KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

[UnstableVoltage]

I've mentioned this before - and this is a purely personal opinion of an almost 40-year-old gamer.... I would LOVE Julian to do a straight-up remake of X-Com (obviously he can't use the same name/IP). I'd love an X-Com clone with modern assets. And while I know for certain there are some people who would also love that, I'm honestly not sure there would ever be enough of us to put enough money in to make that kind of game. Sure, Xenonauts has been successful - but we're also talking about a much smaller team there. While the graphics are an improvement over OG X-Com, what we're attempting with PP is to have something closer to AAA polish.

I think Snapshot did make it clear from the start (long before I ever joined them), that this wasn't going to just be a remake of X-Com. I think it was also fairly obvious that aspects of the nuXComs would make their way in. I also appreciate that, over the last year, certain design elements have changed and evolved.

The most important feedback you guy can offer is when you can make a valid argument for your case. Sure, be passionate - just try not to be jerks. "Angry" feedback just looks like the vocal minority and often gets dismissed.

Going back to the survey, there were fewer than 2000 responses. Between Fig backers and pre-orders, there are over 20,000 people invested in Phoenix Point - and that's not counting the ones who are still on the fence. Some of the individual submissions to that survey varied wildly. Some placing a specific feature right at the top, while others placed the same feature at the very bottom. It is still my personal opinion that the sample size was far too small to really get an accurate account.

While controller support may well have been low on the list - it's also fairly simple and cheap to implement. Certainly, it does require some UI concessions - unless you just go for a controller driven mouse cursor. I believe the closeness of our UI to the nuXCom games is purely because that's what the vast majority of our player-base and potential customers are used to. Us OG X-Com players are a dying breed. If you could see our demographics, you would realise that most of the people who have shown an interest in PP weren't even alive when OG X-Com was a thing.

I understand that a lot of you guys here really love the original (I do too!), but we're a very tiny percentage.

Julian has promised a mix, a hybrid. I believe he can deliver (and of course, I'm going to say that either way - I'm on the payroll). But I backed Phoenix Point for $105 long before I joined the team. As often as I can, I try to steer the design decisions back towards OG X-Com, and remind them that that's closer to what we promised. Sometimes I like to use you guys as the stick to beat them with. That's hard to do when things become ungentlemanly. So help me out here.

Julian is certainly aware that he has two sets of fans to please. X-Com fans, and XCOM fans. I know a lot of you would sooner it just be one or the other. My fear in that case, would be XCOM - there's a much larger player-base there.

Fight for what you want. I promise I pass all of these concerns on. But at the same time, don't write the game off just because something isn't implemented exactly the way you would like to see it. There's still plenty of time to influence development. You've got a hotline here directly to Julian.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

However, certain members do themselves a disservice.

Honestly, you do yourselves a disservice if you dismiss critical insights and only listen to what you like to hear. Hearing criticism now is much better than hearing criticism after it is too late.

For those on Facebook, there's an AMA with Julian on Friday at 1pm PST / 9pm GMT. Feel free to come along and pose your questions and concerns directly to him. Again, as long as they're asked in a civil way, they will get attention.

Will only questions submitted on social media be addressed? Or are my comments here being considered?

Why is any important discussion being conducted on facebook at all? Impossible to search, comments are unthreaded, and mostly low effort.

Pretty much all of our advertising is going through Facebook at the moment (you know, limited budget). FB is where we have our biggest social following. It's also near real-time live video - so it's much easier to get an answer from Julian directly. Questions submitted to the comments of that AMA will be addressed, as will ones submitted to the form I posted. The AMA remains on the FB page to watch a later date if you can't attend. We also summarise with Q&As and put them up on our website within a few days of the AMA.

I mean, I'm offering you a way to get your concerns addressed directly by the creative director, and you're more concerned about which platform it's being conducted on ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[PanteraNera]

...

I have to say I like the person that just posted a lot more than the CommunityManager.

 

[Zombra]

So wait. The plan is to release for PC only, but deliberately make UI concessions (i.e. "dumb it down") to enable controllers anyway? Am I so out of touch, or does this seem really weird?

