Player character/party should be punished for making themselves walking targets

[DraQ]

Master thieves are all gnomes

No. Fuck your autistic gamist bullshit.

Besides, theft in public space shouldn't imply hiding.

Master thieves should be of any race/class/level combination capable of achieving sufficient ability score to pull it off.
Independently instanced depending on theft method.
Randomized (unless handcrafted) and occurring even before they are triggered to molest player.

Your objection to my solution, at base, is nothing more than "you are not fancy enough". Fuck fancy! My solution is based on feasibility.
Your alternative is full scale straight from-the-ground-up design for quest mod which good luck to you getting people do it.

If the game has crime system, it could mostly piggyback on it.
Mechanics, bitches.

Also, a fucking rock trap isn't a deus ex machina unless you're retarded.
It's a good and relatively safe way to waylay someone way more powerful than you.
Set up trap, if it fails to incapacitate/kill/or at least cripple party's/character's fighting ability, you GTFO, else you either finish the job or just dig out phat lewt from under the rocks.

 

[DraQ]

They're serviceable, as long as you follow the roads and paths. If you jump over rocks and ravines and climb steep mounts they're gonna take a while to catch up. Still, never "lost" one to evil geometry

Actually you can easily do it right next to Whiterun's gate of all places (you can cut some corners by jumping down the wall, and the AI gets stuck there forever until you use carriage), but otherwise it's almost unheard of.
Overall the AI performs admirably as long as you accept that you can't order it around while in combat. You can still use some nifty tactics if you position yourself relative to the AI and know how it fights.
There are mods giving increased depth of command too, up to high level tactics where you coordinate multiple squads doing shit like sneaking in and taking out sentries, apparently.

And depending on their morality they'll get angry with your crimes. I had the bosmer dude from riverwood go postal on me becausr I attacked a thalmor patrol unprovoked (admittedly not a very civilized thing to do).

ITZ like that thing BG and Wiz8 were talking about.

That's another reason to be alone.

Requiem, OTOH is a reason not to.

The BG2 example is a good idea for some quests but the Skyrim one is insane. If anything what most RPGs need is a damn morale check to keep xvarts from bothering the player.

This, pretty much.

Another reason to praise mods like Requiem - given sufficient disadvantage some enemies will flee before they're even hit once.
Although it would be nice if you could tell your followers to just let them go:
-Ok, he yields and I'm feeling merciful today, you don't need to ki... - *AAARGHhgurgleplorp...!* - nevermind.

One thing that does make sense about level scaling is that the player probably shouldn't encounter enemies so weak they'd clearly be terrified of him. And the daedric armour in elder scrolls isn't just 'fancy armour', it's fucking demonic armour that can only be acquired by killing incredibly powerful foes. Robbing a guy in daedric armour would be like deciding to rob a cop in riot gear.

Make it "driving a tank down the street".

> you shoot the tank with your pistol for 0 damage.
> tank fires its coaxial machinegun hitting you for 9568 damage.
> you're now a cloud of red mist settling down on cratered pavement.

That said, the PC in an elder scrolls game is also usually walking around with half a dozen or more daedric artifacts and legendary items halfway through the game, and presumably at least once in a while should be approached or outright attacked by an organized force of mercenaries out to deliver said items to a wealthy figure- the player ends up doing this shit all the time after all. Mind you, once the player gets strong enough, he should have the option to retaliate against whoever is sending goons after him. Whether that takes the form of sneaking into his mansion at night and cutting his throat, or storming in during broad daylight and hewing everyone apart.

 

[Delterius]

Usually, in fantasy, the weak-looking character or party are attacked by thieves. If you do a solo run, you'll always be attacked (unless, of course, you are looking like Sauron) and if you are doing a party run, the attacks will be decreasing as you level up/do main quest/get better equipments.

This can go either way: a weak party is more likely to be targeted by thieves, but a more publicly known party can be targeted by powerful groups that would not care about the weak party.

And if your wizard wears the Wizard Hat and a quarterstaff, they get targeted by enemies twice as hard. At which point I wear robes anyway because frying fools is a great pastime.


Really, it goes on and on. The sort of systemic reactivity people are talking about here is no simple matter.

 

[DraQ]

The sort of systemic reactivity people are talking about here is no simple matter.

It's so bittersweet that Bethesda seems to be the only of the somewhat mainstream companies that even tries.

 

[Delterius]

The sort of systemic reactivity people are talking about here is no simple matter.

It's so bittersweet that Bethesda seems to be the only of the somewhat mainstream companies that even tries.

