Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[FeelTheRads]

Also one could argue that if a mechanic is shit there's no point in trying to "fix" it. Or that not everything can be fixed no matter how hard you try and think positive thoughts.

 

[Infinitron]

Josh is trying to solve the problem of kiting..

He's trying to solve the problem of mobs walking past your fighter with no opposition and squashing your mage. Don't see how kiting is directly related to this.

 

[AMG]

The problem with your argument is that you're extremely close to saying "all mechanics hold equal value in any given system." Which is obviously a gigantic fallacy. Josh is trying to solve the problem of kiting. He can solve this is any number of ways. He has chosen to solve it with a mechanic that historically has huge issues in a real time environment, and he has provided no arguments or practical examples that would cause us to believe it is going to work.

Care to give an example? Kiting is a desirable mechanic in RTS so "unimplemnting" it isn't as trivial as you might think.
Unless it's something banal like enemies move faster than you, etc.

 

[Grunker]

Josh is trying to solve the problem of kiting..

He's trying to solve the problem of mobs from walking past your fighter with no opposition and squashing your mage. Don't see how kiting is directly related to this.

I was refering to a statement posted by Sensuki I think when we last had this discussion. It doesn't really matter for our argument what he was trying to achieve, my point stands regardless. There are also ways to fix that problem that doesn't involve AoOs.

EDIT: I'm also amazed at how quickly you seem to forget Infinitron. Back when we first had this discussion you were trying to talk me out of it with "but these aren't AoOs". Yet that's pretty much exactly what they are.

 

[mutonizer]

So how is it misinterpreted? We don't talk about a novel here, one sentence is hard to be misinterpreted, more likely it is at is seems, a poorly formulated statement which is incorrect.

Probably but really didn't think that anyone would take "turn based" in that sentence as in XCOMesque turn (you play, I play, etc) and instead take them as DnD turns. But I clarified already, so no need triple rebound on that as I'm fully willing to admit it could, potentially, lead to confusion.

Presentation:
I prefer PoE. BG2's UI was great for it's time but I find PoE's more minimalistic style much more appealing. Also things like scripted adventures add a lot to the game compared to BG2.

I don't particularly disagree on the minimalist, but :
- As it is currently, the "flow" isn't there I think. Sensuki displayed some of the reason why previously. That's just UI so they can improve/re-work it easily.
- Character sheet and inventory UI cannot be minimalist however, especially with the crazy game system they're aiming for, there needs to be shit tons of very detailed tooltips everywhere so players can make informed decisions instead of going: "I have no idea wtf that does...".

Graphics:
Funny you mention this. PoE looks absolutely amazing to me. I find the art itself comparable to BG2 but now it's in high resolution. Not sure what more you want.

No real complain from me either on the visual front except a couple nitpicking here and there (ugh that leather armor!). That said, they need to tone down spell/auras/etc effects I think, it's just way too much as it is right now and you can't see shit.

Sound + music:
Impossible to judge since sound and music have not nearly been implemented fully.

First thing I do in any game I play is turn the music off so can't comment on that either way. As for the rest, yea, it's beta, not worried there and just hoping for good combat and ambient sounds.

Game world:
Don't find one much more appealing then the other. I like both. In PoE I like the colonialism/renessaince time period. It's slightly different then the standard medieval fantasy.

Personal preference. I personally HATE anything renaissance with a passion, and even more anything with guns in my heroic fantasy. But to each his own, not gonna complain here.

Combat:
This one I agree with. BG2's combat was much much much better then PoE's is right now. And I don't see PoE bridging that gap between now and release.

That's the one thing I'm spending most of my time with during beta and while I agree 100% and it's one of the biggest issue for me so far, I just cannot pinpoint exactly what would solve that. It's a grand combination of things that just...don't flow well together, at least for me.
It "could" be great, but no idea how...

Character systems:
BG2 had a very boring character/progression system. PoE is far from perfect but I wouldnt rate it below BG2's system.

