Precinct - Police Quest spiritual successor by Jim Walls

[buzz]

I'm sure that his team and Himalaya Studio's games are going to turn the best of the bunch, but he shouldn't piss on his less fortunate peers either .

EDIT: @Infinitron, being indie means that it's not okay to be incompetent at marketing and sugarcoating your campaigns? Because it's either that or Jim's previous work that we can criticize and compare in here.

 

[Blackthorne]

I'm not pissing on them; like I said, I'm just disappointed and frustrated. I feel it was a poor campaign, full of mis-steps and I don't feel the project managers were really listening to what people were telling them. If you want people's money to fund your game, you'd really better listen to them. In the end, it IS your project, but if you want money from people that don't get an ROI, you be involved with them. Investors who really only care about their return are a different story than backers who are fans.

And yeah, I feel like we're making a great game. Hopefully we will see, "FeelTheRads". It may be "blah blah blah" to you, but the fact of the matter is I produced a demo on my own, without using other people's money - I didn't ask people to fund my proof of concept. I asked them to back a game.


Bt

 

[buzz]

Except in this particular case we were talking about people who want some sort of ROI, the game itself. Your complaint was that the "get the game" pledge tier is too high, which is missing the point of doing this whole kickstarter thing, not just that of getting the game, but seeing it being made in the first place. Again, take your project as an example, 1000 people gave you the 10k out of the 63k you've got at the end by taking the lowest pledge. You've got more or less the same amount of money instead from the 78 backers who wanted the big box edition at $120.

Honestly, there are many reasons why this one failed, like the campaign being done too late, when the marketing savvy ones are better received, with the PQ series not being as popular as the other Sierra titles or because the game was in first person perspective which probably scared a few people. Kickstarter campaigns by old-school designer also probably took a blow after the DFA money scandal.

 

[suejak]

Again, take your project as an example, 1000 people gave you the 10k out of the 63k you've got at the end by taking the lowest pledge. You've got more or less the same amount of money instead from the 78 backers who wanted the big box edition at $120.

What's your point?

 

[Kz3r0]

Again, take your project as an example, 1000 people gave you the 10k out of the 63k you've got at the end by taking the lowest pledge. You've got more or less the same amount of money instead from the 78 backers who wanted the big box edition at $120.

What's your point?

That people want teh goodiez I think.

 

[tuluse]

How does his point related to anything though? Is Blackthorne not glad that he got 10k from those 1000 backers? Would it have been better to have $30 as the minimum and have only 330 backers from those 1k (if he would even have got that many)? It's the same amount of money, but less exposure. Maybe raising the lowest tier would have turned off many people who pledged more just because it felt wrong to them.

 

[Blackthorne]

A lot of people often start at the low tier, and will raise their pledge as well, if you demonstrate more valuable qualities to your game and production team in the course of the the Kickstarter, too. And, I suppose, I'd rather have 1,000 people playing my game rather then 333. If they liked it, that's 3 times the amount of people that could tell a friend or two about us. I think having a reasonably priced entry tier for digital download is the way to go, and many other Kickstarter Campaigns have done the same.


Bt

 

[buzz]

What's your point?

The point is that people want "teh thingz" to be made, not necessarily the fucking goodies. Which is why there are kickstarter campaigns about putting a statue of Tesla in Silicon Valley or funding the Mermaid Parade from Coney Island post-Sandy Hurricane. Most people (or so I think) didn't pledge for QFI because they wanted a cheaper 10 bucks version of the game, they just thought that it's worth giving money to them because they have a nice project with a nice demo and they want to see more of it. Many kickstarters also have reward tiers of 1 or 5 dollars where you only get a mention, a thank you note or a postcard. It's not about the postcard, it's about helping the project.

EDIT: At least that's what kickstarter was about. It's more or less charity with incentives as extra.

 

[Infinitron]

Getting desperate... http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/precinctgame/precinct/posts/574396

The last point, and probably the most important one, that I would like to make on the funding system, is the non-refundability. That is the one thing in my opinion where Kickstarter is better and it's a crucial point. Robert said during the Reddit that the non-refundability is implemented to prevent trolls from making fake bids. Sure, it keeps away trolls. It keeps away backers, too, and lots of them. Forget about the trolls, they come and go a few minutes later. But if we want to make our first target in time and actually get this project to effective completion, then what is needed is credibility so people can pledge with confidence. Confidence works both ways. Backers show they have confidence by pledging, Precinct needs to show it has confidence in its backers by allowing them to reduce their pledge or pull out entirely if they so desire. Get rid of the non-refundability – that's how you make this work. I had a long discussion about this with Robert yesterday. I believe that in the end I persuaded him that not only would it be good, but in fact necessary. If so, I would prefer that he tells that to you himself so it's official. The only thing here is that we can't just flip a switch to disable non-refundability. It takes a few days of programming and making sure it works with the payment methods. It's definitely on the table and I sure hope they will go for it.