Well, there's that and there's being ugly in Arcanum.

 

[DraQ]

The sort of systemic reactivity people are talking about here is no simple matter.

It's so bittersweet that Bethesda seems to be the only of the somewhat mainstream companies that even tries.

Well, there's that and there's being ugly in Arcanum.

And yet it's Bethesda's games that are apparently LARP simulators.

Spoiler

 

[laclongquan]

Master thieves are all gnomes

No. Fuck your autistic gamist bullshit.

Besides, theft in public space shouldn't imply hiding.

Master thieves should be of any race/class/level combination capable of achieving sufficient ability score to pull it off.
Independently instanced depending on theft method.
Randomized (unless handcrafted) and occurring even before they are triggered to molest player.

Your objection to my solution, at base, is nothing more than "you are not fancy enough". Fuck fancy! My solution is based on feasibility.
Your alternative is full scale straight from-the-ground-up design for quest mod which good luck to you getting people do it.

If the game has crime system, it could mostly piggyback on it.
Mechanics, bitches.

Also, a fucking rock trap isn't a deus ex machina unless you're retarded.
It's a good and relatively safe way to waylay someone way more powerful than you.
Set up trap, if it fails to incapacitate/kill/or at least cripple party's/character's fighting ability, you GTFO, else you either finish the job or just dig out phat lewt from under the rocks.

A fucking trap is an easy experience you can find way to avoid. It's fast to pass, because once you pass it, no more. But a stealthed gnome who fucked you in the ass then run away, all the while laughing to the bank, is a double irritant. You want to catch his scrawnie ass to bash your fist in. This is a feasible technique to troll your players.

 

[DraQ]

A fucking trap is an easy experience you can find way to avoid. It's fast to pass, because once you pass it, no more.

So is a bunch of lowlifes attacking you with rusty swords and shitty shortbows. The difference is trap has a chance to work and even better chance to let them survive if it doesn't.

Ever heard of variety? Not all instances of ruffians trying to get your high level stuff should be rock traps or even traps at all.

But a stealthed gnome who fucked you in the ass then run away

Also, I'm not interested in your gnome fetish.

 

[laclongquan]

Said the scalie boy~

And a trap is easy. Once you get hit, it's done. You can healing or resurrecting but tat's another matter.

But a fucking thief will have at least two seconds to taunt you, from when he take your stuffs, to when he enter the exit zone. All the way laughing maniacally.

That's the difference.

 

[DraQ]

And a trap is easy. Once you get hit, it's done.

Can you read? Trap is a very good opener if you want to even the odds a bit and allows you to GTFO if it fails completely, while also allowing possibility of avoiding all combat and just having to sift through the rocks.

So:
trap ineffective or only slightly damaging - bandits do their best to GTFO, you might even fail to see them, they may try again.
trap moderately effective, wounds, disabling, party members taken out, etc. - bandits attack tactically trying to finish your greately weakened ass off, will try to retreat if combat takes a bad turn.
player failed to pay attention - bandits dig up your corpses and loot them laughing all the way back to their hideout.

But a fucking thief will have at least two seconds to taunt you, from when he take your stuffs, to when he enter the exit zone. All the way laughing maniacally.

That's the difference.

And I just cast AoE immobilizing spell just before he exits than walk up to him and cut his throat, while going as I did when it happened in BG1.

That's retarded way to do it.

A good way is having an NPC brush by in the street, like many other NPCs in similar circumstances - no message informing you of anything, no sound cue, nothing - then you noticing massive dent in party's budget the next time you try to buy something, or maybe your awsum sword missing when you try to pull it out.
At most you find a small note in your inventory that wasn't there when you last looked: "Problem?".

 

[laclongquan]

You are disregarding the fact that talented a thief can avoid your AoE spell? I dont say 100%, mind. Just half of the times can be quite irritating.

And the visual cues of a red target running away should cue players in. Of course, if he set paused at hostile he might, MIGHT be close enough to do something.

 

[Norfleet]

At most you find a small note in your inventory that wasn't there when you last looked: "Problem?".

Thieves don't taunt their victims, it's unprofessional. If the victim doesn't discover anything is missing or why until it's far too late, why tip him off that anything is wrong, when you can just allow him to think he lost it? Thieves are running a business here. Of course, the game narrator is free to taunt the player.

It's very unlikely, however, that a thief makes any kind of living pickpocketing adventurers specifically, so whichever thief managed to bump your party is probably thinking of retirement right about now. Once you get to the level of wealth and power even a low-level adventurer has, you stop considering picking pockets in the street as a worthwhile source of income, and turn to more lucrative ventures, like embezzlement and financial fraud.