As it is now I would. A class is a class is a class in PoE, which I find terrible for replay value. Combined with how the DEF/DT/ACC works, it's really bad. Allowing everyone to use everything doesn't help whatsoever I found.

 

[Infinitron]

Grunker FYI, I've created a thread on the Obsidian forums to advance my idea further: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68...-game-its-not-just-about-the-visual-feedback/

 

[Hormalakh]

Alright, enough useless arguing. This is for beta players who know how the inventory works. I came up with a new version that I worked on last night, ultimately shuffling things around to where they are most logical and flow best. I want some feedback.

The inventory is divided into three chunks:
the left-most gives you combat-oriented information and your portrait,
the middle portion is mainly dedicated to individual inventory
the right-most portion is the party inventory, stash, and party-specific information like crafting,enchanting, camping supplies, and party gold.

So I took that idea and ran with it.

On the left:
1- I added a few more combat-oriented information so that equipping any item should immediately give you feedback on changes.
2- I changed the names to be either three or two letter abbreviations except for the defenses.
3- I changed Stamina to Endurance, added in damage reduction, changed the icon for accuracy to a targeting reticule (which should show a melee accuracy or a ranged accuracy depending on what weapon set you're holding. Made the RH (Right hand) show damage ranges and attack speed as well as the LH (left hand) with a corresponding accuracy for each hand. These LH/RH values update immediately based on the weapon set that you choose.
4- Introduced interrupt and concentration if they are implemented in game.
5- Left the defenses as is.

In the middle, I continued with the idea that this was supposed to represent an individual's inventory. The paperdoll, weapon sets, quick items all correspond as such. So I went further and:
1- put each character's portrait in this section (as opposed to the right-section, the party inventory).
2- Placed a singular "top of stash/belt" of 16 slots for each character. Thus, when you select each character, their corresponding 16-slot inventory will show up.
3- Added two new buttons: one is the "send to stash" (which looks like a finger point to the right) and the other is a "use item" or "drop item" (whichever one they want to use it for). I used the images of the hands of god from the sisteen chapel to represent these because I wanted it to continue with the theme of renaissance fantasy.
4- This middle portion also has another version where the party portraits are to the left of the paperdoll, etc and closer to the left-most portion of the inventory.

The right-most section is really a "party inventory" section. So I made it actually act that way:
1- There is now one singular grid for which you click on one of the top three buttons (STASH, CRAFTING INGREDIENTS, QUEST) to show those items.
2- The left-sided sorting buttons now would highlight those specific items in the whichever inventory type you are in.
3- There is now a "sorting" series of buttons at the top, similar to those on the right. These actually sort your items based on three algorithms: alphabetically (A), cost (the cent image), and number of items in stash (123).
4- I created an "ingredients button" that looks like an anvil. This would show all the ingredients you have collected in the main grid.
5- I placed a scrollbar next to the grid for increased stash space.
6- Camping supplies are now shown on the top right along with party gold since these are all related to the TOTAL that the PARTY has.
7- I moved over the crafting and enchant buttons here, because crafting and enchanting are not really based on individual skill. This way a quick look at the stash and you can start craft with stash items or you an drag and drop an item to be enchanted.

Let me know what y'all think.

 

[Infinitron]

That's nice, but you know Soy-cakes isn't cool with not seeing the entire party inventory on one screen

 

[mutonizer]

Look, it's nice and all, but that's just UI redesign, no real core changes. We all can come up with our own little version of how a UI should look visually (heck, just look at the hundreds of UI mods for some games out there) but at the end of the day, I'm more interested in the core of it, mainly:

• No weight and no way to split the party means no need whatsoever for individual inventories, stash or anything like that. Just have one big inventory with filters, done. Period.
• Ingredients as items are useless since there is no weight and don't think anybody's gonna sell ingredients since money/economy will most likely not be an issue. Get rid of them and their icons and whatnot and instead just use "counters" directly in the crafting/enchanting panels and automatically picked up soon as you start looting any corpse. That's one clutter gone instantly.
• With an entire combat mechanic based around DT specific to damage types, you cannot have weapon sets locking up BOTH right and left hands together because that means you'll need to double up ALL your off-hand items. Therefore, sets should be right hand and left hand based, and stay separate, so that you can switch from hammer to sword in your right hand, while keeping the same exact shield in your left hand.

