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KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

UnstableVoltage

Snapshot Games
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Jun 17, 2017
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156
Hey UnstableVoltage

Can you speak as to why a classless system isn't under consideration for PP? I understand the comfort afforded to players by picking a class, but why not let players have access to pre-bundled packages of skills that define a 'class', while letting us (the player) have the option to assemble our own collection of skills and skill-focuses which we can then save as custom classes. Much like the saved gear loadouts of Xenonauts, but applied to skills. Such a solution would both keep the casual "let me pick from A-B-C-D" crowd happy, while enabling more play options/combinations that arise from a classless system.

It's understood not everything regarding mechanics in PP is set in stone, but please let us know your thinking. I think that a classless system would be a huge boon to PP in a certain crowd, and do no harm to it among others (provided the basic 'classic' classes skill packages were available to pick at the start).

OK, I'm not 100% certain on this one, and it's currently 3am in Sophia, so I can't ask Julian. I'm piecing together here little bits and pieces to give you the reasons why I think the decision is being made to go with classes. I believe it's designed to give the game more of an RPG type element. A way to level up soldiers beyond more than just flat stats. It's weirdly interesting, that in the survey results, a class system was quite low on the list, yet having extensive skill trees for classes was quite high. People like levelling up. They like choosing new abilities - and when you have to choose what abilities to take, it adds another layer of strategy to the game. Instead of having a massive squad of generic grunts who are only differentiated by the gear they carry, you can have specialists with a variety of different skill sets for different situations and different styles of play. At the same time, as I said above, the intention is not to make it too restrictive, to they point where you have a reliance on a particular class to beat the "meta".
 

UnstableVoltage

Snapshot Games
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Jun 17, 2017
Messages
156
This seems very strange to me. Having a class system isn't something that can be tacked on, its a huge deal that requires a great deal of thought into balancing. If not, you will eventually end up with a handful of samey optimized builds, which is pretty much what happened to X2. Remember vanilla gunslingers and bullet wizards? LW2 is attempting to address this by randomizing both stats and classes, forcing players to try new things and work around suboptimal combinations (which just made players want to de-randomize stats and/or classes).

I wouldn't say that classes are being "tacked on". Don't forget, we're in an extremely early part of the development. Classes have been a consideration from the start. They're not going to be as rigid as nuXCom, but will add some more variety and flavour than just generic soldiers.
 

UnstableVoltage

Snapshot Games
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Messages
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Fair enough. I just want to emphasize that its very easy to fall into design traps that undermine the very variety and flavor you desire, so going for classes is not an obvious, automatic improvement over the OG. UFO's soldiers may have been "classless" but they were far from generic. You had strong soldiers carry heavy weapons, fast soldiers with stun rods, good reaction soldiers for breaching UFOs etc. Vanilla Firaxis has classes and perks but they end up all being mostly identical, which is made obvious with larger squads a la LW2, as they will discover with the "new" fatigue mechanic in WotC.

I don't disagree with you. I myself enjoyed manually assigning roles to troops based on their stats. At the same time though, classes were one of the things that I did find enjoyable in nuXCom. That said, I'm not a designer. Julian has been doing this for 30+ years, and practically invented the genre. While there is going to be a lot of balancing and tweaking, I am certain that he knows where he is heading and has considered many if not all of these concerns. The game will also be going into early access for backers early next year, which still leaves almost an entire year for further development. Any issues can be addressed then.
 

Alienman

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
There is something really charming seeing your men improve dynamically in the older games. Watching Mr. Alienkiller improve his shooting skill from mission to mission. That is something nuXcom system totally miss out on.
 

LESS T_T

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Codex 2014
https://www.pcgamesn.com/phoenix-point/xcom-remake-julian-gollop

How the XCOM remake has influenced original creator Julian Gollop's return to the genre

It’s customary for developers behind reboots to voice their respect for the creators who came before them, loudly and repeatedly. But it’s far rarer to hear the sentiment echoed back.

You can still watch the footage from 2013’s GDC and see, in real-time, the moment when X-Com creator Julian Gollop tells Firaxis’ Jake Solomon that he’s done a tremendous job with the remake of his original game. “Oh my god,” Solomon intones, eyes locked forward to camera, as though meeting Gollop’s gaze will somehow break the spell. “I’m going to quit. I’m going to hang up my shoes.”

Perhaps the greatest tribute Gollop could pay Solomon and the 2012 XCOM team is yet to come, however, in the form of Phoenix Point. It’s one thing to be nice to your peers on camera – quite another to lift their interface and cinematic camera for your new game.

