Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Sensuki]

Every time I make a video, I'm afraid that Josh will nerf it

 

[Ellef]

Do you think combat and combat builds are getting more interesting/tactical with each new patch or is still a bit of a chore to slug through? I've barely played 3 hours of the BB, because the combat just hasn't been fun.

I still find the lack of feedback, unit spacing, and lack of pseudo-rounds a problem a month from release, but i'm probably just too slow nowadays. SitS has RtwP closer to my ideal at the moment.

 

[veevoir]

I tell you what, two Fighters with 3 Knockdowns per encounter each is amazing lol.

Sounds like a team that parties like hardcore skinheads. I want a skill for kicking the shit out of prone enemies!

 

[Sensuki]

Do you think combat and combat builds are getting more interesting/tactical with each new patch or is still a bit of a chore to slug through? I've barely played 3 hours of the BB, because the combat just hasn't been fun.

I still find the lack of feedback, unit spacing, and lack of pseudo-rounds a problem a month from release, but i'm probably just too slow nowadays. SitS has RtwP closer to my ideal at the moment.

I will quote myself from Something Awful yesterday where I was talking about character builds, but IMO character building has morphed into THE best thing about the game on the combat side of things, from being mediocre at the start of the beta

Been doing a lot of testing of different character builds this patch, and IMO that's where this game really shines on the combat side of things. There are lots of different viable character builds and discovering more and more effective ones has been really fun. What I mean by that is, if you want to execute a particular concept of a character for combat - "A Ridiculous Blunderbuss guy" or whatever, there is enough depth there for you to be able to do that and do it pretty well (under/overpowered issues aside).

I'm a power gamer, so when I make a character, I don't think about whether I want my character to be smart or whatever, and I pick Attributes based on efficacy for executing the build. I still think Attributes need work, but the ability, talent and gear selection part is where it's at.

Today's build was based off something someone said on the Obsidian forums. We were discussing the talent Penetrating Shot and whether it was a useful talent to have. One guy suggested that he made a Hunting Bow Chanter with that talent and the Chant that improves reload speed, and that was an effective build (and the *only* build currently where Hunting Bows are actually useful). Another guy said that it would probably be good on the Blunderbuss, because the Blunderbuss is a low damage weapon that fires multiple projectiles. I thought hmm, that would be *even better* with the item "Lead Spitter".

So I made an Aumaua Rogue with 21 Might (+33% damage), took Weapon Focus (Ruffian) for +6 Accuracy with Blunderbusses and Penetrating Shot. I picked the two Rogue weapon-based attacks (Crippling Strike and Blinding Strike) because the Blunderbuss is a slow reloading weapon. Every shot counts - so may as well stack every shot with a x1.25 damage multiplier and a status effect to boot. Opened up combat with a Fighter Knockdown (due to combat state restrictions, opening combat with any character that has passives that activate in combat is a loser, as you don't get the bonuses if you open with them, which is super dumb - so you have to attack with another character, wait until after the hit frame of the attack and then a few moments more for the passives to activate THEN attack).

*BOOM* first attack, insta-killed the Ranger in one shot sneak attack Blinding Strike. 12 DT bypass, so no armor protection at all from Fine Brigandine Armor. Had to wait a while to reload, but the second attack nearly completely took out another character from full health. Only got the two shots off in combat, but it still racked up over 100 damage. Not the highest of the party, but very useful/effective because of the damage mitigation from dropping one enemy straight away.

(as a side note, the Blunderbuss -10 Accuracy is probably too much, especially for non-'magical' blunderbusses, I'd suggest reducing it to -7, or -5 or something)

It's totally possible to make a trash build, but there's also lots of good ones. I personally find that specialization is better than dabbling in different types of things (like mixed offense/defense), but it depends on the class though.

Between v257 and v435, opening up the character progression and adding new talents has only been a good thing and every build it's getting better. There's a lot of depth there to explore when making characters.

