Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Game News Pillars of Eternity II Fig Update #40: Multiclassing Revisited

Discussion in 'RPG News & Content' started by Infinitron, Sep 20, 2017.

  1. Make America Great Again Infinitrongender: ⚧ Trade Master Patron

    Infinitron
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Parrots:
    64,448
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Click here and disable ads!
    Tags: J.E. Sawyer; Obsidian Entertainment; Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire

    Because of Gamescom, their recent media campaign, and perhaps other reasons we're not aware of, it's taken Obsidian a longer time than originally anticipated to release the Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire multiclassing update they promised in last month's Fig update. But today it's finally here, and it's an important update indeed, for it reveals that Josh Sawyer has made the decision to scrap his original plans for 3E-style multiclassing and move to an AD&D-style system where both classes are selected at character creation. The reasons for this are typically Sawyery ones, but perhaps the system is complex enough as it is. Join Josh and his loyal apprentices as they explore its depths in the update's accompanying video, which also includes a look at the new character creation UI and gameplay footage showing various multiclass builds in action.



    Our original design for multiclassing was based on D&D 3.X's approach, where players pick classes level-by-level. You could build a character as a wizard for 4 levels, then add 2 levels of fighter, then switch back to wizard for 3 levels, and so on. Because 3.X multiclassing has some mechanical problems with how spellcasters progress (barring certain prestige classes like the Mystic Theurge), I designed a system that separated each class' power source advancement from its level advancement. It was designed to create a more reliable advancement curve for each class' abilities. It more-or-less succeeded at that, but we noted some problems early on, including after the announcement:
    • People had a difficult time understanding the relationship between individual levels and power source progression.
    • Selecting powers worked pretty well if you knew exactly what you were doing, but you could easily wind up with casts per encounter from levels of spells you had no spells for (e.g. 2 third level casts but no third level spells).
    • There were some shortcomings with building characters level by level in different orders.
    • Displaying power source progression in the UI was either confusing or took up an inordinate amount of space.
    After talking things over with the other system designers, we discussed what the most important aspects of multiclassing were.
    • Allowing people to realize hybrid class character concepts. "I want to be a fighter and a wizard."
    • Keeping the overall power of the character competitive with single-class characters. The character should be viable. It's okay if it winds up over- or a little under-powered compared to a single-class character as long as it's not fundamentally weak.
    • Allowing players to emphasize one aspect of the hybrid more than others. "I'm a fighter and a wizard, but more of a wizard."
    The original design allowed the first and the last aspects, but the middle aspect suffered because of the high degree of flexibility. It was still easy to make non-viable characters. A non-viable character can be part of a viable party, but still feels bad to play. The high degree of flexibility also strained the first aspect, the basic character concept. A character with 18 levels in fighter and 2 levels in rogue is less of a character concept and more of a strategic build choice.

    I went back to the drawing board to revisit an idea I had around the same time as the original design, which was based on AD&D 2nd Edition-style multiclassing, where the player chooses to opt into multiclassing at character creation instead of selecting classes level-by-level. In such systems, the core concept is established from the beginning. A player who says, "I want to be a fighter and a wizard," can be that (a battlemage) from the beginning instead of picking one class and then alternating to the other later on. Progression is also easier to understand from the beginning as access to abilities and the increase of their power is consistent from multiclass to multiclass. A fighter/rogue (swashbuckler) gains access to 2nd level abilities for both classes at 4th level, as does a priest/monk (contemplative), barbarian/chanter (howler), and druid/ranger (beastmaster).

    In a strict sense, the new system allows for less overall flexibility, but multiclass characters now get two abilities each time they hit a new power level, one from each class. This means that a multiclass character starts with more abilities and will always have more abilities than a single-class character of the same level. However, multiclass characters get access to each power level later than a single-class character and their abilities progress in power at a slower rate. A wizard has access to Fireball at 5th level, but a battlemage (fighter/wizard) does not gain access until 7th level.

    A multiclass character also uses the average of their classes' base health and defenses. If one class begins with 48 health and the other begins with 30, the multiclass will start with 39 health. If one class gains 14 health per level and the other gains 10 per level, the multiclass will gain 12 per level.

    In actual playtesting, multiclass characters have terrific flexibility even though they lag power-wise compared to their single-class counterparts. In my personal experience, they are a lot of fun to play and there is a huge amount of variety to how a multiclass character can be built even before subclasses are taken into account.