“I cannot deny that we are influenced by the enormous success of Firaxis’ fantastic reimagining of X-Com,” Gollop says. “The new XCOM has tremendous presentation, really nice character customisation, a wonderful action cam. We are obviously going to incorporate those modern innovations into our game, and we’re going to have destructible terrain, like in XCOM 2.”

It’s taken Gollop two decades to find the funding and support to tackle the X-Com formula again – through a combination of Fig backing and profits from his most recent game, Chaos Reborn. And now that it’s happening, he recognises that Firaxis have set a new standard for the genre.

“You have to remember that the original X-Com was released in 1994, aeons ago,” Gollop says. “Obviously a lot has progressed, not just in terms of graphics, but in usability and how games teach players.”

The original X-Com, he points out, came with a chunky manual, and an equally heavy text description of how to play the game. Phoenix Point, by contrast, will be born into a world where Firaxis have figured out ways to make turn-based tactics more presentable and accessible.

“But actually,” Gollop adds, “the underlying mechanics are still drawing from the original 1994 game.”

Sometimes these mechanics are pretty much invisible. Take movement as an example. In X-Com you spent time units: two for moving straight, four for kneeling down, or five to take a snapshot (the attack from which Gollop’s new studio, Snapshot Games, takes its name). Taking a turn was an act of addition.

phoenix%20point%20movement.png


Modern XCOM did away with all that, in favour of a simplified move-and-shoot system. For better or worse, it made standing in front of an armed alien like a lemon with a poor grasp of maths a far rarer occurrence.

Phoenix Point’s system looks very much like the latter, but Gollop describes it as a “hybrid” – not exposing action points to the player, but doing the maths on the quiet. Pick up a sniper rifle, for example, and you won’t be able to move as far as a soldier with a handgun – since the game factors in the extra time spent aiming the weapon.

“One significant difference is that we will use a more realistic ballistic system for our projectiles and bullets, which is more similar to the 1994 X-Com,” Gollop notes.

What he’s getting at is one of the more particular quirks of ‘90s turn-based tactics: aimed shots. Emblematic of a genre in thrall to simulation, the memory of limb-targeted attacks looms large, literally, in Phoenix Point.

phoenix%20point%20aimed%20shot.png


“Some monsters are as big as a house,” Gollop explains. “You’ve got to know which bit you want to target. Because our aliens are mutants that have constantly evolving systems, each time you encounter a new mutation you have to think a little bit about how you’re going to tackle it.”

Monster abilities are often locked to targetable body parts: a clawed arm, or an abdomen that spews larvae to “scamper around” the map. You can shoot to disable a specific limb, or perhaps target the head to cause massive bleeding and help cut down a huge hit point total.

“They start developing plenty of tentacles – it can’t be Lovecraft without tentacles,” Gollop says. “There’s a very strong Lovecraft influence, and a sense of this unknown horror.”

That sense of the unknown is key to Gollop’s games: whether in the poker-like bluff of Chaos Reborn’s illusions, or the dread of an unseen enemy in X-Com. For Phoenix Point, it’s manifested in a creeping mist gradually encroaching Planet Earth, bringing barnacled beasts and a mutating virus with it.

phoenix%20point%20strategy%20layer.png


Phoenix Point’s greatest unknown, however, is its strategic layer – a deep and involved aspect of the game that Gollop compares to 4X, after playing with similar ideas in Chaos Reborn’s campaign mode.

“Each faction has its own special technologies, traits, and diplomatic relations with each other,” he says. “They have their own objectives, so they’re trying to expand and develop their own Havens. You, as the player have to deal with them, as you would encounter a civilisation in Civilization.”

Whether that idea translates into satisfying strategy remains to be seen. But it’s clear that Gollop has taken something else from Firaxis’ XCOM: new confidence in his design, and in the knowledge that the world wants another X-Com from its originator.

“Around a million in sales, at least, is what we’re aiming for,” he says. “It’s ambitious, but the quality of the game will be very high.”

Million or bust?
 
Joined
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Or LongWar shit with soldiers going to hospital for a month after every scratch.
you know, a sprained ankle, taken just by slipping, could take a month to heal. worst cases, a month and a half. a cut could be so deep, a hit so hard, a muscle could even never heal it. and actually on average lw soldiers stay in hospital a lot shorter than x-com's.
 

