Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,292
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
I wish they'd optimize the game code instead of adding more balance passes. They can continue to optimize the MobileObjects.save file cleaning/reduction with each patch, as it still collects tons of garbage as its size increases making end-game saves horribly slow.

They could also tweak selection circles further and optimize them since they're the biggest drain on performance right now. For reference merely go into any highly populated area and watch your frame-rate fluctuate as you enable/disable selection circles on NPC's. My favorite place to do that and watch the frame-rate dip is inside the Celestial Sapling Inn in Elm's Reach. There are about 20 NPC's crammed inisde the INN and if you stand in the middle of the screen and disable/enable selection circles (for all, not just your party) you can see the framerate die as soon as they're turned on.

Another thing they could do is tweak the visual FX for spells which not only obscure fucking everything during battle but also murder the frame-rate. This is not something that would be impossible; it's entirely possible since this is just texture crap.

They could also introduce a slider for the LOD Bias (Level of Detail) and allow users on 32-bit machines with 4 GB of RAM to utilize a positive modifier on the LOD, which blurs textures and reduces the game's memory consumption by more than half. This also shortens loading times by half. Currently I do this using RadeonPro, and with the LOD Bias set at "0" (or in nVidia terms, "Clamped"), my OSD reports that 400-500 MB's of Video RAM are being utilized in Russetwoods to the west of Stalwart Village.

If I set the LOD Bias to a positive modifier of +1.0-1.5, this very noticeably blurs the textures but allows the same scene to run with only 150-200 MB's of Video RAM, and almost halves loading times.
Do you think that could be the reason for Defiance Bay looking so lifeless? Two of the main problems seem related to the need for optimization you're describing - relatively few NPCs, and few patrolling NPCs, most of them stationary. Could the third problem - areas being too few and too small compared to BG/BGII also be related to tech limitations?
 

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,800
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
The problem isn't the selection circles, it's the unity renderer struggling to render heaps of characters because of the way they implemented/designed them (lots of different models together).
 

Metal Hurlant

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
535
Codex USB, 2014 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
It comes across as Obsidian can't be bothered with the background atmosphere, the animations, the small details and all those little things which on their own may not mean much, but put together brings the game to life. In the BG games, you feel the bustling of the cities, hearing the hawkers selling their wares, the different idle animations of characters, your companions don't act like robots as they randomly start walking at different times when you command them to move. Attention to detail isn't something I think of with the BG games when I played them over the years, but when compared to Pillars, it surprises me that BioWare did put so much effort into the BG games and it shows.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,292
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
It comes across as Obsidian can't be bothered with the background atmosphere, the animations, the small details and all those little things which on their own may not mean much, but put together brings the game to life. In the BG games, you feel the bustling of the cities, hearing the hawkers selling their wares, the different idle animations of characters, your companions don't act like robots as they randomly start walking at different times when you command them to move. Attention to detail isn't something I think of with the BG games when I played them over the years, but when compared to Pillars, it surprises me that BioWare did put so much effort into the BG games and it shows.
Yeah, like I said earlier somewhere else - it feels to me they're still fighting the effect of the game being prematurely released but they can't fully compensate for it. BTW the BG games, at least BGII had great ambient audio which combined with little animations like chimneys smoking, birds flying, gave you the feeling of there being more active elements around the city than there actually were. Even Sigil looks more alive than Defiance Bay (pun not intended). I was so looking forward to a BGII-grade main city with PoE's graphics, and it was such a letdown :(
 

Fairfax

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
There is one specific build that the Fighter excels at: the "martyr" build.

Guardian Stance (emits a small aura that gives allies Deflection while decreasing his personal Accuracy)
Rapid Recovery (plus Cloak of the Tireless Defender which can be bought in Ondra's Gift / Defiance Bay)
Critical Defense (decreases chances of him being critted/hit)
Unbending (absorbs incoming damange and converts it into self-healing)
Take The Hit (absorbs damange that nearby Allies receive and makes the Fighter receive it instead)
Unbroken (when Fighter's endurance reaches zero he immediately gets back up with 100+ endurance points and a boost to his stats)

** Might affects his Constant Recovery/Rapid Recovery/Unbending/Unbroken/Take The Hit amount of healing, so he hits hard and heals... hard. lewl.