 

[Stabwound]

Holy shit, this guy is their community manager and he makes an official post with gems like this?

I would like to address several things here. First is the time limit. Many people seem to think they're going to have to wait forever before getting anything, if they ever get anything, and meanwhile their money is pledged. Even if it's 1 dollar, it just doesn't feel right. Well, first off there actually IS a time limit and that time limit is defined by how much longer the devs are willing to work for free. Keep in mind that money only gets charged when the stages are reached. With currently only a good $10K pledged and already several months of preparation for Precinct behind them, I can say the first stage of 25K better be reached very soon. Same counts for the other stages – there is probably more time to reach those of course, but those guys would still like to get a pay check every now and then so, no, development will not run into eternity.

Give us money! Give us money! I'm not sure why, but come on, you guys better give us money soon.

This game looks like a turd, they inspire very little confidence, and no one seems to even care. I like their reddit AMA where almost no one asked anything and even fewer questions were answered. This is pretty entertaining. Go away, Jim Walls; no one wants your game.

 

[RK47]

 

[Keshik]

Poor Jim

 

[Name]

He taught me the proper way of getting in/out of a car on a highway.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Go away, Jim Walls

hurr durr i dont want old devlopers maeking new gaems cuz i dont

 

[Keshik]

He taught me the proper way of getting in/out of a car on a highway.

And to never get close to drunks. (and that shooting them is also a bad idea)

 

[Stabwound]

Go away, Jim Walls

hurr durr i dont want old devlopers maeking new gaems cuz i dont

I do, but not when they've been out of it for so long and are completely out of touch. Let's face it: old timers coming back to kickstarter haven't exactly been showing anything of much promise, and this one is by far the worst yet. There are new guys, like the dudes doing Quest For Infamy, who are indie dudes and doing a much better job at creating something not only interesting but also hearkens back to the old Sierra days.

Which old adventure dev has shown any promise so far? Spaceventure might be okay, but that's about it. Broken Age, Hero U, hell even Mobius look pretty bad to mediocore.

Jim Walls' game, pitch and entire promotion and now new fundraiser is just god awful. Fact.

 

[FeelTheRads]

old timers coming back to kickstarter haven't exactly been showing anything of much promise

Don't really agree. From the Sierra developers this is the only one I have absolutely no interest in.
That's not the point, though. Why aren't they allowed to try? Do they disturb the fabric of the popamole?

 

[Stabwound]

Of course they can try, but Precinct looked exactly like the popamole no one wants.

 

[Blackthorne]

Jim Walls had the chance to partner up with Britney Brimhall from Himalaya and AGDI - he and his producing partner (Robert Lindley) chose not to go with her (and Himalaya), and I really think that was to their detriment. Their older experience and ideas, mixed with some new blood in the adventure scene, could have produced an interesting game. Instead, they went with something that seemed a little too generic. Their "driving" video sequences would have been all right, I think, if the game play was mixed with traditional 3rd person adventure game asthetics. Their approach was really wrong for the kind of audience that would have supported them - I think they were trying to swing for the fences, and create something that had a broader appeal - but those people, obviously, didn't come out to support a kickstarter. They would have been better off, maybe, making a smaller, more traditional adventure game - making a little money on that, get their name back out there, and then try for something maybe a little different. Instead they have nothing.

It's kind of sad, really. (I also appreciate the shout our to what we do. Thanks, man.) I do think that you could have an awesome game combining some old blood with the new blood, though.


Bt

 

[Infinitron]

Jim Walls had the chance to partner up with Britney Brimhall from Himalaya and AGDI - he and his producing partner (Robert Lindley) chose not to go with her (and Himalaya)

:facepalm:

 

[Blackthorne]

Jim Walls had the chance to partner up with Britney Brimhall from Himalaya and AGDI - he and his producing partner (Robert Lindley) chose not to go with her (and Himalaya)

:facepalm:

Yeah. uh, it really came as a shock to her, personally - they'd been talking for a while. She's a police officer as well, and it really seemed like they were going to work together. She found out they weren't.... when they launched the Kickstarter.


Bt

 

[Stabwound]

I think this quote from the Jim Walls AMA explains it well enough:

The guy and his team are just completely out of touch. I don't think I was far off when I said Walls probably saw his grandkids playing Call of Duty and went "oh boy, I really want to get in on this!"

It's almost painful to read that revelation about him dismissing Britney Brimhall and AGDI for this. Wow, just incredible. An oldschool style police-oriented adventure game, well done, would have been awesome and almost definitely would have succeeded better than this thing is. No one wants Precinct or a game like this.

 

[buzz]

it really makes you wonder how many of the complaints that Codex addresses towards new games are regarding the quality and the realistic expectations from such games and how many are just delusional and narrow-minded points of view.

