Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Lacrymas]

It's still around 50ish% though. If I choose double durganized stilettos, like I have, and then plain clothing it says x1.43 faster, but if I choose plate it goes to x1.01 slower. I put 20 DEX in. What I did found out is that basically nothing stacks with DAoM pots, including gear like Gauntlets of Swift Action.

 

[Colour Spray]

I mean, improved alacrity and the robe of vecna are both absurd effects. Having a universal haste stat is probably what led to Pillars 2 having to slow down spell-casting in general as a compensatory measure.

In Lacrymas' case he's already gotten an extra action in the first second. That's going to add up to a lot of extra actions before combat finishes.

 

[Hyperion]

It's still around 50ish% though. If I choose double durganized stilettos, like I have, and then plain clothing it says x1.43 faster, but if I choose plate it goes to x1.01 slower. I put 20 DEX in. What I did found out is that basically nothing stacks with DAoM pots, including gear like Gauntlets of Swift Action.

For Dual Wielding, whose recovery frames are higher percent value of their total delay, DAoM is more valuable than it is for an Arquebus, whose attack delay is spent reloading, rather than 'recovering' from the shot. DAoM seems it doesn't stack with lots of things because in a lot of cases it caps out your recovery frames at 0.

Without buffs, this also means heavy armor is, again based on percentage, most disadvantageous for a dual wielding build because the fraction of your attack delay due to recovery frames is the highest. But, since your attack speed is capped out at 0 recovery frames - once this capped is reached, Plate is always better than Cloth because it offers all of the benefits (Beefy DR) without the major negative of recovery.

The main takeaways are: Plate is NEVER a true 50% less attack speed modifier due to the way recovery frames works. If you use lots of buffs every fight, Plate is excellent because you will hit the attack speed cap very quickly. An example of this is a Barbarian dual wielding Stilettos with Frenzy, Bloodlust, and Two Weapon Style using a Durganized Plate Armor is at 1.57x faster, where the cap is 1.69x faster. When you look at it, Bloodlust, Frenzy, and Two Weapon Style are pretty Vanilla in terms of buffing a Barbarian, and is something he'll have for the vast majority of fights from approximately level 7 onward. Another interesting thing about Barbarians is the talent Bloodlust, which removes recovery altogether if he lands the killing blow...which he'll be doing a lot with a properly built Carnage. Plate increases recovery by 50%, but Bloodlust completely removes it from the picture - aside from bosses where he won't be getting a kill every swing, why would you NOT use plate in this case?

If you build Durance using an Arquebus (which is a great idea because of his +10 Accuracy talent, Priest hasshitty base defenses, and it'll keep him safe to cast those spells faster), regular Plate and no modifications to his speed is only 1.01x slower than naked shooting.

This also suggests not to use your very limited Durgan ingots all on one character if you know they spend most of their time in a fight buffed. In PoE, Plate armor is actually too damn strong. On PotD where fights are long, and you get outnumbered this is important.

Note: All of my numbers are done using 10 Dex - upping your Dex closes the gap even further, because of a natural recovery frame decrease.

 

[Lacrymas]

How do we find out what the cap is or is it always x1.69 regardless of anything?

 

[Haplo]

It's still around 50ish% though. If I choose double durganized stilettos, like I have, and then plain clothing it says x1.43 faster, but if I choose plate it goes to x1.01 slower. I put 20 DEX in. What I did found out is that basically nothing stacks with DAoM pots, including gear like Gauntlets of Swift Action.

For Dual Wielding, whose recovery frames are higher percent value of their total delay, DAoM is more valuable than it is for an Arquebus, whose attack delay is spent reloading, rather than 'recovering' from the shot. DAoM seems it doesn't stack with lots of things because in a lot of cases it caps out your recovery frames at 0.