Space Satan

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you know, a sprained ankle, taken just by slipping, could take a month to heal. worst cases, a month and a half. a cut could be so deep, a hit so hard, a muscle could even never heal it. and actually on average lw soldiers stay in hospital a lot shorter than x-com's.
Original X-Com had dozens of interchangeable rookies, without levels. With skill introduction every loss is much much painful. You can lose several teams in original and still carry late-game. Here, loss of equipment and skilled soldiers is fatal. Rookies have no chance against bloats like gatekeeper or sectopods or even codexes.
 
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no doubt, but that's beside the point. "there's nothing inherently wrong in a soldier being hospitalised for a month" and "lw has no cannon fodder" are separate facts.
 

kris

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Or LongWar shit with soldiers going to hospital for a month after every scratch.
you know, a sprained ankle, taken just by slipping, could take a month to heal. worst cases, a month and a half. a cut could be so deep, a hit so hard, a muscle could even never heal it. and actually on average lw soldiers stay in hospital a lot shorter than x-com's.

But that wouldn't put someone out of combat duty. a sprained ancle would with support hardly even inconvenience someone much.

Obviously it would be better to have a "injury system" with different injuries that either gives some sort of malus or keep soldier away for X time.
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
you know, a sprained ankle, taken just by slipping, could take a month to heal. worst cases, a month and a half. a cut could be so deep, a hit so hard, a muscle could even never heal it. and actually on average lw soldiers stay in hospital a lot shorter than x-com's.
Original X-Com had dozens of interchangeable rookies, without levels. With skill introduction every loss is much much painful. You can lose several teams in original and still carry late-game. Here, loss of equipment and skilled soldiers is fatal. Rookies have no chance against bloats like gatekeeper or sectopods or even codexes.
Vanilla XCOM 2 made it easy to manage casualties. You could recruit experienced soldiers (up to colonels) for a paltry amount late game and set their skills however you saw fit.
I lost my 80% of my A squad and B squad mid game and was still able to complete the game in Legend by spending intel and resources on making colonels join the roster (through the black market and at the HQ).
Maybe they patched that out, but when I played, you could reasonably recover from casualties. I think I had an amount of KIA much larger than the average, so most of it is probably just people giving up instead of trying how they can recover from a setback.
 

Achilles

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“The new XCOM has tremendous presentation, really nice character customisation, a wonderful action cam.

...that everyone except the simpletons turn off immediately.

“You have to remember that the original X-Com was released in 1994, aeons ago,” Gollop says. “Obviously a lot has progressed, not just in terms of graphics, but in usability and how games teach players.”

Has it? Becau.se the 1994 X-Com game still kicks Xcom's ass where it matters: Gameplay. Games are prettier and use tutorials to guide new players but they have lost a huge amount of depth in the process. I like XCOM but there's no reason to deify it just because it was commercially successful.
 

SmartCheetah

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May 7, 2013
Messages
1,078
I assure you I'd fucking run like a cheetah even with sprained ankle when being shot by aliens. It's not a fucking football where every injury matters. It's supposed to be a war. You shouldn't be off for fucking 3 weeks because of grazes, ya?
 
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i was known to shrug off even the worst injuries (once i didn't know my leg was this close to need to be amputated and i was literally "'tis but a scratch"). with a sprained ankle i haven't been able to put my foot on the ground for three weeks.
adrenaline can cover the pain if it's already in circle, once it's off the pain is your whole world.
 

Jimmious

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
That's actually true, once the ankle "cools off" the pain is excruciating and you definitely can't step on it anymore - willingly at least
 

Mustawd

Guest
Exactly. And a soldier who can't even properly carry his/her own weight, let alone do sprinting, climbing over stuff, carry supplies, etc., is a liability to the squad.
 

UnstableVoltage

Snapshot Games
Developer
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Jun 17, 2017
Messages
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Nothing really new to report at the moment. We're in a phase of hiring staff and getting the backer management system sorted so people can manage their pledges. Forums are underway too. Development is currently ongoing, but probably isn't going to be anything new to show for a month or two. A fan has started a Google form on the subreddit, where you can submit questions to the developers though.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Sometimes these mechanics are pretty much invisible. Take movement as an example. In X-Com you spent time units: two for moving straight, four for kneeling down, or five to take a snapshot (the attack from which Gollop’s new studio, Snapshot Games, takes its name). Taking a turn was an act of addition.

phoenix%20point%20movement.png


Modern XCOM did away with all that, in favour of a simplified move-and-shoot system. For better or worse, it made standing in front of an armed alien like a lemon with a poor grasp of maths a far rarer occurrence.

I'm sorry but this is a bullshit argument. A properly designed UI can make it very clear to the player how much each action costs. A good UI can easily track TUs (i.e. for example using bars as a visual cue). I don't understand why people like Gollop keep parroting what Firaxis first said when they tried using TUs in an early build of nuXCOM. It's bullshit and makes zero sense.