I'd really like to see the results of that survey question on this massive data influx that's coming.
How many people are really checking
Choose one:
☐ I would prefer a complex, efficient, intuitive control scheme for mouse & keyboard only on my PC.
☑ I would prefer a dumber, less efficient control scheme on my PC as long as I don't have to touch my m&k which are sitting right here.

 

[PanteraNera]

Okay, let's talk like gentleman's with logic

While the graphics are an improvement over OG X-Com, what we're attempting with PP is to have something closer to AAA polish.

AAA polish is worrisome, as are controller-support, as is everything extra, for example the crabman overhaul. Don't get me wrong, I love the new crabman, it was just not necessary. You have a limited budget, the last answer I saw on discord regarding voice-overs and implementation of the story is "to be decided"/depends on how much money is left.
You guys will sooner or later run out of money, I think it is save to say, that you do not have the funds to make the whole game feel AAA and most certainly NuXCOM players will dislike that the most. There is no communication about that at all and from information I got (mainly from discord) it often looks like that you (Snapshoot Games) have not a solid plan.

I think it was also fairly obvious that aspects of the nuXComs would make their way in.

Yes it was, thing is right now it looks more the other way around, that some aspects of the original XCOM would make their way in. I do not know if it is, as it seems, or bad presentation, or that a lot of that will change later in development. Communicating what is in, what is not in, what is in consideration would be wise, so people get a grasp for what to come.

Going back to the survey, there were fewer than 2000 responses. Between Fig backers and pre-orders, there are over 20,000 people invested in Phoenix Point - and that's not counting the ones who are still on the fence. Some of the individual submissions to that survey varied wildly. Some placing a specific feature right at the top, while others placed the same feature at the very bottom. It is still my personal opinion that the sample size was far too small to really get an accurate account.

Than do a new survey. Communicate with your bakers and potential customers.
Also consider that the original 1861 response are your core base and who ever read the results of the survey while the fig campaign was going on, might have pledged for the project because of these very results.

While controller support may well have been low on the list - it's also fairly simple and cheap to implement.

With limited resources it is still, questionable to do something even "cheap" that was clearly not wanted in the initial pitch. Like I said before, it is not just the controller support that worries me, it's the whole little things that add up.

Julian has promised a mix, a hybrid. I believe he can deliver

I believe that as well, I am just not convinced that he will.

 

[Shog-goth]

I'm honestly not sure there would ever be enough of us to put enough money in to make that kind of game.

Strange, I thought we did that already: https://www.fig.co/campaigns/phoenix-point

Going back to the survey, there were fewer than 2000 responses. Between Fig backers and pre-orders, there are over 20,000 people invested in Phoenix Point - and that's not counting the ones who are still on the fence.

So why Julian has aknowledged It? A little provocation: do another backers survey round, I'm pretty sure you would have the same results cause PP was backed by enthusiasts, not nuXcomers.

 

[Infinitron]

It's nice that Snapshot are paying so much attention to us considering this isn't even a strategy/tactical games website.

Anyway PanteraNera and Shog-goth are being kind of dickish itt imo

 

[Shog-goth]

Anyway PanteraNera and Shog-goth are being kind of dickish itt imo

I'm sorry, I must be wrong: I thought I signed up on the Codex.

 

[Infinitron]

Hey, that's just my opinion, I'm not going to stop you.

Just don't see much point in all this aggressive armchair project management ("DO ANOTHER SURVEY ASSHOLE"). The guy knows what you want.

For the record I'd rather they not work on a console interface either.

 

[Shog-goth]

"DO ANOTHER SURVEY ASSHOLE"

Where did I wrote such a thing? I've always been polite.

 

[ArchAngel]

Run and hide boys, new boss has arrived..

 

[Shog-goth]

Just to understand: arguing with passion and determination without insults and swearing has now become being rude? Because on this same board I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Shog-goth]

yes. get your language in line

Funny, I must be lost in translation because I can't believe you're serious. I just voiced my detailed opinion without personal attacks to anyone and now I'm the bad guy?