Without buffs, this also means heavy armor is, again based on percentage, most disadvantageous for a dual wielding build because the fraction of your attack delay due to recovery frames is the highest. But, since your attack speed is capped out at 0 recovery frames - once this capped is reached, Plate is always better than Cloth because it offers all of the benefits (Beefy DR) without the major negative of recovery.

The main takeaways are: Plate is NEVER a true 50% less attack speed modifier due to the way recovery frames works. If you use lots of buffs every fight, Plate is excellent because you will hit the attack speed cap very quickly. An example of this is a Barbarian dual wielding Stilettos with Frenzy, Bloodlust, and Two Weapon Style using a Durganized Plate Armor is at 1.57x faster, where the cap is 1.69x faster. When you look at it, Bloodlust, Frenzy, and Two Weapon Style are pretty Vanilla in terms of buffing a Barbarian, and is something he'll have for the vast majority of fights from approximately level 7 onward. Another interesting thing about Barbarians is the talent Bloodlust, which removes recovery altogether if he lands the killing blow...which he'll be doing a lot with a properly built Carnage. Plate increases recovery by 50%, but Bloodlust completely removes it from the picture - aside from bosses where he won't be getting a kill every swing, why would you NOT use plate in this case?

If you build Durance using an Arquebus (which is a great idea because of his +10 Accuracy talent, Priest hasshitty base defenses, and it'll keep him safe to cast those spells faster), regular Plate and no modifications to his speed is only 1.01x slower than naked shooting.

This also suggests not to use your very limited Durgan ingots all on one character if you know they spend most of their time in a fight buffed. In PoE, Plate armor is actually too damn strong. On PotD where fights are long, and you get outnumbered this is important.

Note: All of my numbers are done using 10 Dex - upping your Dex closes the gap even further, because of a natural recovery frame decrease.

A Plate wearing, two-hander wielding Barbarin wants Blood Thirst to void Recovery after each kill (also works for item abilities, such as scrolls; a Barbarian can theoretically chain cast if each cast will kill). Bloodlust temporarily buffs his attack speed by 20% after 2 kills (so is more suited for plate dual-wielders - who will be near 0 Recovery anyway, so don't need/want Blood Thirst).
But good info otherwise.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

That sounds nice and all, but I like reach weapon on my Barbarians. I prefer to reduce pausing and micro to the minimum, and this accomplishes exactly that. Set him on Frenzy and let him poke people with a stick from the 2nd row behind the tanks.

 

[Prime Junta]

That sounds nice and all, but I like reach weapon on my Barbarians. I prefer to reduce pausing and micro to the minimum, and this accomplishes exactly that. Set him on Frenzy and let him poke people with a stick from the 2nd row behind the tanks.

Carnage radius isn't affected by weapon reach, only INT. You're wasting your barb's main ability. You want as many attacks per second as possible on as many enemies inside your Carnage radius as possible, while finding a way to stay alive longer than the opposition. There are lots of good ways to do it, but poking with a stick from the second line ain't one of them.

 

[cannondwarf]

That sounds nice and all, but I like reach weapon on my Barbarians. I prefer to reduce pausing and micro to the minimum, and this accomplishes exactly that. Set him on Frenzy and let him poke people with a stick from the 2nd row behind the tanks.

Carnage radius isn't affected by weapon reach, only INT. You're wasting your barb's main ability. You want as many attacks per second as possible on as many enemies inside your Carnage radius as possible, while finding a way to stay alive longer than the opposition. There are lots of good ways to do it, but poking with a stick from the second line ain't one of them.

It's easier to control how many targets you affect with Carnage if you attack from the backline though. I've tried both frontline and backline Tall Grass barb, and Tall Grass was better for spreading the damage (but it's more fun to St. Rumbalt the fuck out of everything).

 

[Hyperion]

How do we find out what the cap is or is it always x1.69 regardless of anything?

1.69x is not an absolute value, it's just a relative value of your attack time and Recovery Frames. The cap is when Recovery Frames hit 0.