UnstableVoltage , do you share this opinion? That APs > TUs?
 

UnstableVoltage

Snapshot Games
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Messages
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I'm sorry but this is a bullshit argument. A properly designed UI can make it very clear to the player how much each action costs. A good UI can easily track TUs (i.e. for example using bars as a visual cue). I don't understand why people like Gollop keep parroting what Firaxis first said when they tried using TUs in an early build of nuXCOM. It's bullshit and makes zero sense.

UnstableVoltage , do you share this opinion? That APs > TUs?

My personal opinion - I'm a big fan of TUs, and I would love to see them make a return. Just as much I as loved having to rotate soldiers at 45-degree increments to check corners, to kneel, and move inventory around. Still, a lot of people do like the 2AP system, even if it is more simplified. I think what Julian is trying to do here, is have a system that feels and plays simplistically like the 2AP system, but to have more freedom, like with TUs.
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Sometimes these mechanics are pretty much invisible. Take movement as an example. In X-Com you spent time units: two for moving straight, four for kneeling down, or five to take a snapshot (the attack from which Gollop’s new studio, Snapshot Games, takes its name). Taking a turn was an act of addition.

phoenix%20point%20movement.png


Modern XCOM did away with all that, in favour of a simplified move-and-shoot system. For better or worse, it made standing in front of an armed alien like a lemon with a poor grasp of maths a far rarer occurrence.

I'm sorry but this is a bullshit argument. A properly designed UI can make it very clear to the player how much each action costs. A good UI can easily track TUs (i.e. for example using bars as a visual cue). I don't understand why people like Gollop keep parroting what Firaxis first said when they tried using TUs in an early build of nuXCOM. It's bullshit and makes zero sense.

UnstableVoltage , do you share this opinion? That APs > TUs?
Actually, if you prefer to have soldiers fire only once per turn (which is perferctly reasonable, as it more or less ensure the game state does not change too dramatically before you can play again. For exemple, it could be a big problem to go 2nd in a tabletop game of Warhammer 40K against a shooty army, as you could well have very little remaining dudes to play with on your own turn), and force the turn to end after an attack (because you happen to avoid excessive kiting), then you can abstract TUs pretty easily:
The more you have moved, the worse your aim, as the game assumes that the MP you did not spend moving were used to aim.
I suppose it is what Julian Gollop means when he speaks about hidden TU.
 

UnstableVoltage

Snapshot Games
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Jun 17, 2017
Messages
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That's nice but my question above was about the strat layer

Sorry. At the moment I know about as much about the strat layer as you do. I haven't seen it yet. Very little information has been released outside of the developer's office.
 

Lone Wolf

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I assure you I'd fucking run like a cheetah even with sprained ankle when being shot by aliens. It's not a fucking football where every injury matters. It's supposed to be a war. You shouldn't be off for fucking 3 weeks because of grazes, ya?

I take your point, but you sound like someone who's never experienced a severe ankle sprain.

Football is a harsh mistress.
 

luinthoron

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Update 22:
Backer Management System

Over the last couple of weeks, Snapshot Games has been working to migrate all of our backers over to a new backer management system. We are delighted to announce that we are working with CrowdOx and will be ready to go live soon. The backer management system will allow you to update your shipping address for physical goods, upgrade your pledge and select from a number of additional extra rewards both physical and digital.

This new system will allow us to survey you in the future to collect information for details such as soldier roster names, backer credit names and t-shirt sizes. CrowdOx will also provide us with a more streamlined delivery method for your digital rewards.



Chaos Reborn Keys
https%3A%2F%2Fi.gyazo.com%2F115c1af47d29e1bf8e19516d94b2b4d7.jpg


We understand that some backers may have not yet received their Chaos Reborn keys, or the surveys collecting platform information. If this is the case and you still haven't received your key, we kindly ask you to sit tight. We will no longer be manually sending out keys in waves, we will instead be delivering them to you via our backer management system. Keep an eye on your inbox for an email from CrowdOx within the next week or two for details on how to claim your keys.



Snapshot Games Forums
Our web developer and artists have been working to bring you a brand new Snapshot Games Forum. Here you will be able to discuss Phoenix Point, Chaos Reborn and many other gaming related topics. We will be providing you with a place for suggestions and feedback, along with an area for requesting support and advice. We hope to have the forums live within the next two weeks, so please bear with us.



Once again, we would like to thank all of our backers for their continued patience.
 

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