That's core. How it "looks" visually, I don't really give a shit as long as there is as little mouse clicks to do something as possible.

 

[Hormalakh]

Look, it's nice and all, but that's just UI redesign, no real core changes. We all can come up with our own little version of how a UI should look visually (heck, just look at the hundreds of UI mods for some games out there) but at the end of the day, I'm more interested in the core of it, mainly:

• No weight and no way to split the party means no need whatsoever for individual inventories, stash or anything like that. Just have one big inventory with filters, done. Period.
• Ingredients as items are useless since there is no weight and don't think anybody's gonna sell ingredients since money/economy will most likely not be an issue. Get rid of them and their icons and whatnot and instead just use "counters" directly in the crafting/enchanting panels and automatically picked up soon as you start looting any corpse. That's one clutter gone instantly.
• With an entire combat mechanic based around DT specific to damage types, you cannot have weapon sets locking up BOTH right and left hands together because that means you'll need to double up ALL your off-hand items. Therefore, sets should be right hand and left hand based, and stay separate, so that you can switch from hammer to sword in your right hand, while keeping the same exact shield in your left hand.

That's core. How it "looks" visually, I don't really give a shit as long as there is as little mouse clicks to do something as possible.

So the way stash is supposed to work is that you're supposed to use your top of stash strategically when you're "adventuring" as those are the only items individual party members can hold on to during the day. You aren't allowed to use your stash until you're at camp or an inn. That's the whole point of the individual inventories. If you just put everything in the stash as soon as you find it, you can't use it unless you go all the way back to "home."

The only items that are "available" to you during combat are your quick items and your weapon sets. Your top of stash (that 16 slot inventory space) is available to you outside of combat and without having to go to your stash. This was the whole point of going to this type of inventory system. Less tetris, with still the same amount of strategic planning required.

As for ingredients, this might be true, but sometimes you might pick up an ingredient and as it currently stands, it's difficult to know what ingredients you do have. The counter system doesn't really help if it only works one way: ingredients are only shown for recipes you currently own.

I didn't really understand your last point. Please explain that again.

 

[J_C]

Why specifically?

Personal preference but for me, the combat system, feels like a mobile minigame, not a proper tactical turn based system.
The whole acid/water/fire/earth thing can be interesting if used for VERY specific situations, specific battles, but the way it's designed, for me, it's horrible, gamey and forced.

Jesus Christ, what a shitty, nonsensical excuse. Mainly because the combat of DOS was not like this AT ALL. It was proper tactical combat, and you could mix the element system in a lot of way. Gamey and forced, what the fuck does that mean?

 

[Hormalakh]

That's nice, but you know Soy-cakes isn't cool with not seeing the entire party inventory on one screen

I think it's just as important to be able to see what's in the stash to make informed decisions as to what you want to keep and what you want to stash as it is to see everyone's inventory all at once. Inventory management usually occurs in locations where you're either out of space or when you're looking through your stash. I'm willing to bet that this way is much less button clicking than what they have now.

 

[Athelas]

I have the sneaking suspicion that the beta's lackluster implementation of the inventory is an underhanded way to get us to not only accept, but actively desire a completely gamist, unlimited, weightless inventory.

And it's working.
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68682-sensukis-suggestions-020-inventory-mockup-v2/

 

[Infinitron]

Josh, you sly devil you

 

[mutonizer]

Jesus Christ, what a shitty, nonsensical excuse. Mainly because the combat of DOS was not like this AT ALL. It was proper tactical combat, and you could mix the element system in a lot of way. Gamey and forced, what the fuck does that mean?