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

This is same video that was posted earlier but now I got some new comments about it.
UnstableVoltage in this video I noticed one problem right away, changing weapons changes how much you can move before firing. That means that many many players will either need to cycle weapons to see how much they can move with each or they will have wrong one selected, move too much and then not be able to still fire. Current UI is pretty bad for this. You need to add that players can mouse over other weapon and movement range for them will be shown so it is not needed to click and rotate them all the time. Also don't have a rotating UI, let us select directly what we want to use (leave rotating menu for console version or something). Current UI looks made for consoles, not PC.

2nd, I find it funny that shooting a rocket takes so little TU, I hope that is because these Jericho guys got some cool high tech launchers. I hope game has multiple rocket launchers and that the big ones take more TU to fire and restrict movement more (also fire bigger rocket that do more damage).

Given only the firing range changes but not the max range, a better option seems like it would be to just have each of the three weapon icons color coded and show all three ranges with the corresponding colors at the same time. That way you wouldn't need to rotate or move the mouse across the screen over each weapon to see what it does, you could just look at the screen without doing anything and see your three firing options at once.

If the cycle only goes one way there's better ways of doing that on a controller too. I mean you've only got three options, pressing up and down on the d-pad to select a weapon that's above or below your main weapon seems like a quicker way of quickly selecting the other two weapons than a one button cycle opinion.

It's not the same video, it's actually a different one.

I agree about having to have the correct piece of equipment selected to avoid over-moving. It's something that I have already brought up, and the dev team are aware of it. That said, the UI is always a constant work in progress - every time you add/change a feature or mechanic, the UI has to change to support that.

You can actually directly select the item by clicking on it - but the game is also built with controller support, hence why there's an option to cycle. As there are only 3 items, it's going to take a maximum of 2 key/button presses to get to every other item on the wheel.

I believe the reason the HMG takes so long to fire is because it has to spool up, and then fire a large burst. The NJ rocket launcher is essentially hands-free.

So exactly how do hit boxes and this games ballistics system work together? Because I'm watching that video and noticed the first enemy you encounter that's behind cover has a swaying idle animation that seems to be giving you more and less target area depending on where it is in the animation cycle. Does this have an effect on how likely or unlikely you are to hit more of it, do you need to time when we shoot?

 

[DeepOcean]

I say this with the greatest respect - you guy are a tough crowd.

We aren't a tough crowd and wish you and your team to succeed, if you do it right, we will have a pretty good game and you guys will have a successful project, a win win situation. The problem is we want a practical PC interface and we fear, based on the long history of developers doing this, the dreaded : "We are going to make the interface focused on console controllers and we will cut corners by not making a PC centric interface option. Nobody care about that right?"

It isn't that we don't want a new experience, we know pretty well how a controller works and it is exactly for that that we want PC controls. You have your duty to defend your company, I understand, but we understand the consequences of design decisions and we are debating just that, if you can't freely debate that because you can't talk about the project or second guess the design decisions in public, better not try to discuss it. If you guys are planning to add future console support for more sales, it is okay, but there are better ways to do it than just force a controller centric interface. If you guys release a forced controller focused UI from day one, I will be very disappointed. You can try to rationalize that but we will feel used and with reason.

Feeling used is the absolute number one reason why people here are so cynical towards kickstarter projects. Just keep attention to the words you used, "We can't please everyone.", we know what it means when a developer use those words. Not saying you people are evil scammers, I dunno how the project is evolving but when we hear controller support on the same sentence of "We can't please everybody.", the red alarm lights go crazy:

"Developer PR speak, detected!"

You guise were doing well, really good high concept, great ideas, pretty good writing, cool setting , all of that, please consider that. I don't want to play a XCOM clone but something that picks the torch of X-COM.

 

[Shog-goth]

Julian is certainly aware that he has two sets of fans to please. X-Com fans, and XCOM fans. I know a lot of you would sooner it just be one or the other. My fear in that case, would be XCOM - there's a much larger player-base there.

