Development Info Putting the science back in Wasteland 2's science fiction

[Moribund]

Heh, sorry, bit of a sidebar. I saw your 500 preorders post on ITS ('grats!) and saw the use of the word "fags" as pertaining to your own audience. Now I know it's just a forum post and I know you like to keep it loose, but reading that just made me go "man, dude spends too much time on the 'dex". Just a bit odd to see that in what is sort of an official communique, of sorts? Maybe I'm overthinking things.

Well, I've been posting here for almost 10 years. It does leave a mark.

The people I'm upset at are very upset!

Do you really think that it takes typing "why r u butthurt!!!" to upset someone here? You have much to learn, newfag.

I think pointing out how you are carrying on like a little girl (while accusing others of it) has upset you or you wouldn't be acting so ridiculously and let it drop long ago. And it's a fact, you are jealous and butthurt in the extreme or you wouldn't get sand in your panties every single time one of these news items gets posted.

You don't have this minute critical eye for other games, and no one ever agrees with your crazy nitpicking. I don't think you have an "agenda" but you need to be honest to yourself where all this is coming from. For our sake to avoid this in future threads if not your own, because it gets old.

You're the one with a big issue, no one else. Get over it.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think pointing out how you are carrying on like a little girl...

By discussing my point of view in a reasonable manner without resorting to insults and personal attacks?

...has upset you or you wouldn't be acting so ridiculously and let it drop long ago.

I find lengthy debates entertaining, as long as the participants can behave like adults, of course.

And it's a fact, you are jealous and butthurt in the extreme or you wouldn't get sand in your panties every single time one of these news items gets posted.

Now, why would I be jealous? Fargo is an industry veteran with an impressive (at least pre-exile) 20+ year old career (not some indie who succeeded where I've failed). I loved Wasteland and I'm very excited about WL2. I backed the game and I hope it will be a great game.

At the same time, my enthusiasm doesn't mean that I think that everything that Fargo says is "AWSUM!!!" and I'd like to point out that very little is known about the game. Like I told you before, I liked the portraits, the scorpitron, and the music. I didn't like the moral example, didn't see the value in hiring scientists, and I'm disappointed about the lack of updates. If you still want to see jealousy and butthurt in the fact that I didn't like everything about the game, be my guest.

You don't have this minute critical eye for other games...

You really must be new then.

... and no one ever agrees with your crazy nitpicking.

New *and* blind? You didn't see people making similar arguments and agreeing with my posts?

I don't think you have an "agenda" but you need to be honest to yourself where all this is coming from.

It comes from having an opinion, enjoying debates, and not taking things personally.

 

[Morkar Left]

Sorry VD but people can already take bets when you will appear in a Brian Fargo news thread and questioning his decision/design methods/ideas/whatever. You really seem to be butthurt about him. I don't know why - maybe you even have a good reason for it - but it's pretty obvious considering how focused you are on it. No matter how often you come up with "I don't have something against him" when pointed at the fact.

 

[Excidium]

Yes, VD, why do you feel the need to contest every design decision like some sort of codexer? Just brofist OP and post little fapping guys.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Sorry VD but people can already take bets when you will appear in a Brian Fargo news thread and questioning his decision/design methods/ideas/whatever.

I wouldn't take those bets if I were you.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/wasteland-2-blog-update.76581/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/first-wasteland-2-enemy-portrait-revealed.75343/ (notice people bitching non-stop but it's ok because they are not me)
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...official-clothing-and-accessories-line.76381/ (I quoted Jimbob saying um, not sure if it counts as butthurt)
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/wasteland-2-camera-angle-footage.75820/ (again, notice people bitching)
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/sample-a-piece-of-wasteland-2s-music.75159/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/mclean-and-mccomb-on-writing-for-wasteland-2.75161/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...comb-comments-on-wasteland-2-eurogamer.75066/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/one-more-writer-for-wasteland-2.75002/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/wasteland-2-colorfulness-community-vote.74923/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/new-writer-joins-wasteland-2-team.74939/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/wasteland-2-to-have-pretty-portraits.74657/

Looking through these threads I see people arguing almost non-stop, yet when I say say something, it's like "OMG! VD is doing it again! The nerve! He's clearly very upset about WL2. Probably checks the Codex every day to make sure he doesn't miss a thread. It's like he's obsessed with Fargo or something. Well, did you play AoD? What a clusterfuck! No wonder he's so angry... Hate is all he has left..."