It's a really unique build that ONLY the figter can pull off. Much better than treating him as just as a Knockdown machine.
All passive bonuses. It was alright when tanking had a purpose with the previous engagement system and it was the best pure tank, but now it's just a knockdown machine or a poor man's sort-of-tank that's worse than other classes at everything.
 

roshan

Arcane
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Messages
2,438
It's shameful how lazy this game is. Gilded Vale was completely lifeless, you don't see anyone walking around, in fact, aside from a few Fedex dispensers, there's no one to interact with at all, except the hordes of shitty backer fanfic NPCs. "Exploring" Gilded Vale is like looking at a shitty, generic, uninspired painting on someone's Deviant Art page. Then there's the dungeon where for some weird reason you find ghosts and lizards cohabitating. You then head south to the wilderness areas, and find a horde of enemies behind every bush. First a horde of wolves, then a horde of ghost babies, then a bunch of trolls or tree creatures, then a horde of wolves, then spiders - wilderness areas densely packed like an urban city center, and depopulated towns - it makes no fucking sense, there's no thought or effort put into it at all.

On the other hand take an indie game like Lords of Xulima. The game has both placed encounters and random event encounters, plus global random encounters with the hounds, and for some weird bloody reason, they end up being appropriately spaced out from each other. Most areas and dungeons have a certain theme, and contain enemies that are appropriate and congruent with each other.

It's amazing that a low budget indie passion project can far outshine a generic, uninspired Obshittian product.
 

Immortal

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
5,062
Location
Safe Space - Don't Bulli
It's shameful how lazy this game is. Gilded Vale was completely lifeless, you don't see anyone walking around, in fact, aside from a few Fedex dispensers, there's no one to interact with at all, except the hordes of shitty backer fanfic NPCs.

+1

Oh great! Hard counters.. Does that mean the wilderness areas are going to have multiple paths and secret areas to explore or potentional side que--

Nope.. still just Dragons, Ogres and Backer Death Gods... Backer Death Gods Everywhere.... Smoking Pipes.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,292
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
It's shameful how lazy this game is. Gilded Vale was completely lifeless, you don't see anyone walking around, in fact, aside from a few Fedex dispensers, there's no one to interact with at all, except the hordes of shitty backer fanfic NPCs. "Exploring" Gilded Vale is like looking at a shitty, generic, uninspired painting on someone's Deviant Art page. Then there's the dungeon where for some weird reason you find ghosts and lizards cohabitating. You then head south to the wilderness areas, and find a horde of enemies behind every bush. First a horde of wolves, then a horde of ghost babies, then a bunch of trolls or tree creatures, then a horde of wolves, then spiders - wilderness areas densely packed like an urban city center, and depopulated towns - it makes no fucking sense, there's no thought or effort put into it at all.

On the other hand take an indie game like Lords of Xulima. The game has both placed encounters and random event encounters, plus global random encounters with the hounds, and for some weird bloody reason, they end up being appropriately spaced out from each other. Most areas and dungeons have a certain theme, and contain enemies that are appropriate and congruent with each other.

It's amazing that a low budget indie passion project can far outshine a generic, uninspired Obshittian product.
PoE's wilderness areas made me ponder if respawning groups of enemies in BG/BGII were all that bad. I mean, once you clear out a wilderness area, there is no reason to ever return there, because unlike BG/BGII there are no quest hooks which might necessitate you going back into an area you've already cleared once. In the case of BG/BGII, some trash combat made returning feel less like part of a fetch quest. Probably I'm wrong though, both fetch quests and trash mobs are cheap tricks. But hey, we're going for "IE feels" here (so we just had to do trash mobs, no matter there is no xp for killing them - which is a novelty, but it's still cool, because we're doing it). Only we take the bad parts and "redesign" the good ones :)

Features are either good because we've made them "like in the IE games", or they're bad, and we realize that, but we still made them because it has to be "like in the IE games", or they don't exist in the IE games, but they're still cool because we made them, and players don't know what's good for them anyway.
 

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,800
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
I didn't play all of the wilderness areas but things that were good about the gameplay content of wilderness areas in Baldur's Gate seem to have flown over the heads of everyone at the company.

Baldur's Gate had a lot of wilderness areas and not all of them were fantastic but various ones were memorable because of the unique content. Each area had at least one mini-quest and most had some unique encounters. Most areas also had some cool treasure. They also had random encounters of trash mobs mixed with placed encounters of trash and non-trash mobs.