If you want to really get players, send them procedurally generated 419s. Stuff like that is hero schmuck bait.

 

[DraQ]

You are disregarding the fact that talented a thief can avoid your AoE spell? I dont say 100%, mind. Just half of the times can be quite irritating.

And the visual cues of a red target running away should cue players in. Of course, if he set paused at hostile he might, MIGHT be close enough to do something.

Jesus, you're retarded. Why should thief ever become hostile without getting attacked or run away unless detected during attempt?
a character brushes against you, and walks away normally, your inventory helpfully informs you that something is gone *the moment you explicitly check it* and not a second sooner.
So unless you are going to make full inventory check every time you pass by an NPC you are unlikely to catch your thief immediately after the act unless he fails a check against your/partymember's perception. If he doesn't steal anything non-generic, you might have trouble tracking him at all.

And I generally will have something to throw at escaping thief - or do you propose thieves to be fantastic plastic class that's immune to everything?

At most you find a small note in your inventory that wasn't there when you last looked: "Problem?".

Thieves don't taunt their victims, it's unprofessional.

Hence "at most".

 

[mondblut]

Obviously you should not be attacked by a brigand but by a high level enemy of equal potential.

So you are too lazy to go out looking for loot and xp, and want it to come to you on its own legs?

Kids these days...

 

[Norfleet]

And I generally will have something to throw at escaping thief - or do you propose thieves to be fantastic plastic class that's immune to everything?

If the thief escapes into a crowd, lobbing a fireball or an axe at him may not be a good plan.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Once again, Oblivion has ALL the answers - the Mythic Dawn agents use summoned equipment so when they die all that remains is a shitty robe and a potion.

 

[laclongquan]

You are disregarding the fact that talented a thief can avoid your AoE spell? I dont say 100%, mind. Just half of the times can be quite irritating.

And the visual cues of a red target running away should cue players in. Of course, if he set paused at hostile he might, MIGHT be close enough to do something.

Jesus, you're retarded. Why should thief ever become hostile without getting attacked or run away unless detected during attempt?
a character brushes against you, and walks away normally, your inventory helpfully informs you that something is gone *the moment you explicitly check it* and not a second sooner.
So unless you are going to make full inventory check every time you pass by an NPC you are unlikely to catch your thief immediately after the act unless he fails a check against your/partymember's perception. If he doesn't steal anything non-generic, you might have trouble tracking him at all.

And I generally will have something to throw at escaping thief - or do you propose thieves to be fantastic plastic class that's immune to everything?

At most you find a small note in your inventory that wasn't there when you last looked: "Problem?".

Thieves don't taunt their victims, it's unprofessional.

Hence "at most".

Straw argument, as expected from scalie boy. We are talking about gameplay and mechanic here. Why would the engine not show him as hostile after he perform a thieving action on you? WHat would you need? A fucking golden gilted cue card?

 

[JarlFrank]

Why the fuck would you notice being pickpocketed by a fucking master thief on the level of Garrett, unless he fails his check and noticeably touches you or is seen doing obvious stealy movements? Hundreds of tourists lose their wallets to pickpockets each year and only notice the moment they want to take the wallet out of their pocket, wondering where the fuck it has gone because the thief was a professional who knows how to take someone's shit without that someone noticing.

Heck, when you reach a suficient level of pickpocket mastery insome RPGs, you can take someone's boots off and run away without him noticing at all. So why would the player notice if a thief of similar level steals some gold pieces off him, if the player can steal the clothes off someone's back without being noticed?

Why would the engine show an NPC as hostile if the player has no legitimate reason to see him as such, except for "the engine tells me so"?

 

[laclongquan]

Because you dont want your players get robbed unnoticably. It's a matter of balance. On one hand you want your players get trolled by almost nonresistable pickpockets, and release stress by killing those fucks. On the other hand you dont want them doing that unnoticed, or it would have been messy designs. Which is why pre-event: nondetectable stealth, and unresistable pickpocket, but post-event you must have detectable stealth.

 

[DraQ]

Straw argument, as expected from scalie boy.

We are talking about gameplay and mechanic here. Why would the engine not show him as hostile after he perform a thieving action on you? WHat would you need? A fucking golden gilted cue card?

Yep. Retarded.

Because you dont want your players get robbed unnoticably. It's a matter of balance. On one hand you want your players get trolled by almost nonresistable pickpockets, and release stress by killing those fucks. On the other hand you dont want them doing that unnoticed, or it would have been messy designs. Which is why pre-event: nondetectable stealth, and unresistable pickpocket, but post-event you must have detectable stealth.