 

[Gakkone]

I think it's got more to do with VD just being someone who likes to argue.

So basically:

 

[Vault Dweller]

 

[almondblight]

I think it's got more to do with VD just being someone who likes to argue.

I think it has to do with the Codex being a place where people have different opinions about things. And some of the new kids taking that personally.

 

[General Maxson]

I think that you should continue to fight the good fight Vault Dweller. What you're saying isn't bitching for bitching's sake. Better to say something now, than be silent. At least we can than say that we tried voicing our opinions if the game turns out shit.

 

[Morkar Left]

Vault Dweller
I don't have the desire to start a bitching contest here with you. People can check it out by themselves if they are interested or will already remember your subtle and lately not so subtle bitching. If you have something about the game or Brian Fargo (I think it's more the later) just admit it openly instead of always talking around.
I don't specifically care about what you have to say about W2 or Brian Fargo and I don't mind people criticizing both. It's only that it starts to get annoying when you do it in nearly every thread about W2 or Brian Fargo in length because besides the obvious trolls you're pretty much the only one who does it constantly (yes, it's possible you missed a thread once in a while).

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think that you should continue to fight the good fight Vault Dweller. What you're saying isn't bitching for bitching's sake. Better to say something now, than be silent. At least we can than say that we tried voicing our opinions if the game turns out shit.

Well, that's the thing, I'm not fighting a good fight or trying to change something. I'm merely participating in discussions about nothing. At least I thought that I was participating in discussions until people started complaining that my posts upset their delicate sensibilities.

As for the game, I don't think it will be shit. Despite my occasional comments, I do have faith in Fargo (even if he sucks at moral dilemmas).

 

[almondblight]

Yeah. Pointing out that "enslaving nations with necromancy" was obvious marketing BS didn't mean that Dragon Age was (or wasn't) going to be shit. It just continued the long Codex tradition of speaking our minds and pointing out what appears to be BS when we see it. Anyone who reads "this one thing isn't a good idea" as "this game will suck" is a bit too sensitive.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Specificity is what keeps things from being generic and these consultants are providing some specificity, or at least that was the intention.

Crabs are not generic and worthy of money? Road to hell is paved by good intentions.

 

[Moribund]

What you're saying isn't bitching for bitching's sake.

What he said boiled down to "this is a publicity stunt! Fargo is a con man!". About a dozen people tried to get him to either see reason or elaborate more but that seems to be all there is to it, and it seems like everything that comes out about WL 2 gets the same treatment by the guy.

I'll be the one to let it drop, though. This has already gone on far too long. Maybe it's not jealousy but just that cain didn't like fargo so he must be a bad guy in vat dweller's eyes, because tim cain made fallout and he did name himself vault dweller after all.

 

[l3loodAngel]

I think that you should continue to fight the good fight Vault Dweller. What you're saying isn't bitching for bitching's sake.

Thing is that he is not bitching, he is debating and he is ferociously good at it. If you would look through his points they are all consistent, fluent and logical. The only time when inconsistencies may show up is when he is rebuking point by point, but you can't avoid that and that does not diminish the worth of the initial statement. So when dumb fucks find a slightest slip they jump at it and call it butthurt or they just start attacking AoD. It's like in primary school children insulting your mother, because they can't find your own weakness.

 

[General Maxson]

What you're saying isn't bitching for bitching's sake.

What he said boiled down to "this is a publicity stunt! Fargo is a con man!". About a dozen people tried to get him to either see reason or elaborate more but that seems to be all there is to it, and it seems like everything that comes out about WL 2 gets the same treatment by the guy.

I'll be the one to let it drop, though. This has already gone on far too long. Maybe it's not jealousy but just that cain didn't like fargo so he must be a bad guy in vat dweller's eyes, because tim cain made fallout and he did name himself vault dweller after all.

Why didn't Tim Cain like Fargo? Fargo ran a "tight ship"?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Why didn't Tim Cain like Fargo? Fargo ran a "tight ship"?

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lroZsP4zyIYC&pg=PA93&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Vault Dweller]

What you're saying isn't bitching for bitching's sake.