In contrast Obsidian took away from this - Placed encounters of trash and non-trash mobs and treasure. Most treasure found isn't very cool because the itemization of the game isn't very cool. Unique content, if it existed was also extremely bland.

The best wilderness area was Magran's Fork because it had a non-hostile NPC encounter (you rescue some guy from some wolves or some shit and he gives you a potion, although it's not a quest) - still pretty generic but at least that somewhat invokes a BG1 feel. It also had a hand-placed encounter with some bounty hunters. One of them had a name, but unfortunately they had no dialogue, they just attack you. I remember finding one hidden item that was alright as well. I still consider the area sub-par to most BG1 areas because of the lack of dialogue.

Every other area is worse than this, often by a significant margin - most other areas only contain hand placed generic encounters and maybe have some shitty items to find. I'm not completely surprised given that most wilderness areas were designed by new Obsidian hires or people that had not worked on a game like this before. That being said, I think it's also poor oversight from the leads as well (OR just that no one re-played the IE games and critically thought about the design ;) ).

I also recall multiple people at the company stating a preference for the "Black Isle" style of areas - which is fine. However content-wise this was not even remotely close to replicated either unless of course you consider replicating the worst IWD2 areas (like some of the ones on the way to the Shaerngarne Bridge - pure trash mobs, no dialogue or neutral npcs). Talk about regression.

--------

Here is an average BG1 area - The Waterfall area with the Dryad. This area is far from perfect, particularly combat-content wise, there's not much here.

http://www.forgottenwars.com/bg1/ar5200.htm

It has two unique self-contained mini-quests. Protect the Dryad from the hillbillies and find Drienne's Cat. Both quests have some dialogue and you get a reward (unless your reputation sucks). Yes, this was BioWare's first RPG back in 1998 when it was the first game of most people in the company and this self-contained content is sub-par to what you might find in an RPG like Dark Sun: Shattered Lands, or Fallout 1 or 2. The important thing to take out of this is the formula.

There are also two other encounters. A gnoll warns you of the Gnoll Stronghold to the west - I don't remember the details but he's abandoned them for some reason. Ludrug I believe is a Hobgoblin that wants to rob you. Both of these creatures have a name, and they have dialogue - once again, question the quality of this content all you like (I thought both were fitting enough) but note the formula.

Take this formula - two unique creatures with dialogue and some possible optional combat, and two unique self-contained mini-quests and dump that into a Pillars of Eternity wilderness area with "Obsidian style writing/content" and you would suddenly have much better area design, content wise. Can't do much about the combat encounters though, they're unfixable.
 
Last edited:

dragonul09

Arcane
Edgy
Joined
Dec 19, 2014
Messages
1,445
But the constant walls of pompous text describing the npcs taking a shit were great right ? The writing and generic quests ruined this game and i fear Torment will get the same treatment.

The whole game felt rushed and the world in general feels fake and didn't had an ounce of originality.You just can't create something of that magnitude in a few months and call it a day,you just can't.Forgotten realms was created in years of work and heck,even Drage Age felt more immersive than Dyr Shit.
I know they had financial problems and it shows that this project was something pulled out of their ass in the last minute just to save some face.

And i can't believe they want to make a sequel for this shit:lol:
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
16,292
Location
At large
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Here is an average BG1 area - The Waterfall area with the Dryad. This area is far from perfect, particularly combat-content wise, there's not much here.

http://www.forgottenwars.com/bg1/ar5200.htm

It has two unique self-contained mini-quests. Protect the Dryad from the hillbillies and find Drienne's Cat. Both quests have some dialogue and you get a reward (unless your reputation sucks). Yes, this was BioWare's first RPG back in 1998 when it was the first game of most people in the company and this self-contained content is sub-par to what you might find in an RPG like Dark Sun: Shattered Lands, or Fallout 1 or 2. The important thing to take out of this is the formula.

There are also two other encounters. A gnoll warns you of the Gnoll Stronghold to the west - I don't remember the details but he's abandoned them for some reason. Ludrug I believe is a Hobgoblin that wants to rob you. Both of these creatures have a name, and they have dialogue - once again, question the quality of this content all you like (I thought both were fitting enough) but note the formula.

