game decide how to trigger specific events at run-time based on game state? To delay the binding of who is an “important” NPC in the game (with critical information or quests) until the player has selected these people through their own interactions? To set up the quests as more generalized events and triggers that leave the player more freedom on how they accomplish (or fail to accomplish) goals?

    This would be a pretty cool thing to experiment with on a small, indie basis. I see it being far too risky for a big AAA game, and something like this would probably need to go through several prototype iterations of varying degrees of suckage to get right. But it’s something to noodle on.

    The second post expands on all that, presenting an idea for a small-scope CRPG that would further advance NPC AI and character interaction. Have a snippet:

    Anyway, here’s the twist: The exit is a magical portal that requires one living person to remain behind (willingly or unwillingly) in the room. That person will face almost certain death.

    All four of the party-members know this fact from the get-go. One of them is going to be sacrificed – willingly or unwillingly. Yet their best chance of surviving the treacherous journey to the portal room are together as a group. Keeping each other alive maximizes their chances, because it’s not a limit on how many can leave the dungeon – it’s the limitation that at least one must stay behind.

    Every action undertaken by anyone in the party – especially the player – gets evaluated by the other party members in this light. Will the other party members turn on them, knock them unconscious or bind them with rope? Will it be every man (or woman) for himself in the portal chamber as everyone races to the portal, with the slowest or weakest left behind? Or will one (or more) of the party members make the noble sacrifice and willingly stay behind so that others can escape?

    As there’s really no way for characters to get away in secret to make pacts or alliances, it’s all in how they treat each other. The AI characters may actually try to misdirect their intentions through their actions – being extra nice to the character they intend to betray. And the player character may be that person.

    [...] And at the end of the game – in lieu of having life really continue beyond the magical entrance – the game spills out some information for the player on who these characters were that he spent the last few hours surviving with. Their character traits, and their relationship with and assumptions about each other.

    Relationship statistics, so fun.
  2. Infinitron RPG Codex Staff Patron

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    Still smarting from the breakup with MCA, I see. :troll:
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  3. Ion Prothon II Savant

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    Had similar ideas like this guy once. Things required to do stuff like this would be an overkill for any small indie project. Metadata, scripting and the long process of bugfixing. It's like doing the next Dwarf Fortress, but focused on abstract things, not material. And it's just a single subsystem of entire game.
  4. Rivmusique Learned Patron

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    At this point I will just take the 3 floors deep dungeon turn-based combat game :(

    The scenario he set up made me think of the saw movies.
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  5. Jaesun Fabulous Moderator Patron

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  6. mbpopolano24 Learned

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    I liked the article and above all the hint to experiment and innovate. Most games suck anyway, so why not?
  7. Ion Prothon II Savant

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    Molyneux seems to like experiments. Look at him and you'll know why not.
  8. Pope Amole II Learned

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  9. Mozgoëbstvo Learned

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    Your Holiness, please, don't exert yourself with these dealings. Make your press office move on your behalf. More urgent matters await you, I'm sure.
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  10. Darkforge Educated

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    Peter's experiments are solely intended to create gimmick's with the ultimate intent of dumbing down game system's even further for the consoletard market and cash in under the guise of "advancing" game's....

    A far cry from what this guy is suggesting which would actually be awesome when it worked and would take a lot of work to implement. Unlike

    "Ooh you have a dog that find's you novelty hats. INNOVATION"

    I hate molyneux
  11. mondblut Magister

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    So many people are so desperate to kill the RPG genre and "reinvent" it as some New Shit TM.

    You could almost think it is still alive and kicking, so hard are they trying.
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  12. Metro Magister

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    Jay, I know you visit the Codex, so... you need to spend less time blogging and more time groveling before the great GabeN to get Frayed Knights on Steam. That's right, I'm a mindless Steam whore so get to it.
  13. Johannes Liturgist

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    I've never played the Sims, so correct me if I really misunderstood something.

    But seems like he just wants more parts of the game to work like, well, like a game, like an RPG, and not just the combat. More organic and abstract NPC interaction which contains more complex maneuvers than "pick the I Win-option if skill>x".