What he said boiled down to "this is a publicity stunt! Fargo is a con man!".

What I said boils down to "I don't think that hiring scientists is a good idea, here is why..." Of course, this is a publicity stunt as well, but there is nothing wrong with publicity stunts and they don't make one a con man. Fargo's job is to generate as much publicity and media interest as possible and so far he did a superb job there. His KS campaign was nothing short of brilliant.

About a dozen people tried to get him to either see reason or elaborate more but that seems to be all there is to it...

So for 25 pages I posted FARGO IS TEH CON MAN LOL!!!!? I see...

Maybe it's not jealousy but just that cain didn't like fargo so he must be a bad guy in vat dweller's eyes, because tim cain made fallout and he did name himself vault dweller after all.

Wow, that's deep. Tell us more.

 

[Wavinator]

If games were proper simulations, where developers had to design "fully functioning" creatures that have to detect prey, hunt, eat, mate, breed, interact with other animals, and proper ecosystems and food chains, then you'd need experts for that. To design a giant blob with hit points and cool abilities, a blob that exists in vacuum and have no fucking purpose, other than to give you experience points and loot, you need a designer.

This simulation versus fantasy argument really nails it. Change the domain to something more specific, like weapon design or architecture, and it becomes more obvious. A bias toward technically correct authenticity should yield somewhat mundane results simply because you're working within the constraints of known possibility. A bias toward fantasy, on the other hand (including science fantasy), should yield something that's more about playing into mythologies and exceeding known possibility. In the former, something like a 10 foot tall sword or stronghold built in the mouth of a volcano detracts because of a lack of fidelity; in the latter they enhance because of their novelty.

The degree to which your audience looks past logic and factual consistency is the degree to which you really don't need experts. If fantasy is more important, you get giant beasts that spit radioactive acid because the game really needs giant beasts that spit radioactive acid, damn what science says. Unless the domain is completely unknown (say, life on another planet or superscience), mixing the two is the worst of both worlds. What you get, in effect, is pedestrian novelty, something that plays into mythology sure enough but which is by virtue of being authentic and known, uninspiring.

 

[hiver]

No, it doesnt nail it.

It nails it only for complete morons who are incapable of thinking in anything but binary extremes.
There is no "simulation" versus fantasy argument at all. Nobody called for complete realism, nobody suggested it, nobody wanted it, let alone any kind of motherfucking simulation.
Its only that VD and a few other idiots invented that - because it is an angle that supports their "argument". A strawman.

There are only morons, coming up with moronic concepts the second they try to create an example of what they think is some kind of "fantasy" - although it is nothing but realistic concepts simply rearranged into moronic combinations.
Which then get accepted by morons because of simple emotional blackmail of "not having fun" if these idiotic concepts are not accepted at face value.

What I said boils down to "I don't think that hiring scientists is a good idea, here is why..."

Aha...sure. Want me to quote several pearls of wisdom from previous thread or is the one about how scientists are going to take over the design and turn the game into realistic simulation enough?

 

[Vault Dweller]

No, it doesnt nail it.

It nails it only for complete morons who are incapable of thinking in anything but binary extremes.

Well, we can't all be as smart as you, hiver, can we?

There are only morons, coming up with moronic concepts ... - although it is nothing but realistic concepts simply rearranged into moronic combinations, which then get accepted by morons...

To be fair, do you really expect morons to come up with non-moronic concepts?

What I said boils down to "I don't think that hiring scientists is a good idea, here is why..."

Aha...sure. Want me to quote several pearls of wisdom from previous thread or is the one about how scientists are going to take over the design and turn the game into realistic simulation enough?

What do you think "here is why..." refers to, hiver? Quoting my earlier post:

"Like I said in the other thread, there were two possibilities: either the scientists would go with scientifically realistic flora and fauna, which would be boring, or they would go with wacky shit like giant crabs, in which case their involvement isn't necessary at all."

 

[FeelTheRads]

Quoting my earlier post:

Ah, yes, keep repeating that post. Must make it seem like there's actually an argument or a point inside of it if you repeat it long enough, and not just random assumptions based on nothing at all.