I'm not saying that Jim didn't fuck up by not cooperating with AGDI and didn't do his share of mistakes, but FFS people, Police Quest is the last Sierra franchise where you should complain whether the game is in first person or not. Only someone who looked the name on Google and found a few images would say such a retarded statement like "Jim saw his grandkids playing Call of Duty so he changed his mind".

I understand someone's reticence towards something new, but with PQ I find it baffling because it's really not a "new" thing by the standards of the series. Traditional is the last thing thing to call these games that are infamous for lacking typical puzzles and that later spawned a popular tactical shooter series.

 

[suejak]

it really makes you wonder how many of the complaints that Codex addresses towards new games are regarding the quality and the realistic expectations from such games and how many are just delusional and narrow-minded points of view.
I'm not saying that Jim didn't fuck up by not cooperating with AGDI and didn't do his share of mistakes, but FFS people, Police Quest is the last Sierra franchise where you should complain whether the game is in first person or not. Only someone who looked the name on Google and found a few images would say such a retarded statement like "Jim saw his grandkids playing Call of Duty so he changed his mind".
I understand someone's reticence towards something new, but with PQ I find it baffling because it's really not a "new" thing by the standards of the series. Traditional is the last thing thing to call these games that are infamous for lacking typical puzzles and that later spawned a popular tactical shooter series.

Jeeeeezus Christ, you have no fucking clue who you’re talking to here. You’re telling us that Police Quest might as well be first-person because of all the classic first-person Police Quest games?

You are completely assbackwards in your approach to the history of this series. My gut tells me you played SWAT 3 first and discovered them in reverse order or something, because you are saying some retarded shit.
Jim Walls made exclusively traditional point-and-click (text parser) adventure games. He never made anything first-person or “experimental”. He had nothing to do with any of the titles released after Police Quest 3.

Therefore, it is fucking absurd for this dinosaur to come back and give us a 3D-accelerated first-person game wherein your character is represented by the ubiquitous pair of bodiless hands holding some kind of weapon or tool. It is completely inconsistent for Jim Walls to pitch this kind of game, and it’s fucking absurd for him to pitch it as a “modern Police Quest”.
If you don’t get it because “Police Quest has been an experimental series,” then you’re just a clueless nub scrub. This man is a dinosaur from the era of basically traditional adventure games. It’s like if Alfred Hitchcock ran a Kickstarter for an action movie starring Will Smith fighting aliens and called it a return to form.

 

[buzz]

You’re telling us that Police Quest might as well be first-person because of all the classic first-person Police Quest games?

Yeah, fuck the new Tex Murphy for not following the "classic" formula of the first 2 games. What is this first person "popamole" detective game?

He never made anything first-person or “experimental”.

That's beyond fucking wrong. First of all like already mentioned, the series was already by itself experimental. Not because of the perspective, but the way the game was built around strict police procedures rather than doing solving typical adventure-gaming puzzles. Then take in account the other games that Jim worked on, like Codename Iceman (where you control a submarine) or Blade Runner (where the game happens in real time and you have some action sequences). Then also take into account the other PQ games (where Jim didn't work but they should obviously fucking count).

Therefore, it is fucking absurd for this dinosaur to come back and give us a 3D-accelerated first-person game wherein your character is represented by the ubiquitous pair of bodiless hands holding some kind of weapon or tool. It is completely inconsistent for Jim Walls to pitch this kind of game, and it’s fucking absurd for him to pitch it as a “modern Police Quest”.

Why? It's an adventure game about a police officer, where the realistic use of procedures is very important. This is pretty much the only thing holding the entire series together.

It's just pisses me off how people dismiss this as a fucking game for the "modern audiences" just because it has a first person perspective. It reminds me of a quote from that Old Man Murray article:

The action-packed Myst introduces casual gamers to the pleasures of Tomb Raider.

First-person adventure games have more than always been a thing, Rise of the Dragon, Myst series, The Last Express, the previously mentioned Tex Murphy games after the first 2, the new Sherlock Holmes games, Penumbra games and so on. There is nothing inherently wrong with using that perspective and honestly, Police Quest does not benefit (edit: nor does it suffer, both are equally viable in my opinion) from using the classical perspective in the first place. The complaint about being able to drive is out-of-touch with the actual series where driving was a thing since game 1.
Meanwhile, this is the typical camera of your "traditional"-looking, modern popamole adventure game. It controls like a mix of Grim Fandango and normal adventures, when it's not a QTE-fest of course.

Spoiler

Oh fuck, look at that pre-rendered 2D background, so .

I like the irony of your analogy with Hitchcock, whose one of his most famous movies is North by Northwest and who is also fairly famous for jumping from mystery/thriller to romance or even to straight-up horror. Or how many directors and actors are critically acclaimed when they move out of their comfort zone. Films are the last place where you should look in order to prove a point.