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Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Ulfhednar

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Valhalla
When you encounter a multiclassed enemy of a “stock” type (e.g. Feral Warden), the title will indicate an actual multiclass combination (in the case of Warden, fighter and druid).

This is why they need those 55 names - so that you can tell what it is that you are fighting against. Still think it's a bad idea to make all PCs that multiclass as a Fig/Dru force named a "Warden", though. What if I want to be a Skindancer... a Bramble Shield... etc. They should let the player give their own class title the same way that you can name your ship.
 

Gay-Lussac

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Your mom
You could write "Skin dancer" on a post-it, glue it to the screen and remove and reapply it constantly, in a way such that it follows your character.

That way if mom looks over your shoulder as she's vacuuming your bedroom she won't mistakenly ask "Oh, Ulfhednar, is a that a Warden you're playing?! How cool!" and you won't have to furiously reply "FFS MOM ITS A SKIN DANCER NOT A WARDEN GET A GRIP JESUS"
 
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Lacrymas

Arcane
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Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,949
Pathfinder: Wrath
While the stock character thing is not immediately recognizable as a bad idea, it's still an issue with the omniscient UI. I would've made it so only characters with high lore are able to determine what classes the opponents are at a first glance. That way you also won't meet 50 different variations of Warden. It's kind of MMO-y otherwise, where you meet 50 variations of imp/spider/bird/whatever, and even they try to spruce it up a bit.
 

Efe

Erudite
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Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,597
in that case wouldnt parties with low lore constantly seem to be fighting same "generic enemy" over and over again?
 

Prime Junta

Guest
While the stock character thing is not immediately recognizable as a bad idea, it's still an issue with the omniscient UI. I would've made it so only characters with high lore are able to determine what classes the opponents are at a first glance. That way you also won't meet 50 different variations of Warden. It's kind of MMO-y otherwise, where you meet 50 variations of imp/spider/bird/whatever, and even they try to spruce it up a bit.

There are over a hundred class combos, more if you count subclasses. I doubt you'll encounter 50 of any of them.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
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Pathfinder: Wrath
in that case wouldnt parties with low lore constantly seem to be fighting same "generic enemy" over and over again?

No, they would have their own names (like "thug" or "pirate"). There would be a separate UI element for the things you learn with lore, maybe when you move the mouse over them, or have the class in parentheses below their names.

There are over a hundred class combos, more if you count subclasses. I doubt you'll encounter 50 of any of them.

The enemies you meet should be justifiable, not have random wizards in a primal tribe or druids in a gang of city thugs, so some classes would be the overwhelming majority. Probably some kind of fighter. As it stands now you'd have Thug Warden, Primal Warden, Feral Warden, Sea Warden, Pirate Warden, Acolyte Warden etc. etc. Just replace Warden with whatever the majority would be. Like an MMO. Even if they space them out equally, they would feel utterly impersonal and game-y, contributing to the blandness.
 
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Sizzle

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Feb 17, 2012
Messages
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I may be in the minority here, but I hope that we get battles against multi-classed foes relatively often.

If the vanilla system of PoE1 managed to produce some interesting and unexpected combinations (like the bounty fight against several high-level chanters, who continuously healed their entire party), then this system seems like it could pull off even better and wackier fights. That is, if they put some effort into planning them out beforehand.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
These "decision trees" Josh kept mentioning, is that a new buzzword? Gotta compete with Original Sin 2's AI 2.0.
 

FreeKaner

Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
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Devlet-i ʿAlīye-i ʿErdogānīye
No, they would have their own names (like "thug" or "pirate"). There would be a separate UI element for the things you learn with lore, maybe when you move the mouse over them, or have the class in parentheses below their names.



The enemies you meet should be justifiable, not have random wizards in a primal tribe or druids in a gang of city thugs, so some classes would be the overwhelming majority. Probably some kind of fighter. As it stands now you'd have Thug Warden, Primal Warden, Feral Warden, Sea Warden, Pirate Warden, Acolyte Warden etc. etc. Just replace Warden with whatever the majority would be. Like an MMO. Even if they space them out equally, they would feel utterly impersonal and game-y, contributing to the blandness.

What makes you think they would not keep the encounters (which they said will be more sparse and more thought out overall) thematically consistent with their environment? I doubt you'll get a druid as a random thug. I mean I can't even remember from PoE1 itself that sort of thematically unfitting enemy in any encounter at all.

