Development Info Putting the science back in Wasteland 2's science fiction

[TwinkieGorilla]

You're right.

About what?

 

[markec]

They should have just watched this movie to see a realistic vision of the future.

 

[felipepepe]

You're right. Who's ever heard of hermit crabs? Every fucking child, apparently (the scientists of tomorrow!).

Even Cleve did a quest in Grimoire that you have to find a shell for a hermit crab...

 

[Vault Dweller]

The funny thing is that even the stereotypical, "wacky" and unscientific idea of a post apocalyptic wasteland is based on science.

The idea that radiation causes mutations comes from science. It's not fantasy, it's not magic.

The idea that radiation produces giant monsters is pure fantasy though - a pulp "sci-fi" staple.

 

[A user named cat]

 

[Vault Dweller]

But hey, according with VD everybody could come up with that anyway because LOL LOOK KIDZ BOOKZ HAHAHA GET IT EVEN KIDS COULD COME UP WITH IT ITZ SO OBVIOUS.

My point was that hermit crabs are hardly an obscure creature and giant crabs near watery areas are hardly a novelty concept - they are second only to giant rats. TES games, Wizardry, RoA and Drakensang, Risen 2, Pathfinder, etc.

Also scientists are hacks who can't really tell how a creature would evolve...

How a tiny crab would evolve in a giant fucking crab who will need tons of food in a low-food environment because most species would be dead?

 

[FeelTheRads]

which is that they could have come up with that hermit-crab idea on their own

Well, the fact that someone could come up with something is not really an argument. The question is not if they could have but if they would have. I'm sure plenty of people could have come up with the 50s look for Fallout. Because hey, everybody knows the 50s existed, right? I bet there's even kids books about the 50s. But an idea is nothing without the proper execution. For example, Interplay hiring artists with classical art training. Was that useless as well? After all, I'm sure they could have found plenty of people who can draw skeletons? And if not, they could have certainly checked on the internet. Unbelievable amount of skeleton pictures there, man.

 

[SwiftCrack]

This is like a Romney campaign thing to cut scientific funding. Crabs, really?

 

[Vault Dweller]

which is that they could have come up with that hermit-crab idea on their own

Well, the fact that someone could come up with something is not really an argument. The question is not if they could have but if they would have. I'm sure plenty of people could have come up with the 50s look for Fallout. Because hey, everybody knows the 50s existed, right? I bet there's even kids books about the 50s.

It's based not on the 50s but on the 50s sci-fi - how people in the 50s imagined the future.

But an idea is nothing without the proper execution.

Are we still taking about giant creatures here?

 

[FeelTheRads]

It's based not on the 50s but on the 50s sci-fi - how people in the 50s imagined the future.

Wow... thanks... that's a revelation.

Are we still taking about giant creatures here?

"We used radiation as a very simple gaming mechanism to argue that it makes animals super large, because everyone knows radiation makes things super-large... we'll just take that one as a granted,"

I never argued that everything has to bend to hard science. On the contrary actually.

Edit: Actually, I don't think I even argued that hard science is a necessity. Only that I don't see how it can hurt and that it can bring in new ideas and help with the "semblance of truth". Basically, what's pissing me off is this "anybody could do it from Wikipedia" next-gen, illiterate attitude.

 

[Infinitron]

The idea that radiation produces giant monsters is pure fantasy though - a pulp "sci-fi" staple.

But that idea wouldn't exist without that universally recognized scientific context.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Wow... thanks... that's a revelation.

Then why talk about the look of 50s?

Only that I don't see how it can hurt and that it can bring in new ideas ...

And bring new ideas they did.

- What creatures live near water?
- Easy. Crabs.
- Crabs?
- Crabs! But not regular crabs, no, no. GIANT crabs! Wearing old cars as shells!
- But after so many years and the whole living in and near water thing, won't cars rust through and fall apart?
- Chill, bro. Science got your back! Here is a little known fact for you: radiation prevents rust and corrosion, so the cars are in mint condition. But with crabs inside of them, obviously. Hell, you can kill the crab and then drive the car, if you want to. Or climb on top of the crab and he'll drive it for you. Are we on a roll today or what?
- Fucking scientists! What will they think of next? Btw, what creatures live in caves?
- Easy. Rats.
- Rats?
- Rats! But no ordinary rats...

 

[Vault Dweller]

The idea that radiation produces giant monsters is pure fantasy though - a pulp "sci-fi" staple.

But that idea wouldn't exist without that universally recognized scientific context.