    Subclasses add an additional dimension to character conception and development. As in our original design, players are allowed to choose a subclass for each of their classes. The only classes that are required to have a subclass are paladin and priest. Subclasses all have trade-offs, though some subclasses change the core playstyle of the class more than others. A sharpshooter plays similarly to the pure ranger, but emphasizes the ranged aspect more and suffers more in melee. A stalker needs to stay close to their animal companion to avoid penalties and take advantage of the subclass' melee-oriented benefits. A ghost lodge ranger plays much differently from the pure ranger because their animal companion is only present as a spirit summoned in combat. There are very few restrictions on multiclassing combinations. Only a few paladin orders and priest deities are restricted from combining for mechanical reasons (i.e., contradictory Dispositions that affect their abilities). Otherwise, the player is free to combine classes as they see fit.
    The full update includes a list of all the multiclass titles and descriptions of each class's subclasses. Those of you who are unhappy with this change might be glad to learn that the new system will still allow you to emphasize one class over the other via ability selection on level-up. The next Deadfire update, coming in a few weeks, will be another social media feature compilation.
     
    • Balanced x 8
    • Brofist x 6
    • incline x 2
    • Excited! x 2
    • decline x 1
    • Friendly x 1
    ^ Top  
  2. Ruzengender: ⚧ Learned

    Ruzen
    Joined:
    May 24, 2015
    Parrots:
    106
    Holly shit! The joy of that creation page.
    :shredder:
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    ^ Top  
  3. Valtielgender: ⚧ Literate

    Valtiel
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2017
    Parrots:
    6
    Location:
    Italy
    Honestly laughed hard here
    Show Spoiler
    [​IMG]
     
    • Balanced Balanced x 9
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    ^ Top  
  4. Shadenuatgender: ⚧ Arcane

    Shadenuat
    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Parrots:
    5,008
    Location:
    Russia
    aka Sawyer fails at balancing new neverwinter nights and just reverts to AD&D 2 edition he and other kewl nu Dungeon Masters hate.

    3:20 I am playing as that.
    I hope now I get more unique dialogue lines than 1.

    Watching these unique abilities just makes it more obvious how better game would be turn based.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Old Old x 1
    • Balanced Balanced x 1
    ^ Top  
  5. TheSentinelgender: ⚧ Liturgist

    TheSentinel
    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2015
    Parrots:
    1,756
    Location:
    Ommadawn
    Why can't they let people rename class combinations tho?
     
    • Balanced Balanced x 1
    • Disgusting! Disgusting! x 1
    ^ Top  
  6. Dorateengender: ⚧ Arcane

    Dorateen
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Parrots:
    2,130
    Location:
    The Crystal Mist Mountains
    Gygax > Sawyer
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  7. Trashosgender: ⚧ Savant

    Trashos
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2015
    Parrots:
    485
    Very enjoyable vid!

    Btw...
    Is that a pipboy at 4:29?
    And that's Tim Cain at 0:26.

    They are playing with our minds.
     
    • it is a mystery it is a mystery x 4
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Yes Yes x 1
    • Balanced Balanced x 1
    ^ Top  
  8. Tigranesgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Tigranes
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2009
    Parrots:
    6,021
    Serpent in the Staglands Torment: Tides of Numenera
    That skill tree UI is almost more important than this multiclassing hoopla
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    ^ Top  
  9. Make America Great Again Infinitrongender: ⚧ Trade Master Patron

    Infinitron
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Parrots:
    64,448
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    2015: Feature race with Beamdog.
    2017: Feature race with Pathfinder: Kingmaker? http://www.rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=10675

    [​IMG]
     
    • hopw roewur ne x 2
    • Disagree x 1
    • decline x 1
    • Informative x 1
    • WTF am I reading x 1
    ^ Top  
  10. HanoverFgender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

    HanoverF
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Parrots:
    5,380
    MCA Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Divinity: Original Sin 2
    I'd appreciate their walk and talk more if it was properly lit.

    Game is looking leaps and bounds ahead of the first, hope they can pull it off.

    :littlemissfun:
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Balanced Balanced x 1
    ^ Top  
  11. felipepepegender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Codex's Heretic Patron

    felipepepe
    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Parrots:
    15,789
    Location:
    Terra da Garoa
    Nice update, it even had Tim Cain in it!

    :love:
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 4
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • Balanced Balanced x 1
    ^ Top  
  12. slowtardgender: ⚧ Literate

    slowtard
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2017
    Parrots:
    15
    Count Slowtard, for one, very offended that all members of the marching posse are white folks!

    So when you're near me, darling can't you hear me
    S. O. S.

    It is surprising they think exclusion is acceptable in today's world. They might as well be carrying torches (& a noose)!

    The love you gave me, nothing else can save me
    S. O. S.
     
    • Funny x 4
    • Racist x 2
    • [citation needed] x 1
    • it is a mystery x 1
    • WTF am I reading x 1
    • Shit x 1
    ^ Top  
  13. Thoniusgender: ⚧ Savant

    Thonius
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2014
    Parrots:
    607
    Location:
    Great City Moskva
    I ques devs got wild idea that players like to know what they can build.
     