I would also want them to stretch the meaning of some classes a bit too, since their setting seems a lot more out of the ordinary in this regard. So a cipher/wizard ship captain would be cool for example.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
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17,949
Pathfinder: Wrath
What makes you think they would not keep the encounters (which they said will be more sparse and more thought out overall) thematically consistent with their environment? I doubt you'll get a druid as a random thug. I mean I can't even remember from PoE1 itself that sort of thematically unfitting enemy in any encounter at all.

That's what I'm saying, that if they keep the encounters thematically fitting (as they should) you'd end up fighting a lot of variations of Fighters (or whatever) and the names would start getting MMO-y. Pirate Fighter, Thug Fighter, Primal Fighter, Feral Fighter etc; i.e. it would be even more bland and impersonal in a bad way. And even if they somehow manage to space the classes around equally it would still be gamey not only because you'd have some nonsensical duplicates (like Xaurip Wizard or Thug Druid), but also because it would be samey if every stock character is named after their class. My proposal would give extra utility to lore, and solving the problem of the omniscient UI, while allowing much more thematically consistent names (like instead of Xaurip Wizard, he'd be Xaurip Mystic for example, or Thug Ecoterrorist instead of Druid lol). The other method seems like shooting yourself in the foot, not only do most sub/multi-classes not exist as a thing in the world, you'd have a hard time justifying some combinations, like Thug Druid/Priest.
 
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FreeKaner

Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
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What makes you think they would not keep the encounters (which they said will be more sparse and more thought out overall) thematically consistent with their environment? I doubt you'll get a druid as a random thug. I mean I can't even remember from PoE1 itself that sort of thematically unfitting enemy in any encounter at all.

That's what I'm saying, that if they keep the encounters thematically fitting (as they should) you'd end up fighting a lot of variations of Fighters (or whatever) and the names would start getting MMO-y. Pirate Fighter, Thug Fighter, Primal Fighter, Feral Fighter etc; i.e. it would be even more bland and impersonal in a bad way. And even if they somehow manage to space the classes around equally it would still be gamey not only because you'd have some nonsensical duplicates (like Xaurip Wizard or Thug Druid), but also because it would be samey if every stock character is named after their class. My proposal would give extra utility to lore while allowing much more thematically consistent names (like instead of Xaurip Wizard, he'd be Xaurip Mystic for example, or Thug Ecoterrorist instead of Druid lol).

Oh I understand what you mean, yes I can see how that could become a problem. I think instead of tying it to any character stat like lore though it would be better to just make it show their class when you hover over them in the panel that shows stats while they keep their names normally.
 

Sizzle

Arcane
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Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,471
What makes you think they would not keep the encounters (which they said will be more sparse and more thought out overall) thematically consistent with their environment? I doubt you'll get a druid as a random thug. I mean I can't even remember from PoE1 itself that sort of thematically unfitting enemy in any encounter at all.

That's what I'm saying, that if they keep the encounters thematically fitting (as they should) you'd end up fighting a lot of variations of Fighters (or whatever) and the names would start getting MMO-y. Pirate Fighter, Thug Fighter, Primal Fighter, Feral Fighter etc; i.e. it would be even more bland and impersonal in a bad way. And even if they somehow manage to space the classes around equally it would still be gamey not only because you'd have some nonsensical duplicates (like Xaurip Wizard or Thug Druid), but also because it would be samey if every stock character is named after their class. My proposal would give extra utility to lore while allowing much more thematically consistent names (like instead of Xaurip Wizard, he'd be Xaurip Mystic for example, or Thug Ecoterrorist instead of Druid lol).

It's logical that the more "esoteric" classes (like the cipher) would be rarer in the mix than the fighter, but that still doesn't mean that most encounters should be: fighter, rogue, wizard.

You can always make up valid lore reasons why, for example, a druid would be aboard a pirate/merchant vessel - they control the elements, and would probably be able to ward off dangerous sea beasties.

On the other hand, if the fight is taking place in a forest, all the enemies shouldn't just be rangers, druids and barbarians - that would also get boring (and predictable) fast.

What I'm trying to say is - think about how to craft an interesting, fun, (if possible) unique combat encounter first, and worry about things like lore reasons later.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
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Messages
17,949
Pathfinder: Wrath
What I'm trying to say is - think about how to craft an interesting, fun, (if possible) unique combat encounter first, and worry about things like lore reasons later.

That's also a problem. Combat encounters and lore aren't separate things, they should go hand in hand. You can always bend lore, to a point, to accommodate a neat combat encounter, but only if your system allows for such. Naming everything after their class would just inevitably clash really badly in some instances. After that the excuse of "but I had this fun idea" would be lame and ring hollow. There are ways to do a coherent world and great encounter design without them being two different things. Otherwise what's the point? Might as well have a corridor with only encounters.
 