Unfortunately IMO, the actual combat gameplay itself isn't that riveting. I find that the game is super stacked towards effective character building and encounter strategy, but fairly devoid of actual reactivity in combat - as in, I don't find I have to adjust what I do based on what the enemy does. Reactions are limited to casting Suppress Affliction(or similar), and healing my party members. This is partially because of the removal of counterspelling, and also the engagement system. The good thing is though, is that it's more involving than Baldur's Gate 1. The combat in BG1 was pretty simple, and Pillars of Eternity does beat it. I personally think that while PE really excels on the character building and strategy side, that Icewind Dale: Heart of Winter, BG2 and IWD2 beat it as far as reactive combat goes - the combat/gameplay in those games has a lot of depth regarding reacting to what enemies do, different (tactical, rather than strategical) ways to beat encounters and reactive movement. A lot of people complain about those games because they found one repetitive tactic that worked on most encounters, and thus ruined the fun for them. Those types of things exist in Pillars of Eternity at the moment, too. However anytime I stumble across one, I report it.

I think there's a lot of room for improvement here - but it's a strong foundation to build upon for expansions and sequels.

I think everyone here will have fun building characters.

The problems you listed are fair complaints tbh, and valid ones. Combat itself definitely has problems with speed, clarity, camera angle, unit spacing, unit obscurity - all that stuff. It also has problems with pathfinding, AI and reactivity in combat. It's not very tactical, combat is usually decided by the effectiveness of your build and whether or not you fucked up your opening actions and positioning.

 

[Roguey]

Josh did it, he fixed D&D, good job.

 

[Sensuki]

Character building is fun, but the actual gameplay has quite a few problems. Regardless, as I said in the SA post - it's a strong foundation to build upon.

Attribute design still needs help/tweaking - but class/ability/talent/gear selection is really good. There's a plethora of combos, and lots of unexplored territory as to what you can actually do with builds.

 

[Roguey]

They have a month of tuning left to do and they're in a better position than inXile was when they had one month left to go.

 

[aeonsim]

I tell you what, two Fighters with 3 Knockdowns per encounter each is amazing lol.

Sounds like a team that parties like hardcore skinheads. I want a skill for kicking the shit out of prone enemies!

There are some weapons which get bonuses against prone enemies, and of course the rogue gets sneak attacks against them...

 

[Sensuki]

They have a month of tuning left to do and they're in a better position than inXile was when they had one month left to go.

Sure, they can tune stuff. My problem with the combat isn't necessarily tuning it's more things missing from the design. The No Engagement mod will probably fix some of the issues with tactical movement, but they need to work on AI/Pathfinding/Animation Blending when attacking moving targets and probably need some more complex spell/ability systems to promote actual tactical gameplay that illicits reactions from the player based on enemy actions. Currently I'm finding that if I don't stuff up my positioning and opening set of actions (Ability choice/targeting choice) in combat, that's pretty much it for me other than selecting new targets, healing allies and in some encounters, casting something that suppresses Afflictions.

BTW yesterday I submitted my 100th bug report thread for this patch Probably made around 400-500 total now.

 

[Maculo]

Sensuki, do you have build ideas for priests by chance?

 

[AwesomeButton]

They have a month of tuning left to do and they're in a better position than inXile was when they had one month left to go.

Sure, they can tune stuff. My problem with the combat isn't necessarily tuning it's more things missing from the design. The No Engagement mod will probably fix some of the issues with tactical movement, but they need to work on AI/Pathfinding/Animation Blending when attacking moving targets and probably need some more complex spell/ability systems to promote actual tactical gameplay that illicits reactions from the player based on enemy actions. Currently I'm finding that if I don't stuff up my positioning and opening set of actions (Ability choice/targeting choice) in combat, that's pretty much it for me other than selecting new targets, healing allies and in some encounters, casting something that suppresses Afflictions.

BTW yesterday I submitted my 100th bug report thread for this patch Probably made around 400-500 total now.