I think there's some logical fallacy at work here.. when you get an example (the crabs) and assume you were right about the whole thing.

either the scientists would go with scientifically realistic flora and fauna,

Had the scientists' involvement resulted in really cool, interesting creatures

Those two quotes show exactly why arguing with you is like arguing with a Christian. Fucking flip-flopping all day long.

 

[Vault Dweller]

There is no flip-flopping or contradiction there. Since I have to explain obvious things, I'll make it as simple as possible:

- I don't *think* that realistic post-apoc flora and fauna would be interesting because there is no available data (Chernobyl, Fukushima, Hiroshima & Nagasaki, etc) that suggests that 'wacky' mutations are possible
- My position isn't an undeniable fucking fact because I'm not a scientist. It's what I *think*.
- I've never studied evolutionary biology, so *maybe* it's possible to develop "really cool, interesting creatures" by introducing some assumptions into the model.
- For my assumption that realistic flora and fauna would be boring (for the lack of a better word) to be proven wrong, "really cool, interesting creatures" had to be demonstrated. They weren't. Instead we got giant crabs, which is as generic as it gets.

The other alternative in my argument was that the scientists would end up designing wacky shit anyway, and yes, the giant crabs are a perfect example of that.

If there is anything else I can clear for you, don't hesitate to ask.

 

[almondblight]

either the scientists would go with scientifically realistic flora and fauna, which would be boring,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNLfNe12BKE

Fucking boring man. Where is that robot with spinning knives? That's SO exciting.

Wait a second...my Google-fu senses are tingling...

In 1990, artist Wayne Douglas Barlowe, best known in science fiction circles for Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials, published an unusual art book boasting the unlikely title of Expedition: Being an Account in Words and Artwork of the 2358 A.D. Voyage to Darwin IV.
In 2005, Evergreen Films produced a computer-animated, pseudo-documentary adaptation of the book titled simply Alien Planet, which the Discovery Channel first broadcast in May, then released on DVD in August.

So your proof that scientists can come up with interesting creatures is a documentary where a fantasy artist came up with interesting creatures?

Honestly, none of you "scientific plausibility" people noticed the gaping holes in the logic about the hermit crab, and you can't even tell if aliens are being designed by scientists or fantasy artists. The whole "scientific plausibility" schtick seems to be an "I want a scientists stamp of approval so I can pretend this stuff is real" escapism mentality.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Wait a second...my Google-fu senses are tingling...

Too bad that like always with "Google-fu" you're only able to scratch the surface and you don't actually understand anything about what you're reading.

For example:

Interestingly, the film focuses on several aspects which were mere background elements in Expedition. In one instance, the "electrical discharge mushrooms" which appeared as incidental in one painting are given significant screen time as well as a fairly detailed ecology. Ditto for gourd trees, rooty structures that are common but unexplained in Expedition but extensively investigated in Alien Planet as the first life the probes come across.

So your proof that scientists can come up with interesting creatures is a documentary where a fantasy artist came up with interesting creatures?

So no, it actually shows that scientist input is not useless and can help with world building.
And something else: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurelia_and_Blue_Moon

The whole "scientific plausibility" schtick seems to be an "I want a scientists stamp of approval so I can pretend this stuff is real" escapism mentality.

I already said that it's not limited to science but to any field in which one person might know more about than you.
Obviously they're not an absolute necessity if you have "good designers", but you seem to think that good designers are some kind of magical creatures that just pop into existence with all their knowledge or that good design=googling shit, and if their work is based on their training (Sandy Petersen) you just simply dismiss it because fuck.

- I've never studied evolutionary biology, so *maybe* it's possible to develop "really cool, interesting creatures" by introducing some assumptions into the model.

It's possible by knowing shit (yeah, shit that you can Google afterwards and claim that you knew it too) that others don't and that can be used into creating those creatures. Again, obviously not absolutely necessary (especially if you're not interested in scientific accuracy) but to claim that they're useless is well.. fucking retarded.

Instead we got giant crabs, which is as generic as it gets.

You do realize you're dismissing any kind of input science might have in any game by using an example for one game? Logical fallacies GOGO! I also assume you just know that no other game (save for Outpost which obviously failed because of science LOL) had ever had any input from science? Oh, I see, here's how it works: Tons of games have shit creatures and shit quests, so game designers are all useless and can't do any good.