To piggyback off Prime Junta, The Vent Pick in WM2 is an excellent weapon for Barbarians because of its 15% chance to proc Flames of Devotion, Crit Multi, Crit Chance, and inherent Durgan Refined. And is found like 15 minutes into The White March 2, sooner than even The Dragon Maw. Other nice weapons are any of the Sabres that also have Annihilation, or The Unlabored Blade. I think Steadfast is best saved for either Paladin, Rogue, or if you have a Monk who wields weapons. I find the Barbarian enchant kinda shitty. Plus, its Frighten immunity is best saved for whoever is going to tank the Dragons. Ravenwing is a really good interim weapon too, if you pick the Ruffian Weapon Focus simply because of how early it's available.

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Vent_Pick

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Ravenwing

 

[Haplo]

That sounds nice and all, but I like reach weapon on my Barbarians. I prefer to reduce pausing and micro to the minimum, and this accomplishes exactly that. Set him on Frenzy and let him poke people with a stick from the 2nd row behind the tanks.

Carnage radius isn't affected by weapon reach, only INT. You're wasting your barb's main ability. You want as many attacks per second as possible on as many enemies inside your Carnage radius as possible, while finding a way to stay alive longer than the opposition. There are lots of good ways to do it, but poking with a stick from the second line ain't one of them.

Perhaps calling this tactics "wasting ability" is too harsh. Tall Grass will still knockdown everyone in Carnage radius on crit (as will St Rumbaldt). But I agree that staying in the back row isn't the best way to do so.
A reach weapon, such as Tall Grass, while perhaps will not increase the radius of Carnage, but will allow for optimization of the center of the Carnage radius (perhaps setting the center behind ENEMY frontline), and thus affect the largest possible number of most important targets easily. Will also largely make enemy engagement a non-issue.

However personally I still prefer to be in the thick of things and hand out St Rumbaldt huge crit damage ownage.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

That sounds nice and all, but I like reach weapon on my Barbarians. I prefer to reduce pausing and micro to the minimum, and this accomplishes exactly that. Set him on Frenzy and let him poke people with a stick from the 2nd row behind the tanks.

Carnage radius isn't affected by weapon reach, only INT. You're wasting your barb's main ability. You want as many attacks per second as possible on as many enemies inside your Carnage radius as possible, while finding a way to stay alive longer than the opposition. There are lots of good ways to do it, but poking with a stick from the second line ain't one of them.

The other guys already explained. The point isn't to increase Carnage radius. The point is a) AOE prone with Tall Grass Pike and b) do lots of damage with no micro.

Frontline Barb is better but you need to manage him, try to orient the Carnage AOE and be mindful of the enemies. Backline Barb can be basically set to auto-attack and still do very respectable damage while basically never being in danger.

 

[Prime Junta]

The other guys already explained. The point isn't to increase Carnage radius. The point is a) AOE prone with Tall Grass Pike and b) do lots of damage with no micro.

Frontline Barb is better but you need to manage him, try to orient the Carnage AOE and be mindful of the enemies. Backline Barb can be basically set to auto-attack and still do very respectable damage while basically never being in danger.

Then why use a barb? Fighter, ranger, or rogue will all do more damage.

(Just to make it clear, the reach weapon isn't the problem -- Tall Grass is a great choice for a barb, although IMO Hours of St. Rumbalt is better. Back row, however, is. There just won't be as many enemies within Carnage range as otherwise.)

 

[Parabalus]

It's still around 50ish% though. If I choose double durganized stilettos, like I have, and then plain clothing it says x1.43 faster, but if I choose plate it goes to x1.01 slower. I put 20 DEX in. What I did found out is that basically nothing stacks with DAoM pots, including gear like Gauntlets of Swift Action.

If you build Durance using an Arquebus (which is a great idea because of his +10 Accuracy talent, Priest hasshitty base defenses, and it'll keep him safe to cast those spells faster), regular Plate and no modifications to his speed is only 1.01x slower than naked shooting.