From what I've seen in the Beta and from what Sensuki has shown throughout the last few months, my conclusions are:
1. Abandon all hope for balance in combat at release and at least for a few months after that
2. Enemies' targeting logic is wide open to abuse, if the player wants to take advantage of it.

Personally, I'll try to know as little as possible about the AI and targeting, otherwise I expect won't resist playing optimally and I'll ruin my first playthrough.

 

[Sensuki]

^ Pretty much.

Sensuki, do you have build ideas for priests by chance?

Priests don't have as many character building options because you don't select abilities, you just get new spells. One downside of Priests and Druids is they build very similarly. Personally I don't care about that, because it's the way you play that matters. Priests, Druids and Wizards are also kind of hamstringed a little bit because of the per-rest limitations of their spells. I don't like resting often. I play on Hard, where you get 2 camping supplies only. So on easier difficulties where you can rest more often - they'll play a lot better because you will be able to use their spells more often. On Hard and PotD you'll have to be careful about using their spells.

Priests aren't really a class that goes into man-fight mode like my other demos. I'll try and think of something gimmicky to show off in a few days or something. There'll probably be something hilarious to discover.

 

[Athelas]

Character building is fun, but the actual gameplay has quite a few problems. Regardless, as I said in the SA post - it's a strong foundation to build upon.

Attribute design still needs help/tweaking - but class/ability/talent/gear selection is really good. There's a plethora of combos, and lots of unexplored territory as to what you can actually do with builds.

I dunno, I think attributes are at a much better place than talents and abilities. Taking the wizard for example, something like Arcane Veil that is supposed to be a mage's panic button is utter garbage. And I find most of his spells are useless; there's less than a handful of spells each spell level that are good (making the system of switching out grimoires also superfluous).

And yeah, they nerfed the paladin auras so that you literally have to be standing side by side to them in combat to benefit from them.

 

[Sensuki]

Arcane Veil is fucking horrible - yes. However Arcane Assault is great. Blast (and Penetrating Blast) are also great. Lots of their spells are quite good. I'm reluctant to use them a lot of the time because they're per rest. I have some Wizard builds in mind, and I'll make some videos of those soon. One of the obs board users found some roflcopter uses for some of the spells.

There's this one called Combusting Wounds which adds 10 burn damage to some dudes every time they're hit in combat for a short duration. Cast that on someone and shoot them with a Blunderbuss - potentially up to 80 damage from that spell, on top of what you did with the Blunderbuss.

They overnerfed Paladins way too much. Currently they're down in SHIT TIER with the Ranger, but not quite as bad.

 

[Infinitron]

Sensuki Interesting. You should make a thread called "Wizards are NOT shit" on the Obsidian forums sometime. Assuming it doesn't exist already.

 

[Sensuki]

I've been saying for a while that they are useful in combat, but they're basically just AoE damage dealers. They have one of the best CC spells in the game (Slicken) and some other ok ones. Their self-buffs are useless though and they're pretty one dimensional to play.

They're an effective class IMO, it's just that they lack the depth of the D&D Wizard.

The self-buffs are useless for a few reasons. One of them is because PE maps are smaller than the IE games and encounters are a lot more 'focused', you don't have enemies coming at you from different sides of the screen like you would in IWD1, BG2 or IWD2 you walk somewhere and there's a bunch of guys tightly together, and it's very easy for you to position your frontline to protect the backline.

The second reason is because of no pre-buffing. When you cast a self-buff, you are wasting actions in combat that could be otherwise used for dealing damage. Third is because it's a waste of a spell slot. Sure you could buff yourself, but that's one less Fireball, Slicken or whatever other more useful spell that you could have cast instead that would actually help you win the encounter.