Means that it's only there for you to do something despite it's nonsensical nature and the game trains you (or lobotomizes you) to use it every time you see it, as you said, mix element in a lot of ways for combos. That's the idea behind all "super combos" ideas and I really don't see what's tactical about them, at best it's some kind of Tetris in a different format. Now, some people love that stuff and mega combos and whatnot, but in cRPGs, I don't, in fact, really hate it.

I didn't really understand your last point. Please explain that again.

Stash is silly in and of itself as a core concept in PoE. There is absolutely no need for it whatsoever so it feels, at least to me, and here is them words again, gamey and forced. Gamey because it's there to be there, without any real reason to be there but to be there, and Forced, because it feels artificial and yet forces you to submit to it's illogical logic, without any way around it.

As for the last point, it's simple.
As it is currently, all weapons sets are right hand AND left hand combined. So, if you have a fighter for example, he'd need to have one longsword, one mace and TWO shields (one in each sets) if he wants to be able to swap during combat. This is bullshit design.
What it needs to be, is right hand with 3 possible sets, left hands with 3 possible sets and allow the player to switch right hand during combat, without changing left hand, etc.

I have the sneaking suspicion that the beta's lackluster implementation of the inventory is an underhanded way to get us to not only accept, but actively desire a completely gamist, unlimited, weightless inventory.

Well, when something's bullshit and the guys in charge arn't gonna move, all you can do is try and make it a bit less bullshit in it's bullshitness, or at least remove the pretends.

 

[J_C]

Jesus Christ, what a shitty, nonsensical excuse. Mainly because the combat of DOS was not like this AT ALL. It was proper tactical combat, and you could mix the element system in a lot of way. Gamey and forced, what the fuck does that mean?

Means that it's only there for you to do something despite it's nonsensical nature and the game trains you (or lobotomizes you) to use it every time you see it, as you said, mix element in a lot of ways for combos. That's the idea behind all "super combos" ideas and I really don't see what's tactical about them, at best it's some kind of Tetris in a different format. Now, some people love that stuff and mega combos and whatnot, but in cRPGs, I don't, in fact, really hate it.
.

So having more options in combat is bad now? Interesting.

 

[mutonizer]

So having more options in combat is bad now? Interesting.

What?
We're not talking about more actions, we're talking about the actions themselves.
Look, if you think wack'a mole mingames and silly super mega combos in your tactical turn based games is the second coming of whoeverthefuckshouldcomeasecondtime, then feel free to love D:OS, but I don't is all. For all their flaws, at least WL2 and PoE spare me of that bullshit.

But you're in luck, DA:I will be full of that stuff and mega combos and explosions and buttons and awesomes!

 

[Answermancer]

I'm messing around with the new build and wondering, does anyone know if there's a way to see a characters real action speed now from all the different bonuses/maluses combined? I can't find it if so.

Also are these additive or multiplicative? Like if I have 20 Dex and Plate Armor is my effective speed:
1 * 0.5 * 1.2 = 0.6 or
1 - 0.5 + 0.2 = 0.7?

I'm guessing multiplicative since they're all being shown as percents... I see that fighters (or at least BB Fighter) also get "-16% Armor speed penalty", so is that subtracted from the armor penalty (50% - 16% = 34% penalty) or like... does it multiply the penaly (50% * 84% = 42% penalty)?

Really I just feel like they need to show the final number somewhere.

 

[J_C]

So having more options in combat is bad now? Interesting.

What?
We're not talking about more actions, we're talking about the actions themselves.
Look, if you think wack'a mole mingames and silly super mega combos in your tactical turn based games is the second coming of whoeverthefuckshouldcomeasecondtime, then feel free to love D:OS, but I don't is all. For all their flaws, at least WL2 and PoE spare me of that bullshit.

But you're in luck, DA:I will be full of that stuff and mega combos and explosions and buttons and awesomes!

Whatever dude, whatever...

