Development Info Putting the science back in Wasteland 2's science fiction

[Brother None]

The giant animals seem like a more meaty, "real" example, but the example Fargo brought up more with me was their providing studies on human morality/motivations and how to kind of find the right way to put the player in tough situations. It's all minor stuff, for sure, and one can question the benefit of it. But the cost-benefit picture looks good to me overall. Hopefully inXile will talk a bit about that in the future, but maybe not.

 

[quasimodo]

The issue here isn't that involving experts is bad, it's that I'm incredibly butthurt this gets more attention than AoD and has a hundred times bigger fan base.

Internet logic: When VD posts about anything it is automatically becomes all about AOD.

just like at other sites when anybody post about Grimoire and it instantly becomes all about Cleve.

 

[Moribund]

The issue here isn't that involving experts is bad, it's that I'm incredibly butthurt this gets more attention than AoD and has a hundred times bigger fan base.

Internet logic: When VD posts about anything it is automatically becomes all about AOD.

just like at other sites when anybody post about Grimoire and it instantly becomes all about Cleve.

There's no logical reason why everything Brian Fargo does is bad, it's a pure emotional butthurt reaction. Brian Fargo is a flim flam man out to steal your money!

 

[Vault Dweller]

The issue here isn't that involving experts is bad, it's that I'm incredibly butthurt this gets more attention than AoD and has a hundred times bigger fan base.

Bro, AoD is a little indie game. *Any* game gets more attention and has a hundred times bigger fanbase. If such things bothered me, I would have never even started working on my own game.

There's no logical reason why everything Brian Fargo does is bad, it's a pure emotional butthurt reaction.

I like the portraits, the music, and the scorpitron. Didn't care much about the rest and explained why (but I guess my detailed explanations can't possibly be considered a logical reason).

Do you see me bitching about Project Eternity? Indies like Legends of Eisenwald or the Conquistador game, which can actually be considered competition? And what is this "everything Fargo does"? We know next to nothing about what he does, so I hope you'll forgive me for not getting excited over random and meaningless announcements.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Do you see me bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitchingand bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitchingand bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitchingand bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching?

Well now that you mention it...

 

[Castanova]

I don't see what the big deal is. Specificity is what keeps things from being generic and these consultants are providing some specificity, or at least that was the intention. They probably paid these guys virtually nothing, or maybe literally nothing, considering the free PR they're giving the company. Seems like a quid pro quo, to me.

Stop whining.

 

[Moribund]

Anyway, fargo is just the money and general vision guy. He doesn't do the actual work, he hires people, who will hopefully turn out to not be idiots. I'd rather he hire people who might know something for each subject than let his son do it, or dredge up the corpse of every old interplay employee to get enough people to get it out the door.

Considering some of the games that came out which he had some part of, I have great confidence.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

What's this, crabs? In my post-apocalyptic role-playing game?

 

[taxalot]

"I have no idea how much these guys were paid nor what they brought to the table but this was really not worth the cost."
Chill out, guys. Sometimes science is not good for itself, but just as a source of inspiration. Of course the crab.example was not the best, but I highly doubt this is going to be the only idea. And again no one knows how much they were paid.

I trust the Fargo.

 

[St. Toxic]

50% of the ks funds and, yes, that's only for the crab idea.

 

[tobial]

Alvarado agrees wholeheartedly. "I know some people are saying, 'Oh, I don't want Wasteland 2 to be scientifically accurate or realistic, because that would ruin such an off the wall game,' we're not doing that at all. ... We know that the game would be pretty boring if it had to be 100 percent realistic. We're trying to add some science facts on to their fiction just to give it a bit more grounding in reality. If you happen to identify with some of the actual science, you enjoy it that much more. If you don't, that's fine, you're still going to enjoy the game."

The Hermit crab example sounds fun to me. I don't see any possibility that the game will be too realistic. It will just be a little bit less dumb than other games.

Fargo seems like a relatively savvy businessman, so I'm guessing that he is not spending a lot of money to hire these guys. There probably isn't a lot of call for these consulting services, especially in this economy.They are probably happy to work for cheap and get some publicity.

If it turns out that this is eating up a lot of the budget, then it is bad. If it turns out these guys are working for cheap, it's a fun idea that will probably enhance my enjoyment of the game.

EDIT: I've never heard of any of the other companies that they are consulting with, so I'm guessing they jumped at the opportunity to work on a semi-well known project like W2.

http://www.thwacke.com/clients.html

Yes, this is them trying something new out because they can, and should. Playing around.