Definitely retarded.

If the thief escapes into a crowd, lobbing a fireball or an axe at him may not be a good plan.

In BG1 my go-to spell for such situations was Entangle.
In any case it's a moot point because no one remotely sane wants player to be immediately notified that a *stealthy* transfer of possessions has occurred.

 

[Crevice tab]

Because you dont want your players get robbed unnoticably. It's a matter of balance. On one hand you want your players get trolled by almost nonresistable pickpockets, and release stress by killing those fucks. On the other hand you dont want them doing that unnoticed, or it would have been messy designs. Which is why pre-event: nondetectable stealth, and unresistable pickpocket, but post-event you must have detectable stealth.

Skill checks. If the awareness/pickpocket/whatever isn't high enough then the player gets trolled by skilled thieves. On the other hand if the PC is skilled enough then he catches the thieves in the act and kills them or tortures them horribly depending on personal preference.

 

[DraQ]

Because you dont want your players get robbed unnoticably. It's a matter of balance. On one hand you want your players get trolled by almost nonresistable pickpockets, and release stress by killing those fucks. On the other hand you dont want them doing that unnoticed, or it would have been messy designs. Which is why pre-event: nondetectable stealth, and unresistable pickpocket, but post-event you must have detectable stealth.

Skill checks. If the awareness/pickpocket/whatever isn't high enough then the player gets trolled by skilled thieves. On the other hand if the PC is skilled enough then he catches the thieves in the act and kills them or tortures them horribly depending on personal preference.

What lac' wants basically has "I want to be a special" written all over it - pickpocket checks by NPCs should essentially autofail against the player, always alerting the victim.

 

[Crevice tab]

Because you dont want your players get robbed unnoticably. It's a matter of balance. On one hand you want your players get trolled by almost nonresistable pickpockets, and release stress by killing those fucks. On the other hand you dont want them doing that unnoticed, or it would have been messy designs. Which is why pre-event: nondetectable stealth, and unresistable pickpocket, but post-event you must have detectable stealth.

Skill checks. If the awareness/pickpocket/whatever isn't high enough then the player gets trolled by skilled thieves. On the other hand if the PC is skilled enough then he catches the thieves in the act and kills them or tortures them horribly depending on personal preference.

What lac' wants basically has "I want to be a special" written all over it - pickpocket checks by NPCs should essentially autofail against the player, always alerting the victim.

What's the point of pickpocketing if it always alerts the victim? Cause mild annoyance at having to kill the thief?

 

[DraQ]

Because you dont want your players get robbed unnoticably. It's a matter of balance. On one hand you want your players get trolled by almost nonresistable pickpockets, and release stress by killing those fucks. On the other hand you dont want them doing that unnoticed, or it would have been messy designs. Which is why pre-event: nondetectable stealth, and unresistable pickpocket, but post-event you must have detectable stealth.

Skill checks. If the awareness/pickpocket/whatever isn't high enough then the player gets trolled by skilled thieves. On the other hand if the PC is skilled enough then he catches the thieves in the act and kills them or tortures them horribly depending on personal preference.

What lac' wants basically has "I want to be a special" written all over it - pickpocket checks by NPCs should essentially autofail against the player, always alerting the victim.

What's the point of pickpocketing if it always alerts the victim? Cause mild annoyance at having to kill the thief?

Suicide by murderhobo.

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

First thing first, in order to have NPC thieves game needs a bit of asshole UI - player shouldn't be helpfully informed the moment he loses something from inventory, unless he willingly gives that item up.

The consequence of this would probably be a legion of casuals flooding the forums, claiming that the game is bugged, because their item disappeared. :D

- - -

Anyway, the game should definitely react to player stuff like wealth (people asking for loans/donations, a distant relative pops up and asks you to fund his business...), fame (you get admirers and enemies, powerful people start to notice you...), gear (for every artifact, there are bound to be some people who want it bad, ranging from "Please sell it to me!" to assasination attemps) or any other assets (why confront the badass hero and risk getting killed when you can just rob his house? Living thieves aren't stupid. And you get a possible quest of tracking them down.)

There is a wealth of interesting quests that could be initiated this way, especially if their challenge rating is relative to what initiated them, making you think twice about what you can and cannot pull off. Results in a nice feeling that you aren't the center of the universe and there are other/bigger things than you, something I'm sorely missing among the random-generated, level-scaled crap today.