Keep in mind that spells don't have access to many speed modifiers outside of gloves + DAoM - plate is a severe hamper in that case, a 3:2 ration in spells cast. It's why e.g. I kept my cipher in robes, even though he has 0 recovery in plate.

The part about Dex is misleading, DEX provides the same relative increase (- slightly because of math and unreducible frames) regardless of your attack speed. Relative Frame Diff. between different attack speed values stays the same regardless of DEX.

I also think you overvalue plate on backline a bit - ranged classes don't have as many modifiers for attack speed as melee, plate is a pretty big burden to them. Plate means comparatively less as you go later in the game since enchants are flat and the enemies who attack your backline tend to be single high damage hits. That's my experience anyway, tried full plate a few times and didn't find it worth it, sentiments may differ.

That sounds nice and all, but I like reach weapon on my Barbarians. I prefer to reduce pausing and micro to the minimum, and this accomplishes exactly that. Set him on Frenzy and let him poke people with a stick from the 2nd row behind the tanks.

Carnage radius isn't affected by weapon reach, only INT. You're wasting your barb's main ability. You want as many attacks per second as possible on as many enemies inside your Carnage radius as possible, while finding a way to stay alive longer than the opposition. There are lots of good ways to do it, but poking with a stick from the second line ain't one of them.

The other guys already explained. The point isn't to increase Carnage radius. The point is a) AOE prone with Tall Grass Pike and b) do lots of damage with no micro.

Frontline Barb is better but you need to manage him, try to orient the Carnage AOE and be mindful of the enemies. Backline Barb can be basically set to auto-attack and still do very respectable damage while basically never being in danger.

Then why use a barb? Fighter, ranger, or rogue will all do more damage.

(Just to make it clear, the reach weapon isn't the problem -- Tall Grass is a great choice for a barb, although IMO Hours of St. Rumbalt is better. Back row, however, is. There just won't be as many enemies within Carnage range as otherwise.)

Extended range makes Tall Grass THE weapon. If you aren't in melee enemies won't focus you and you can get away with easier 3CON/3RES, which you can't really do with with melee. There is 0 point in St. Rumbalt since it CCs worse than Tall Grass and does a lot less damage then dual wielding.

The easier target selection is the key part - often as barb picking the right target means you can carnage 2-3 foes more. Even in extreme opimisation you can't make St. Rumbalt do enough damage more that it outweighs even partial one additional target.
This isn't about backrow or not, the added range means that as a frontline you have better access to targets, which is premium as a barb. The difference of 10% HtC vs +0.5 crit mod means little if you can hit on more goon.

What I'm unsure of is whether Extended Reach interacts with HoF, couldn't tell from normal play and never bothered to test it, would just be icing.

Fighter or rogue will never do more damage over the course of a game even if you never manually control your barb, carnage is just that good. They beat him on single target though.

It's still around 50ish% though. If I choose double durganized stilettos, like I have, and then plain clothing it says x1.43 faster, but if I choose plate it goes to x1.01 slower. I put 20 DEX in. What I did found out is that basically nothing stacks with DAoM pots, including gear like Gauntlets of Swift Action.

No, the gauntlets stack multiplicatively with DAoM, which makes them so good, one of the strongest items in the game. The modifiers in the calculator are grouped in stacking categories, though it's not immediately clear from the calculator which are additive and which are multiplicative. The creators forum post is
here where you can see the original table from which it's apparent.

 

[Iznaliu]

If health is constraining your resting rather than per-rest ability uses, you're not using enough per-rest abilities.

Is this why they are abolishing per-rest abilities in PoE2? /s

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

The other guys already explained. The point isn't to increase Carnage radius. The point is a) AOE prone with Tall Grass Pike and b) do lots of damage with no micro.

Frontline Barb is better but you need to manage him, try to orient the Carnage AOE and be mindful of the enemies. Backline Barb can be basically set to auto-attack and still do very respectable damage while basically never being in danger.