There is a much larger potential player-base there that, as far as we know, for the most part (if not all) couldn't care less about PP and almost certainly don't even know about his existence or who Julian is; so It's not wise try to meet the expectations of an hypothetic audience when you can count on a, probably smaller but loyal and supportive, fan base. You can't compete with AAA big boys, you have to walk the Indie way so you need a solid foundation to reach your goal and we're your armed concrete. Please try to remember that before It's too late.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Julian is certainly aware that he has two sets of fans to please. X-Com fans, and XCOM fans. I know a lot of you would sooner it just be one or the other. My fear in that case, would be XCOM - there's a much larger player-base there.

There is a much larger potential player-base there that, as far as we know, for the most part (if not all) couldn't care less about PP and almost certainly don't even know about his existence or who Julian is; so It's not wise try to meet the expectations of an hypothetic audience when you can count on a, probably smaller but loyal and supportive, fan base. You can't compete with AAA big boys, you have to walk the Indie way so you need a solid foundation to reach your goal and we're your armed concrete. Please try to remember that before It's too late.

They're both potential, neither is a guarantee.

They aren't competing with AAA titles, nobody even makes AAA titles in this genre for them to compete with. I mean, God, I hope XCOM 2 didn't cost what AAA titles do, because it sure doesn't look like it.

 

[Shog-goth]

They're both potential, neither is a guarantee.

We're a reality, not a potential. We already bought 20K copies of PP, many pledging much more than street price just to help development, and many others are interested and ready to come aboard if the game evolves as It should.

They aren't competing with AAA titles, nobody even makes AAA titles in this genre for them to compete with.

Yes, they are (or, at least, trying to):

what we're attempting with PP is to have something closer to AAA polish.

I mean, God, I hope XCOM 2 didn't cost what AAA titles do, because it sure doesn't look like it.

XCOM2 is built on the foundations of the first, that was a very big budgeted game:

It also sounds, according to the IGN interview, like XCOM is being developed by a relatively small team and may not be the kind of big-budget, resource-intensive effort that Enemy Unknown was at the start. The team wants to focus on PC, they think in terms of PC, so they’re making a PC game. And then, of course, we get all that modding support.

He added: "2K went all in with us. They definitely gave us everything we asked for. This is our attempt to make a very, very big budget game that spans all the platforms."

 

[luinthoron]

After thinking about this a bit, I'm starting to find it increasingly hilarious that the item wheel that sparked this wave of outrage isn't even the radial menu it's accused of being. It's simply a way of presenting the item choices in an easily understandable way. The same system could have simply presented them as boxes, either in a similar 2+1 formation or in a row or column, moving the active item to the big box / topmost box or simply highlighting it, or only showing the alternate choices as icons, and no one would have said a word, yet the wheel actually works and looks the best between these choices.

 

[flyingjohn]

So here is a question?
If pp sells around 250k copies during the first three months,would that be considered a success or a failure?

 

[PanteraNera]

Anyway PanteraNera and Shog-goth are being kind of dickish itt imo

Yep I can openly admit that I behaved dickish, imho with reason. I hate PR-talk, I hate if I get poor excuses and I hate selective answers.

Talk like a mature responsible being to me and we will have a good conversation.
Do the opposite and I will voice my opinion of you in a colorful way, after all we are on the codex.

Also take my ranting whit a grain of salt. Keep also in mind that english is not my native language.

But yeah I am tired of this age of gaming. My top 3 are UFO:EU, Fallout 1 and Jagged Alliance 2. Anything that might get close to these get my full support, but just look at the decline: Fallout 3&4, NuXCOM 1&2, Jagged Alliance Back in Action, Flashback and all that miserable clones.

Just my friendly advice, if I was a PR-person I would make as much statements as possible, to clear things up. Sure you will lose customers, but will also win new ones and gain respect. If you are respected chances are way higher that people take you seriously and talk to you like a grown up. But that is a rare thing developers do.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

They're both potential, neither is a guarantee.

We're a reality, not a potential. We already bought 20K copies of PP, many pledging much more than street price just to help development, and many others are interested and ready to come aboard if the game evolves as It should.

Yes, and I'm sure none of those people also liked or have maybe only ever played XCOM. Given that I've seen people online say they want something else like XCOM, I'd say they're a reality too.