    Something like Mass Effect or PS:T have more of a focus on people than adventuring, not the stuff he describes. Which is all about adventuring but with actual rules for the people instead of just cutscenes and simple scripts.
  14. Morkar illiterate

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    Nothing wrong with that as long as you provide the traditional handmade content as well. Otherwise it gets too much like a randomized roguelike and it will feel just empty and artificial. Trading, rumors and getting on the positive side of the locales are things you can put into some rulesystem, direct information and questclues not. As always it is a good idea to look into p&p rpgs because they already explored such pathes (D&D, Ars Magica and a lot of others).
  15. mondblut Magister

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    When we once more are partying like it's 1992, swimming in those countless banal shit boring turn-based RPGs with fuckton of stats - THEN we can ponder on what fancy shit could be done to make all those copycat 5th edition Goldbox games and Wizardries 11+ fun again, like gay romances or sophisticated derp story or whatever. Until then - STFU and fuck off.
  16. Johannes Liturgist

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    Well.... No.

    He's not talking about Biowarian emotional engagements at all.
  17. LeStryfe79 Drunk Patron

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    The role play he's talking about would mostly be covered by a good skill system, the problem being that not enough people give a shit.
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  18. Morkar illiterate

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    If I understood him correctly, he's not talking about specific dialogue. He's talking about covering dialogue with rules that are flexible enough that you can talk/interact with everybody in the game in a meaningful manner without having to attach specific dialogue to it.
    Instead of the scripted multiple choice response "I want to emotionally engage you from behind Dragon-Lich-Priestess Blossom" (with a handcrafted cutscene attached to it) you have a rule-set to charm every person if you are good enough. This allows you to reach some quest goals in different ways without having them explicitely worked out.
    In the example above you could charm instead a random dark maiden akolyth npc to get the keys for the Dragon-Lich-Priestess chamber to steal her heart in a truly meaningful way without having specific dialog designed for it in the form of a specific quest.
  19. Morkar illiterate

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    Frayed Knights wasn't annoying funny for me and all in all it's definitely one of the better games released with new gameplayelements that fit well into the classical dungeon crawler scheme.

    He's more talking about having some abstract gamemechanics to handle such things. If done correctly nothing wrong with it. Ishar for example made it sometimes difficult to invite an npc into your party because not everybody liked the person. Or some partymembers could backstab you, rob you etc. JA2 had similar and more refined mechanics between mercrelationships.

    Being able to take influence into this partyrelationships when backed up with a skillrelated rulesystem doesn't sound bad for me. It brings a whole new dynamic into the party-selection. The problem is when it's done bioware kindergarten style multiple choice dialogue.

    The real (dialog-)content should still be the same. It's useful to bring more numbers into play which are meaningful, give more options to solve quests (without having to script everything) and to allow repetitive/common tasks getting handled by numbers (or in pnp terms; not having to "act/play" the barmaid seducing scene to get the info you want to have).

    And why do you think it doesn't make much sense for indies to think about such things? It isn't a money problem, it's about being able to code it properly.
  20. Ion Prothon II Savant

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    Pretty much this, but AI could be better.

    Yes and no. What the Coyote guy wrote sounds retarded, maybe it even *is* retarded, if read literally in the narrow context of this sim bullshit he went with.
    But the idea is brilliant. Propably you're too edgy to see it. It's about a game engine (part of game engine) with an interaction causing some complex feedback from the game world. NPCs have a set of behavioral patterns, so they can react on what PC is doing. Entire non- key subplots possible to be dynamically generated. Multiple ways to an objective. And so on. Could give some examples and describe it better, but I'm little caffeine low ATM.
    In a reasonable implementation of such system (not retarded AI of objects valuable to main plot), the thing you wrote with this 85 sacrificing would be impossible.
    Yeah. Because nobody would want to play a RPG with better social interaction, like, let's say, dynamic simulation of medieval society in cities.
  21. Ion Prothon II Savant

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    Engine with such features definitely *can* make games better, at least in terms of AI and (ohfuckfuck how i hate this word) *immersion*. But I don't see it got done. It doesn't fit neither the small indie projects, nor modern AAA games. ANd I'm sure it's beyond the capability of rampant games, and it will end just like pointless fapping and a marketing buzzword.

    Funny thing with roguelikes- those games seem to be particularly bad idea. In most cases there is not enough writing and plot data to start with, and it's a project with database of Dwarf Fortress' size. Total overkill as for a funny game with ascii instead of graphics.
  22. Morkar illiterate

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    Well designed it's completely possible. When I can make spreadsheets for pnp rpgs to simulate such things you can do it for crpgs, too. Strategy games can do similar things as well. You just have to focus on what to implement and how you implement it. Nobody expects a real ai.

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