The fourth reason is because the self-buffs have been nerfed. The PE equivalent of Mirror Image won't protect you from a few attacks, it will just raise your Deflection, which means you will probably get hit anyway, with your abysmal base Deflection. There's no Stoneskin or anything either. Just stuff that gives you DR. Miserable DR. You could just drink a Potion of Iron Skin for +20 DR, and even then, it would be a fucking waste most of the time, because if you're actually thinking about drinking a Potion of Iron Skin on a Wizard, it's because there's something like a Dire Bear about to hit you, and 20 DR isn't going to save you, you'll get critted for 90 damage and dropped in one hit.

 

[veevoir]

There's this one called Combusting Wounds which adds 10 burn damage to some dudes every time they're hit in combat for a short duration. Cast that on someone and shoot them with a Blunderbuss - potentially up to 80 damage from that spell, on top of what you did with the Blunderbuss.

Holy fucking MCA jumping on a pogo stick. I just imagined what would happen if that was used before your Blunderbuss rufian goes into full auto mode.


As for Arcane Veil - it is just another step in a long trend PoE has to capitalize as much as possible on alpha strike and damage dealing. Investing in defenses anything other than a few coins for an armor - is folly.

 

[Athelas]

Arcane Veil is fucking horrible - yes. However Arcane Assault is great. Blast (and Penetrating Blast) are also great.

You get Arcane Assault automatically at chargen, so that leaves only the Blast talents for class talents - which isn't much of a choice on odd-numbered level-ups.

Lots of their spells are quite good.

They have a huge amount of spells, but only a few are good. I.e. Binding Web is 1 spell level higher than Tanglefoot, yet the former has a fraction of the area of effect and duration of the latter.

I'm reluctant to use them a lot of the time because they're per rest.

Their resource pool is less flexible than the other spellcasting classes, since they're still following the memorization routine. The obvious solution would be to bump up the power of their spells (or *gasp* even make them hard-counter...ish).

There's this one called Combusting Wounds which adds 10 burn damage to some dudes every time they're hit in combat for a short duration. Cast that on someone and shoot them with a Blunderbuss - potentially up to 80 damage from that spell, on top of what you did with the Blunderbuss.

I know. Combusting Wounds is my favorite wizard spell.

 

[Maculo]

^ Pretty much.

Sensuki, do you have build ideas for priests by chance?

Priests don't have as many character building options because you don't select abilities, you just get new spells. One downside of Priests and Druids is they build very similarly. Personally I don't care about that, because it's the way you play that matters. Priests, Druids and Wizards are also kind of hamstringed a little bit because of the per-rest limitations of their spells. I don't like resting often. I play on Hard, where you get 2 camping supplies only. So on easier difficulties where you can rest more often - they'll play a lot better because you will be able to use their spells more often. On Hard and PotD you'll have to be careful about using their spells.

Priests aren't really a class that goes into man-fight mode like my other demos. I'll try and think of something gimmicky to show off in a few days or something. There'll probably be something hilarious to discover.

Thanks, I definitely forgot about the camp supply limits on higher difficulties.

I have not been able to play lately, but originally I was thinking of rogues buffed with dire blessing (increased crit?). I was never able to test it though.

 

[Sensuki]

Minoletta's Minor Missiles and Jolting Touch USED to be good, but they fucking nerfed them a few patches back. They do fucking nothing now. Thrust of the Tattered Veils is better than both of them.

1st level I like these

Eldritch Aim
Fan of Flames
Slicken - one of the best Wizard spells
Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights

2nd level

Combusting Wounds
Binding Web - you're right about it being way worse than Tanglefoot, way worse.
Fetid Caress
Necrotic Lance - does pretty nice damage, actually

3rd

Deleterious Alacrity of Motion - good, way better than it used to be
Expose Vulnerabilities - not bad
Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage
Minoletta's Bounding Missiles
Arcane Dampener

(Fireball and Noxious Burst used to be good, but Josh nerfed them in v392 or something, now I don't use them)

4th

Minoletta's Concussive Missiles
Wall of Flames - SUUUUPER GOOD, when it works, anyway

But yes, they have lots of dud spells and whatever Wizards have as spells, Druids probably also have it, and it could be lower level, have a larger AoE and deal more damage than the Wizard counterpart.