They aren't competing with AAA titles, nobody even makes AAA titles in this genre for them to compete with.

Yes, they are (or, at least, trying to):

what we're attempting with PP is to have something closer to AAA polish.

Yeah, saying you want to have something closer to AAA polish when it comes to graphics in a comparison to how Xenonauts looks probably doesn't mean what you think it means. I mean Guilty Gear Xrd is a game from a small developer that you could also say has the polish of something from a bigger budget production.

I mean, God, I hope XCOM 2 didn't cost what AAA titles do, because it sure doesn't look like it.

XCOM2 is built on the foundations of the first, that was a very big budgeted game:

It also sounds, according to the IGN interview, like XCOM is being developed by a relatively small team and may not be the kind of big-budget, resource-intensive effort that Enemy Unknown was at the start. The team wants to focus on PC, they think in terms of PC, so they’re making a PC game. And then, of course, we get all that modding support.

He added: "2K went all in with us. They definitely gave us everything we asked for. This is our attempt to make a very, very big budget game that spans all the platforms."

The second quote is interesting because the article you pulled it from also says the development team (for XCOM) is 50, maybe 60 (Solomon didn't know exactly) people. That isn't the size of some huge AAA production. Those answers are also following Jake Solomon being asked if XCOM is a downloadable game on consoles...if it's an Xbox Live game. The answers are him reassuring that it's actually a full retail game and not some kind of budget title. He also says things like "It's a big, big game" and "It's definitely as big as any game we've ever made at Firaxis". I don't know, are Firaxis's other games big budget titles, would you say any of their other games have AAA budgets? Because he doesn't say it's the biggest game they've ever done, or that it's a bigger game than Firaxis's usually stuff, he just reassures them that it's as big as anything they've done up to that point. Those two articles together say two thing:

1. XCOM didn't have a large team, and probably wasn't a "very very big budget game" despite Solomon saying that.
2. XCOM 2 maybe had a smaller team and might have cost less.

I always got the feeling looking at XCOM that it was an Xbox Live kind of deal that was going to come out around the time of the bigger FPS that was shown off before. But 2K saw the little online shitstorm the FPS generated, held that back to rework it, but also figured they could release the the smaller game as a full retail game since so many people were seemingly demanding a new turn-based tactical game. I mean maybe the plain was for it to always be a full retail game, but the game doesn't look like it, and it wasn't exactly bristling with content.

 

[PanteraNera]

After thinking about this a bit, I'm starting to find it increasingly hilarious that the item wheel that sparked this wave of outrage isn't even the radial menu it's accused of being.

That wasn't the start.

You can actually directly select the item by clicking on it - but the game is also built with controller support, hence why there's an option to cycle.

How important is it to have controller support on PC? 1.9

The bottom end of the table reveals that you clearly want the focus to be on a PC based, single player experience. It would definitely be wise of us to place our limited resources in this direction.

Yeah right good to see what you talk, an what you do.

*sigh*

The innocent "enabling controller support" means butchering every UI and design element. You start designing inventories and management systems around controller limitations instead of making them effective for the superior keyboard and mouse combo.

This was the start.

 

[luinthoron]

After thinking about this a bit, I'm starting to find it increasingly hilarious that the item wheel that sparked this wave of outrage isn't even the radial menu it's accused of being.

That wasn't the start.

You can actually directly select the item by clicking on it - but the game is also built with controller support, hence why there's an option to cycle.

How important is it to have controller support on PC? 1.9

The bottom end of the table reveals that you clearly want the focus to be on a PC based, single player experience. It would definitely be wise of us to place our limited resources in this direction.

Yeah right good to see what you talk, an what you do.

*sigh*

The innocent "enabling controller support" means butchering every UI and design element. You start designing inventories and management systems around controller limitations instead of making them effective for the superior keyboard and mouse combo.

This was the start.

And that is specifically talking about the wheel. And even without a controller, the ability to cycle through the choices on the wheel is also good for quickly doing so with the press of a key on the keyboard instead of having to go there with the mouse.