What's your point? Is anyone arguing that not a single scientifically correct idea should be present in games?

 

[kaizoku]

Well, Fallout did use FEV to explain most of the mutations, including stuff like radscorpions. Of course, most people missed that and just assumed that things grew big because of radiation.

I stand corrected.
I did miss out on FEV being the cause for critter mutations.

 

[Excommunicator]

This just validates the concerns of the other thread.

"We research nuclear disasters and testing zones to come up with scientifically plausible ideas, reaching conclusions of hermit crabs absorbing radiation... then we made them grow extremely fast to gigantic proportions because FUCKING AWESOME"

To be clear, I have nothing against the process they're going through (do some research, gather some information, use that information in devising an interesting idea). No one can complain about a bit of science and a bit of pure imagination coming together to form ideas
But as for hiring this group of outside contractors to do this for money on a project where they will almost certainly run out of money before it's released: what a fucking waste of time and money.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Then why talk about the look of 50s?

The fuck... I'm talking about the 50s look because anybody could come up and say HEY I WANT THIS GAME TO HAVE THIS 50s look. That's called an idea. The execution is what resulted in Fallout, that is not a look simply copied, but blended into a retro-scifi look. That's why you need people who actually know what they're doing instead of reading Wikipedia. Although, I'm sure nobody cares in the end except for the cool factor, right?

And bring new ideas they did.

Well, see, this is what I'm talking about. In case you didn't figure out my analogy with classically trained artists it goes something like this:

- InXile ask for scientist advice
- LOL FOR CRABS HAHA

- Interplay hires artists with classical training
- LOL TO DRAW SKELETONS HAHA

Look, I don't know in the end how useful their scientist advice will be, but your dismissal is based on just supposition. And don't tell me it isn't, you dismissed it even before they gave this example with the crab, because hey, you just know it won't be useful.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

But do be honest, so far the evidence seems to indicate that it won't be very useful indeed.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, see, this is what I'm talking about. In case you didn't figure out my analogy with classically trained artists it goes something like this:

- InXile ask for scientist advice
- LOL FOR CRABS HAHA

- Interplay hires artists with classical training
- LOL TO DRAW SKELETONS HAHA

The analogy is silly. There is a huge fucking difference between skills required to come up with the giant crab idea and skills required to model and animate one.

Look, I don't know in the end how useful their scientist advice will be, but your dismissal is based on just supposition. And don't tell me it isn't, you dismissed it even before they gave this example with the crab, because hey, you just know it won't be useful.

Like I said in the other thread, there were two possibilities: either the scientists would go with scientifically realistic flora and fauna, which would be boring, or they would go with wacky shit like giant crabs, in which case their involvement isn't necessary at all.

 

[FeelTheRads]

either the scientists would go with scientifically realistic flora and fauna, which would be boring,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNLfNe12BKE

Fucking boring man. Where is that robot with spinning knives? That's SO exciting.

The analogy is silly. There is a huge fucking difference between skills required to come up with the giant crab idea and skills required to model and animate one.

Still don't get it. What I mean is you're dismissing the whole thing based on a single thing. Like it would be dismissing classical training, because hey, who needs that for drawing skeletons?

Edit: In other words, they could be used for more than CRABS. The question is they will, but you just somehow know they won't be.

 

[Vault Dweller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNLfNe12BKE

Fucking boring man. Where is that robot with spinning knives? That's SO exciting.

Seriously?

Still don't get it. What I mean is you're dismissing the whole thing based on a single thing.

Should I dismiss the "single thing" - the first and only example given - and assume that the rest will be totally awesome instead? Would that be a better approach?

Like it would be dismissing classical training, because hey, who needs that for drawing skeletons?

While the benefits of classic art training are clear, the benefits of science consultants aren't.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Seriously?

No. I guess not.

While the benefits of classic art training are clear, the benefits of science consultants aren't.

Yes. I guess you're right.

 

[St. Toxic]

How about an elephant tortoise that uses a hot air balloon as its shell, enabling it to fly?

 

[felipepepe]

Metal Slug 3 had a cool giant-crab using tanks as shell:

I doubt that they needed a scientific OR military advisor for this...

In fact, googling "hermit crab enemy/boss" you'll see that most games have some variant on the subject, from FF VI to Banjo&Kazooie and Kirby.

 

[St. Toxic]

Shows which games had scientific consultants and which didn't.

 

[Angthoron]

"I saw hermit crabs down by the water."
"Fascinating creatures, I have dissected a pair in my lab this afternoon."