And that's cool, man.

 

[St. Toxic]

Y'know, I'm withdrawing my support for this science bullshit and backing VD's bitching 100%. It says on their profile page that they're pretty much all fans of Fallout 3.

 

[Brother None]

Fargo seems like a relatively savvy businessman, so I'm guessing that he is not spending a lot of money to hire these guys. There probably isn't a lot of call for these consulting services, especially in this economy.They are probably happy to work for cheap and get some publicity.

If it turns out that this is eating up a lot of the budget, then it is bad. If it turns out these guys are working for cheap, it's a fun idea that will probably enhance my enjoyment of the game.

I said before it but I'll say it again, you guys speculating on this being a very favorable deal involving free PR are dead on. It's not even remotely eating away at the budget. I know the amount they're getting for this, though I can't share, but I can definitely say it is really very insignificant. Hope it'll be revealed at some point coz it makes a lot of the debates pretty funny in hindsight. Though I dunno if "cost" was the determining factor for everyone, it did seem to be a big reason for people to protest overall.

Y'know, I'm withdrawing my support for this science bullshit and backing VD's bitching 100%. It says on their profile page that they're pretty much all fans of Fallout 3.

Holy shit you're right. Three, count em, THREE FALLOUT 3 FANBOYS.
BURN IT ALL DOWN.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I said before it but I'll say it again, you guys speculating on this being a very favorable deal involving free PR are dead on. It's not even remotely eating away at the budget. I know the amount they're getting for this, though I can't share, but I can definitely say it is really very insignificant. Hope it'll be revealed at some point coz it makes a lot of the debates pretty funny in hindsight. Though I dunno if "cost" was the determining factor for everyone, it did seem to be a big reason for people to protest overall.

It was mostly a philosophical "can science consultants make a game like Wasteland 2 better?" debate (although some retards assumed it was an attack on Fargo and took it personally). So, even if it turns out that the scientists paid Fargo, I don't think it would change anyone's position.

 

[Brother None]

If the scientists paid Fargo, wouldn't they be backers? And didn't inXile take feedback from backers, including open calls for mission ideas and poll votes to get feedback on decisions? How is this any different? Thwacke isn't making any decisions anymore than any of us (they don't decide what makes it into the game, only suggest). We can make suggestions. They can make suggestions. Problem? Does being scientists who are looking at finding a niche in gaming's science-writing disqualify them? If I had suggested the crab-in-car thing on the forums instead and some dev went "hey, neat idea, I think we might do that", would it have been fine?

So many questions

 

[FeelTheRads]

"can science consultants make a game like Wasteland 2 better?"

Yeah, maybe sometimes you should try and stop with the flip-flopping. You argued from the start that they can't make any game better, you didn't limit yourself to W2. Likewise, before even hearing about the crab example you dismissed the whole idea, so don't point at that.
Your whole argument was fucking retarded from the start. Because hey, once you hear about something you can claim that anybody could have come up with it. HURR YELLOW BLOOD LOOK I CAN GOOGLE YELLOW BLOOD IT MEANS I COULD HAVE DONE IT TOO. Maybe it didn't occur to you that a certain educational background can give people ideas that they otherwise wouldn't have.
But everybody is a reverse-designer nowadays.

 

[Excidium]

Truth is the codex needs something to argue about, and since we know next to nothing about the game, the nature of those scientists and their involvement had to do.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"can science consultants make a game like Wasteland 2 better?"

Yeah, maybe sometimes you should try and stop with the flip-flopping. You argued from the start that they can't make any game better, you didn't limit yourself to W2.

I said that that's what the discussion was about. As in, what people (not just me) in this thread argued about. The wackiness of the original was certainly the main theme there.

I didn't limit myself to WL2, but you can't expect everyone to be as awesome and open-minded as me.

Likewise, before even hearing about the crab example you dismissed the whole idea, so don't point at that.

You're very observant. Yes, I dismissed the whole idea and explained why. The crab thing merely illustrated my position.

Your whole argument was fucking retarded from the start. Because hey, once you hear about something you can claim that anybody could have come up with it.

Right. Because only a scientist could come up with the idea of giant crabs.

My point was that concept artists and designers don't lack creativity, especially if you look at the games of the olden days, when it was flowing unrestricted. Why fix what isn't broken?