    ^ Top  
  14. Iznaliugender: ⚧ Arbiter

    Iznaliu
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2016
    Parrots:
    2,805
    There was actually a lot of demand for something like this in PoE1. It's definitely possible that they developed the idea independently of Owlcat.
     
    ^ Top  
  15. Tigranesgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Tigranes
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2009
    Parrots:
    6,021
    Serpent in the Staglands Torment: Tides of Numenera
    Every game should have it, so good on the ones that do
     
    ^ Top  
  16. Tavernkinggender: ⚧ Novice

    Tavernking
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2017
    Parrots:
    57
    "This bear crazy beastmaster shifts into his bear form before fighting alongside his bear companion"

    I wonder what else they do together besides fighting...? Uh, I'm wondering for lore purposes of course.
     
    • Funny x 6
    • Acknowledge this user's Agenda x 2
    • Doggy x 2
    • :M x 2
    • Fabulously Optimistic x 1
    • Excited! x 1
    ^ Top  
  17. Ovplaingender: ⚧ Arcane

    Ovplain
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2009
    Parrots:
    1,612
    Location:
    Down by the riverside
    Skipped through the 'comedy' so fast!
     
    • Despair Despair x 1
    • retadred retadred x 1
    ^ Top  
  18. *-*/\--/\~gender: ⚧ Learned

    *-*/\--/\~
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2014
    Parrots:
    353
    That picture is the complete opposite of clickbait, it effectively prevented me from clicking the video. Eew.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Balanced Balanced x 1
    ^ Top  
  19. Make America Great Again Brotherman Billgender: ⚧ Arcane

    Brotherman Bill
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2009
    Parrots:
    6,349
    Josh "Manboobs" Sawyer

    They even cel-shaded the shadows of his manboobs in the pic you see in the embedded video.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • Prestigious Prestigious x 1
    ^ Top  
  20. Grunkergender: ⚧ RPG Codex Ghost Patron

    Grunker
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Parrots:
    20,248
    Location:
    Copenhagen
    Codex 2012 Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    That change is massive decline.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    ^ Top  
  21. MicoSelvagender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Monstroterratum Furiosum Patron

    MicoSelva
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2010
    Parrots:
    6,787
    Location:
    The Secret World
    Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Is that the style of PoE2 KS updates (I have not watched the previous ones)? Or is Josh just channeling Swen now to show (fake?) his enthusiasm for the game?

    Anyway, I approve. I honestly thought it was pretty funny.

    As for multiclassing - more abilities at the cost of not getting the highest-level ones seems like a reasonable solution, but I still expect 18 months of balancing patches after release, so I will not get too attached to any ideas presented here.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    ^ Top  
  22. Prime Juntagender: ⚧ Arcane

    Prime Junta
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Parrots:
    4,393
    a tree structure showing which talents are needed to get which other talents is a remarkable development indeed
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Prestigious Prestigious x 1
    ^ Top  
  23. Diggfingergender: ⚧ Learned

    Diggfinger
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2014
    Parrots:
    273
    Location:
    Belgium
    Very funny, like Sawyer's style of videos.

    Graphics looks amazing.
    Hope this will do well in the wake of Divinity's success, but still have its own unique flavor.
    Anyway, off to playing Fallout of Nevada (ENG translation) :cool:
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  24. Make America Great Again Perkelgender: ⚧ Arcane

    Perkel
    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2014
    Parrots:
    7,390
    +5% damage per wound

    as sub class "meaningful" trait as only trait.

    Sawyer, Sawyer never changes.

    ------------------------
    ------------------------

    Can't wait for other meaningful traits for subclasses:

    Inquisitor:
    - +1% to spell resistance

    Sharpshooter:
    - +6% to damage with long range weapons

    Wild Berserker:
    - You can summon rabbit for 3 seconds once per day.

    Kensai:
    - Ability: Kai - once per 10 hours of real time gameplay you can use this ability to roll max damage for 30 seconds

    Wild Mage:
    - There is 0,00000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 % chance for unpredictable effect of spell you cast.

    GOD OF DESTRUCTION HIDDEN KIT AFTER YOU BEAT GAME WITH ONLY ONE HAND AND ALL CHARS on 1HP each:
    - 10% to all damage
    - 2% to run speed
    - +1 to chosen stat
     
    • retadred x 5
    • Funny x 4
    • Edgy x 3
    • Balanced x 2
    • Disagree x 1
    • butthurt x 1
    • Racist x 1
    • Shit x 1
    • Doggy x 1
    ^ Top  
  25. Prime Juntagender: ⚧ Arcane

    Prime Junta
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Parrots:
    4,393
    At higher levels it's quite easy to rack up, say, 10 wounds. That's +50% damage. That's not minor.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    ^ Top  

(buying stuff via the above buttons helps us pay the hosting bills, thanks!)