Mexi

Dumbfuck!
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I may be in the minority here, but I hope that we get battles against multi-classed foes relatively often.

If the vanilla system of PoE1 managed to produce some interesting and unexpected combinations (like the bounty fight against several high-level chanters, who continuously healed their entire party), then this system seems like it could pull off even better and wackier fights. That is, if they put some effort into planning them out beforehand.
Damn, that sounds like a badass fight. I've still not finished PoE.
 

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,471
What I'm trying to say is - think about how to craft an interesting, fun, (if possible) unique combat encounter first, and worry about things like lore reasons later.

That's also a problem. Combat encounters and lore aren't separate things, they should go hand in hand. You can always bend lore, to a point, to accommodate a neat combat encounter, but only if your system allows for such. Naming everything after their class would just inevitably clash really badly in some instances. After that the excuse of "but I had this fun idea" would be lame and ring hollow. There are ways to do a coherent world and great encounter design without them being two different things. Otherwise what's the point? Might as well have a corridor with only encounters.

Exactly. But I also think that a good enough writer/designer can (usually) make up an interesting enough excuse on why a certain party composition consists of, say, monks. A ship housing an Ondra-related monastic order (TWM2 showed us that encounters like this can be fun and challenging). Rangers with sharks as animal companions. Chanters using their singing (like sirens) to bewitch ship crews so they'll crash upon rocks.

I'm just bullshitting off the top of my head, but you get the idea.
 

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,471
I may be in the minority here, but I hope that we get battles against multi-classed foes relatively often.

If the vanilla system of PoE1 managed to produce some interesting and unexpected combinations (like the bounty fight against several high-level chanters, who continuously healed their entire party), then this system seems like it could pull off even better and wackier fights. That is, if they put some effort into planning them out beforehand.
Damn, that sounds like a badass fight. I've still not finished PoE.

Yeah, the bounties are great. This particular one is from TWM2.
 

Grotesque

±¼ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Divinity: Original Sin Divinity: Original Sin 2
Psure there will be enemies with subclasses who will use their kits, I seriously doubt Sawyer pass on that.

I agree with you about feats, but PoE has been bombarded as being bland (even on aspects it really isn't) so subclasses are likely a pushback against that.

Oh, yeah, I'm 99% sure they are going to use them, that's not the problem. The problem is that they'll likely exist in a vacuum, only relevant to the UI and quickly forgotten about. They won't be a thing that exists in the world of Eora. This is a very important issue that affects all the arts, how the elements are used and are they arbitrary and random or have a structural/narrative purpose. The irrelevant names of the subclasses/multi-classes are a symptom of something deeper, something PoE1 suffered from as well - the complete disconnect between elements. Much of the world building is simply a list of something someone came up with. The names of the subclasses/multi-classes are also literally a recited list of words Sawyer came up with or looked up in a dictionary. We have all these names, places and history, but we don't have a created coherent world in which they matter. That's why I gave the spices analogy, we have all these spices in front of us but we don't have actual food.

Not that having some fluff is bad, it can create a sense of mystery, expectation or being part of a bigger world, but PoE goes overboard with it, being comprised of 90% fluff which these names exacerbates and brings yet again to the table. The blandness of PoE that they are trying to push back against won't be fixed by this, it's just going to deepen the issue.


fanaticism.jpg
 

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
That's also a problem. Combat encounters and lore aren't separate things, they should go hand in hand. You can always bend lore, to a point, to accommodate a neat combat encounter, but only if your system allows for such. Naming everything after their class would just inevitably clash really badly in some instances. After that the excuse of "but I had this fun idea" would be lame and ring hollow. There are ways to do a coherent world and great encounter design without them being two different things. Otherwise what's the point? Might as well have a corridor with only encounters.

There are a lot of assumptions being made here which (sub)class is "exotic" and which isn't - we don't know. It's quite plausible for us to chance upon an island in the Deadfire which is filled with wizards and ruled by a rogue chieftain, because why the fuck not? The setting isn't FR - in PoE all classes are made equal, it's the strength of the one's soul that counts.

I do wonder what they will do with names myself - PoE and the IE games often obfuscate the class of mercenary/adventurer enemies under colourful names, here they might do the same and let it show the true class in the tooltip (very MMOey), stand by tradition and mask it, or make naming standardised. The last one seems the Sawyeriest approach, but I'm not sure it's the most fun one.
 

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