 

[Seaking4]

I have the sneaking suspicion that the beta's lackluster implementation of the inventory is an underhanded way to get us to not only accept, but actively desire a completely gamist, unlimited, weightless inventory.

And it's working.
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68682-sensukis-suggestions-020-inventory-mockup-v2/

I hope so. As far as I'm concerned having a limited inventory only matters when you are forced to make difficult decisions about what to keep. I never really had that 'problem' in the IE games so I hope they go the unlimited (KOTOR) route and just let me carry everything everywhere. Does it make sense? No. Don't really care though.

 

[Makagulfazel]

Does it make sense? No. Don't really care though.

I agree. Does it work in games like Jagged Alliance or Witcher where you can only carry a limited number of weapons? Sure. But when I have a character carrying around 4 two-handed swords, 3 plate mails and Valygar's body(just for fun) I've kinda suspended disbelief already and don't care to play the inventory management game.

 

[kris]

So how is it misinterpreted? We don't talk about a novel here, one sentence is hard to be misinterpreted, more likely it is at is seems, a poorly formulated statement which is incorrect.

Probably but really didn't think that anyone would take "turn based" in that sentence as in XCOMesque turn (you play, I play, etc) and instead take them as DnD turns. But I clarified already, so no need triple rebound on that as I'm fully willing to admit it could, potentially, lead to confusion.

There are no DnD turns in Baldurs gate. It is real-time with cycles, like every real-time game ever. I think you showed here perfectly that you don't understand what a turn is.

 

[DeepOcean]

The problem with your argument is that you're extremely close to saying "all mechanics hold equal value in any given system." Which is obviously a gigantic fallacy. Josh is trying to solve the problem of kiting. He can solve this is any number of ways. He has chosen to solve it with a mechanic that historically has huge issues in a real time environment, and he has provided no arguments or practical examples that would cause us to believe it is going to work.

Care to give an example? Kiting is a desirable mechanic in RTS so "unimplemnting" it isn't as trivial as you might think.
Unless it's something banal like enemies move faster than you, etc.

Solutions for kiting:
Limit the range of the starting shitty bows and crossbows unless you have really big strengh to use the more powerful ones, when you find them.
You having the exact same running speed that most enemies so you need magic to outrun them.
After the first shot, bows and crossbows only reload when the characters aren't walking or the character has to stop a little to aim before fire.
Any character that enters in the zone of control of an enemy melee character is rooted in place unless the attention of the enemy melee character is broken by stun, sucessiful backstab, special abilities and etc.
Arrows do small damage relative to the DT from the enemy armor. Unless you have uber bows or spells that enhance the arrows, they are more like annoying pebbles to the enemies than lethal sniper rifles of death like they were on most Infinite Engine games.
While the things I read on this thread make me disappointed, if Sawyer fixes two things: 1) enemies going for your mage and squishy characters and you doing the same without the enemies and you being able to do anything about it and 2) the bow sniper team tactic from the Infinite Engine games should be made less OP. He fix those two things, half the problems I have with the Infinite Engine games combat is fixed.

 

[Grunker]

He can solve this is any number of ways.

Care to give an example?

Eh? It's pretty obvious. Many games have built-in solutions for abusing bad AI and differences between melee and range. E.g.: decrease movement speed when using ranged weapons (simple and clean), give melee users ways to lock down or slow ranged users etc.

 

[Shannow]

So how is it misinterpreted? We don't talk about a novel here, one sentence is hard to be misinterpreted, more likely it is at is seems, a poorly formulated statement which is incorrect.

Probably but really didn't think that anyone would take "turn based" in that sentence as in XCOMesque turn (you play, I play, etc) and instead take them as DnD turns. But I clarified already, so no need triple rebound on that as I'm fully willing to admit it could, potentially, lead to confusion.

There are no DnD turns in Baldurs gate. It is real-time with cycles, like every real-time game ever. I think you showed here perfectly that you don't understand what a turn is.

K. Stupid and an arsehole. Carry on then.