Then why use a barb? Fighter, ranger, or rogue will all do more damage.

Yeah, nope. 2nd row Barb can go full damage build with no care in the world. Fighter and Ranger will never even come close. Rogue maybe might if you go full glass cannon, but then you're losing ability to off-tank, which Barb has even when naked.

Besides, once again you're fixating about optimal numbers, when I have clearly stated that doesn't concern me much. My #1 priority with these games is to make passive builds that require minimal input and little to no pausing. 2nd row damage dealer-offtank-pronebot who runs on autopilot is a dream come true.

 

[Prime Junta]

Besides, once again you're fixating about optimal numbers, when I have clearly stated that doesn't concern me much. My #1 priority with these games is to make passive builds that require minimal input and little to no pausing. 2nd row damage dealer-offtank-pronebot who runs on autopilot is a dream come true.

Hmm, the lowest-maintenance barb I've played with was Maneha dual-wielding Spelltongues. Run her in the middle of a crowd, pop Savage Defiance, and she'll be hacking away forever.

 

[Prime Junta]

Is this why they are abolishing per-rest abilities in PoE2? /s

Also health.

 

[Iznaliu]

Also health.

Wounds don't do anything that differently from health.

 

[Lacrymas]

Well, if you can avoid getting them, like outhealing the damage, then you wouldn't be forced to rest like with Health.

 

[Colour Spray]

Is this why they are abolishing per-rest abilities in PoE2? /s

/shrug

Sure, there could be other reasons for extending the cast times for spells in Pillars 2. Similarly the 5 person party limit could be because it allows them to render effects at a slightly higher graphical fidelity whilst measuring the performance hit.

It could also be that a class-independent haste stat that allows for multiplicative stacking exacerbates the problems that lead to those adjustments. It just seems like a priest with 18 attacks per round is always going to be a problem in an atb system with an action economy. But I used the word 'probably' to indicate that I was speculating.

Chances are you're right and it's not on their radar at all, however. They already mentioned that spreading out counters was an intention they had to make the Priest class less of a fulcrum of the party and give more options to the other classes. So perhaps they figure that increases complexity enough to warrant slowing down spell-action speed. Or that it's just obvious too much is happening at once when force slow-mode combat seems to be the common-sense advice.

 

[Iznaliu]

Well, if you can avoid getting them, like outhealing the damage, then you wouldn't be forced to rest like with Health.

But that might limit your tactical options.

 

[prodigydancer]

Is there a good strategy for upscaled Elmshore? Facing 11-12 enemies at once, 3 of them Adragans is quite overwhelming. My party is level 11, so I thought I wouldn't have any huge issues but they totally roflstomp me. Large groups of other enemies can be split by setting an ambush at some distance and kiting towards it but this little trick doesn't work against Petrify spammers that have 110 Acc.

To be honest, I very rarely had to resort to kiting or any other cheesy tactics. Fought Adragans in Od Nua without any problems but not upscaled and not in such numbers.

Any suggestions?

 

[Bio Force Ape]

Don't fight them?

Most of the enemies in that area can be safely walked around and avoided. Maybe come back later if you really feel the need to kill every enemy on every map, though it's certainly not necessary to hit max level.

 

[prodigydancer]

Don't fight them?

If I wanted to avoid hard fights, I'd simply play on Story Mode. )

Anyway, I can beat them if I put heavy armor on everyone for more DR and use a defensive formation with tankier characters in a circle around squishies. Still, Aloth and Sagani went down eventually which isn't great. Usually I don't have to rest after a trash fight if I start it with ~80% of party health pool and quite a few spells left.

 

[Prime Junta]

Pull of Eora + AoE killing field (layer debuffs and damage, take your pick from druid and wiz spells). You do need to bring out the big guns for them, but that's what they're for. Immunity against Petrification helps too (spell or scroll), but you shouldn't need more than one at the start.