HURR YELLOW BLOOD LOOK I CAN GOOGLE YELLOW BLOOD IT MEANS I COULD HAVE DONE IT TOO. Maybe it didn't occur to you that a certain educational background can give people ideas that they otherwise wouldn't have.

Plenty of games had differently colored blood - green and yellow mostly - for visual variety. Googling green and yellow blood and reading a bit about it to add a line or two explaining it isn't as far fetched as you think.

 

[hiver]

Not only were you spouting hilarious nonsense - which you seem to have forgotten now, suddenly, although its all one link away, but you have to do it all over again on W2 forums under an alt.
snakeoil... really? couldnt you come up with something better?


(oh gee... i cant wait for "im not that guy... and i cant understand satire even if it hits me in the ass and legs either" - inevitable response)

Y'know, I'm withdrawing my support for this science bullshit and backing VD's bitching 100%. It says on their profile page that they're pretty much all fans of Fallout 3.

Holy shit you're right. Three, count em, THREE FALLOUT 3 FANBOYS.
BURN IT ALL DOWN.

Well im tryiiing!

but you wont let me....

 

[FeelTheRads]

Yes, I dismissed the whole idea and explained why

You explained absolutely nothing. Your argument was always reverse-design.

Plenty of games had differently colored blood - green and yellow mostly - for visual variety. Googling green and yellow blood and reading a bit about it to add a line or two explaining it isn't as far fetched as you think.

Myeah, reverse-designer at work.

The point is that maybe it was designed from the start based on that guy's educational background, not thrown together first and then some explanations cobbled together. Maybe they wouldn't have come up with what they did if that guy didn't have medical training, no matter how smart you think you are by Googling shit after the fact is done.
Oh yeah, and the wheel? Totally obvious man. Just Google wheel. You tell me you couldn't invent that shit by yourself? It's a round thing that takes you places. Anybody could have come up with it.

Also, just to piss off AoD fanbois, your reverse-designer mentality clearly shows in AoD and is probably the main reason why it sucks.

Edit:
I also like how you conveniently ignored this:

In the Matt Chatt wiith Sandy Petersen, the latter mentions that he majored in Zoology. Many of the crazy lovecraftian monsters he came up with for Call of Cthulhu were inspired by the lifecycle of some real-world bug or parasite.

Or maybe you didn't ignore it. Just figured out that if you knew what bug or parasite it was about you could have just Googled it and then go "HAH LAME TOTALLY COULD HAVE COME UP WITH THAT TOO".

 

[Gakkone]

Jesus christ. The Codex certainly is the go-to place when you just want to discuss! something ANYTHING MUST DISCUSS!

 

[St. Toxic]

In fact, I've lost any hope that I had in science after seeing their game prefs. The future is surely doomed, unless the middle east uses their djinn-power to conquer the decadent west.

Oh yeah, and the wheel? Totally obvious man. Just Google wheel. You tell me you couldn't invent that shit by yourself? It's a round thing that takes you places. Anybody could have come up with it.

I sincerely doubt it was invented by an engineer. Most probably, circular objects had a ceremonial value before anything else. Islam has all the answers as always.

Also,

"-We need SCIENCE! ideas for healing items."
"-Hmm, how about food?"
"-Yeah, I guess that works. What else?"
"-Well, drink. You gotta have drink with your food."
"-Water?"
"-Not just any water! Irradiated water, like out of a toilet bowl."
"-What?"
"-Look. Suppose the radiation has altered the chemical composition of water mixed with toilet-cleaner, and fused the two together, creating a substance that *cleans* the wounds, be they external or internal. Preventing infection is, after all, a vital part of the healing process."
"-Hm, that makes sense. Good thing we hired you SCIENCE! chaps."

 

[Phelot]

The point is that maybe it was designed from the start based on that guy's educational background, not thrown together first and then some explanations cobbled together. Maybe they wouldn't have come up with what they did if that guy didn't have medical training

Yeah, definitely and that was part of my point.

To further use Marathon as an example, while the Pfhor may have been designed by someone with intimate knowledge of biology and medicine, the distances between planets used within the story are waaaaaaay off The point being, they obviously didn't have an astronomer on staff when writing the story background.

Sorry, I'll shut up about Marathon now

 

[Vault Dweller]

"-Look. Suppose the radiation has altered the chemical composition of water mixed with toilet-cleaner, and fused the two together, creating a substance that *cleans* the wounds, be they external or internal. Preventing infection is, after all, a vital part of the healing process."

 

[almondblight]

Phelot Didn't Greg Kirkpatrick have some kind of scientific background?