What I think makes Wizards valuable is their Blast ability and Arcane Assault, just with those two things alone I deal a fair bit of damage every encounter.

 

[Maculo]

Of all the classes, Wizards seem like the biggest mess. I am not sure what the design goal was aside from fire ball, AOE. Maybe it will become more clear at max level.

 

[Infinitron]

The fourth reason is because the self-buffs have been nerfed. The PE equivalent of Mirror Image won't protect you from a few attacks, it will just raise your Deflection, which means you will probably get hit anyway, with your abysmal base Deflection. There's no Stoneskin or anything either. Just stuff that gives you DR. Miserable DR. You could just drink a Potion of Iron Skin for +20 DR, and even then, it would be a fucking waste most of the time, because if you're actually thinking about drinking a Potion of Iron Skin on a Wizard, it's because there's something like a Dire Bear about to hit you, and 20 DR isn't going to save you, you'll get critted for 90 damage and dropped in one hit.

Have you considered that the DR-raising abilities are actually meant for "melee mage" builds, ie, to facilitate PoE's equivalent of multi-classing? In other words, that they're something that's supposed to top off an already relatively high Deflection score.

You seem to be thinking of them instead as "last minute save" type abilities intended to save your standard weakling mage's ass in case he gets caught out in the open and ambushed.

 

[Duraframe300]

The same can certainly be said of Pillars of Eternity, but that is also a different sort of partnership. Obsidian and Paradox are co-publishing the game but Paradox aren't really involved in funding the game. Instead they lend their expertise in publishing and marketing. What is notable is that talks are also in place regarding further co-operation between Paradox and Obsidian further down the line. While nothing is set in stone, Pillars of Eternity could spell the beginning of a beautiful friendship. The recent breaking news on Eternity 2, though, should perhaps be taken with a pile of salt. Josh Sawyer, game director, simply laughed it off saying he had no "Eternity 2 meeting" planned. But naturally they are thinking about doing it at some point, though for now, the focus is on finishing Pillars of Eternity and producing its DLC.

 

[Infinitron]

The same can certainly be said of Pillars of Eternity, but that is also a different sort of partnership. Obsidian and Paradox are co-publishing the game but Paradox aren't really involved in funding the game. Instead they lend their expertise in publishing and marketing. What is notable is that talks are also in place regarding further co-operation between Paradox and Obsidian further down the line. While nothing is set in stone, Pillars of Eternity could spell the beginning of a beautiful friendship. The recent breaking news on Eternity 2, though, should perhaps be taken with a pile of salt. Josh Sawyer, game director, simply laughed it off saying he had no "Eternity 2 meeting" planned. But naturally they are thinking about doing it at some point, though for now, the focus is on finishing Pillars of Eternity and producing its DLC.

Source dammit http://www.gamereactor.eu/articles/290874/Paradox+Convention+2015:+No+News+is+Good+News?/

 

[Duraframe300]

The same can certainly be said of Pillars of Eternity, but that is also a different sort of partnership. Obsidian and Paradox are co-publishing the game but Paradox aren't really involved in funding the game. Instead they lend their expertise in publishing and marketing. What is notable is that talks are also in place regarding further co-operation between Paradox and Obsidian further down the line. While nothing is set in stone, Pillars of Eternity could spell the beginning of a beautiful friendship. The recent breaking news on Eternity 2, though, should perhaps be taken with a pile of salt. Josh Sawyer, game director, simply laughed it off saying he had no "Eternity 2 meeting" planned. But naturally they are thinking about doing it at some point, though for now, the focus is on finishing Pillars of Eternity and producing its DLC.

Source dammit

Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk (Weird laugh)

http://www.gamereactor.eu/articles/290874/Paradox+Convention+2015:+No+News+is+Good+News?/