Take this formula - two unique creatures with dialogue and some possible optional combat, and two unique self-contained mini-quests and dump that into a Pillars of Eternity wilderness area with "Obsidian style writing/content" and you would suddenly have much better area design, content wise. Can't do much about the combat encounters though, they're unfixable.

I see. What this amounts to for me is that the BGI developers had enough experience (with PnP or with other RPGs) to produce interesting content for their game, and this offset their lack of experience in making cRPGs, while the Obsidian devs only needed experience with the IE games, but they lacked that, and in fact there are players who understand the games they emulate better than the devs do. Either way, it's only the hardcore audience that isn't fooled. I can see drones lapping up PoE and being pretty happy with it.

The other day I watched a guy on twitch playing PoE. I was curious if there isn't actually some fun way to play this game which I somehow can't find. But he was playing just like I was. And he even looked bored while doing so :)

The whole game felt rushed and the world in general feels fake and didn't had an ounce of originality.
Because it is (rushed). I would give the world a chance, because I think it itself is unfinished, and it's more down to personal preference. I don't mind cliche or "generic" stories and settings, if they are well executed.
 
Last edited:

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,823
Think of it this way, it's seven months later and they're still writing paragraphs about Pillars.

"Forgettable," they said. :lol:
 

dragonul09

Arcane
Edgy
Joined
Dec 19, 2014
Messages
1,445
MUH BALDUR'S GATE
Hey at least Baldurs gate has an excuse for being what it is,you know because it was released 17 years ago and you just can't ask for everything at that period of time ,where developers barely started to accommodate with the new ''tech''.

But here comes PoE 17 motherfucking years later and acomplished absolutely nothing than Baldurs did in the fucking age stone,how can that be?For fuck sake they even regresed when it comes to the combat system and questing in general...

Why would someone pay 50 bucks for a lesser version of Baldurs Gate?
 

roshan

Arcane
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Messages
2,438
Think of it this way, it's seven months later and they're still writing paragraphs about Pillars.

"Forgettable," they said. :lol:

Actually, I personally have never claimed any such thing. In fact, the game is so utterly terrible, so disgustingly designed, that playing it can permanently scar one's psyche. Even Serpent in the Staglands was not able to cure me of this affliction.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,823
Turns out Josh is just as annoyed as Sensuki regarding transparency.

It has been a continual frustration that we've never been able to extract animation time and display it with all appropriate modifications and recovery times. If we make a sequel, it's something I want to address ASAP.

It's not a matter of "they won't do this," it's a matter of "they can't." :)
 

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,800
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
The way they programmed the animation and recovery systems makes it very difficult for them to obtain the data for use in the UI. I *think* the main problem is the animation length bit, from what I remember when I read the decompiled sources.

edit: but yes as Bubbles says below, the system is also kinda needlessly complicated.
 
Self-Ejected

Bubbles

I'm forever blowing
Joined
Aug 7, 2013
Messages
7,817
What does this mean? :s

There's no way to see your real attack speed in PoE, and there's no simple way to calculate it either. Part of the problem is that the attack animation has a component whose length is strictly fixed and is not affected by attack speed modifiers. Thus, a modifier that "increases attack speed by 10%" doesn't actually provide a 10% improvement.

There's also a difference between "attack time" and "recovery time" for an attack, and both are affected by different modifiers. One current estimate is that a war bow has 30 attack frames and 60 recovery frames as a baseline, while a pistol has 54 attack frames and 76 recovery frames.

All of this should reasonably be shown in the UI based on how much information it offers about the other combat mechanics, but it isn't.
 

Dreaad

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
5,604
Location
Deep in your subconscious mind spreading lies.
It's just boring. That sums the entire thing. I don't care about some war that has no effect on anything, I don't care about some dead god, don't care about defiance bay, don't care about dead babies (amusingly none of the in game characters seem to care either, you'd think there'd be a huge crusading effort to fix the problem, but nope they just complain). Don't care about the bland combat, don't care about NPC fetch me muh healing potion quests, don't care about the generic items, don't care about the same generic mobs, which all require the same tactics. Don't care about the generic copy pasted soundtrack, don't care about the lifeless background. Don't care about picking sides when all they want is the same thing, don't care about unraveling the mystery of a man who secretly pulls the strings of world but can't deal with one random idiot. Don't care about the blue water orks. The entire time I'm playing it, I want to turn it off, so I did.

There's nothing to even complain about, because it's not funny bad, it's not stupid bad, it's just dull.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom