KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

[Trans-Financial-Man]

and all the other shit to do with striping out the features we were excited for.

Which features were these?

I realise you've got a job to do but you can't actually be this dense.

I was going to go on a big rant but no. I don't have the energy. I'd point out what's been lost but you know what has and you're just sea lioning to try to catch out "those miserable RPG codex bastards" Other people can moan at you. But I'm done.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

I was actually interested to see which features you think have been removed. I can agree that there was been a change in art style. I can also agree that some of the game mechanics have changed (for example switching from a hybrid movement system to a more traditional full TU system (which most people here were in favour of)). I would personally call that one a change or addition, but not a removal.

Still, I was honestly looking for feedback, but you can't provide any, so fair enough.

I still read these forums, and I still run all feedback up the flagpole.

 

[Shog-goth]

I was actually interested to see which features you think have been removed.

You are definitely right: it's impossible for anyone to know which ones are out, because nobody knows yet which ones are in. And the game should be ready in eight months.

 

[J_C]

and all the other shit to do with striping out the features we were excited for.

Which features were these?

I realise you've got a job to do but you can't actually be this dense.

I was going to go on a big rant but no. I don't have the energy. I'd point out what's been lost but you know what has and you're just sea lioning to try to catch out "those miserable RPG codex bastards" Other people can moan at you. But I'm done.

No no no, don't backpedal now, if you had the time to bash the developers and the game so adamantly, please share with us (and the devs) which mechanics were removed. So they can react to those claims and maybe explain them.
Or are you just shitposting and have no idea what are you talking about?

 

[Jimmious]

I also don't know anything about "removed features". The complains in here are mainly about slow development and change of aesthetics, if I'm not mistaken

 

[Grotesque]

^ look at all the hobos pounding on the poor guy

If you view this title through the lens of past x-com titles, this whole game is a conglomeration of missing features from past tiles that should've been built and improved upon.
Also for a game, the art style IS a fuckin feature.
In a world where the market is oversaturated with titles, art style is becoming more and more important to differentiate your game. Almost as important as game mechanics.

When I requested for my refund, the reason was mainly because art style.
When I saw riders with horned helmets on zombie dogs wielding lances like in some cheap ass fantasy knockoff, I facepalmed.
The only thing that postponed the refund request was my anticipation for the news about base management - R&D but after seeing that shit, it was game over.

 

[ArchAngel]

I was actually interested to see which features you think have been removed. I can agree that there was been a change in art style. I can also agree that some of the game mechanics have changed (for example switching from a hybrid movement system to a more traditional full TU system (which most people here were in favour of)). I would personally call that one a change or addition, but not a removal.

Still, I was honestly looking for feedback, but you can't provide any, so fair enough.

I still read these forums, and I still run all feedback up the flagpole.

It is hard to give any feedback when we have not seen anything noteworthy about the current state of the game in months. When is the next beta coming again? :D

 

[UnstableVoltage]

It is hard to give any feedback when we have not seen anything noteworthy about the current state of the game in months. When is the next beta coming again?

The next Backer Build is due in November. That hasn't changed since Julian made the announcement back in August.

I'm not expecting people to give feedback on what hasn't been shown. I was specifically referring to the allegation of "all the other shit to do with striping out the features we were excited for". I've been through the Fig campaign again (which admittedly was written before my time with Snapshot) and through any subsequent material I could find where we talked about game features. I haven't been able to find any features which we announced that have now been "stripped out" or even removed. Of course, if I am wrong, please point me to these features as I'd like to look into them and try and get an explanation. Gameplay features and mechanics from OG X-Com don't count - as you can't strip out features that were never mentioned, that certain people just imagined would be present.

Grotesque doesn't like the art style. I get that, I completely do. I'm glad he got his refund. Hopefully, that is one problem solved.

We listen to a lot of feedback from multiple sources. I can appreciate that a lot (but not all) of you guys on the Codex liked it a certain way - but yours is not the only feedback that we have. I will still continue to represent feedback from the Codex, but it has to be realistic. Complaining that "shit has been stripped out" and then shying away because I asked for examples isn't going to fly.

I can hardly go to Julian and say "people are complaining about stuff being stripped out of the game".
Julian: "Which stuff?"
Me: "I don't know."

I can't promise feedback will be acted on. But I can promise that I will make sure feedback is heard - but you need to try and meet me halfway if you expect for it to be taken seriously.

 

[Mazisky]

It is hard to give any feedback when we have not seen anything noteworthy about the current state of the game in months. When is the next beta coming again?

The next Backer Build is due in November. That hasn't changed since Julian made the announcement back in August.

I'm not expecting people to give feedback on what hasn't been shown. I was specifically referring to the allegation of "all the other shit to do with striping out the features we were excited for". I've been through the Fig campaign again (which admittedly was written before my time with Snapshot) and through any subsequent material I could find where we talked about game features. I haven't been able to find any features which we announced that have now been "stripped out" or even removed. Of course, if I am wrong, please point me to these features as I'd like to look into them and try and get an explanation. Gameplay features and mechanics from OG X-Com don't count - as you can't strip out features that were never mentioned, that certain people just imagined would be present.

Grotesque doesn't like the art style. I get that, I completely do. I'm glad he got his refund. Hopefully, that is one problem solved.

We listen to a lot of feedback from multiple sources. I can appreciate that a lot (but not all) of you guys on the Codex liked it a certain way - but yours is not the only feedback that we have. I will still continue to represent feedback from the Codex, but it has to be realistic. Complaining that "shit has been stripped out" and then shying away because I asked for examples isn't going to fly.

I can hardly go to Julian and say "people are complaining about stuff being stripped out of the game".
Julian: "Which stuff?"
Me: "I don't know."

I can't promise feedback will be acted on. But I can promise that I will make sure feedback is heard - but you need to try and meet me halfway if you expect for it to be taken seriously.

Just remember that some individuals (ex. Grotesque) are known for shitposting on every game since years, so their opinion, feedback or whatever can just be ignored like you would do with toddlers or dogs.

About the art style, i am a bit worried of repetitive environments, if u can afford to make some "non industrial\wasteland" scenario would make a nice contrast and thus enhance visual variety over a long campaign.

 

[Grotesque]

Just remember that some individuals (ex. Grotesque) are known for shitposting on every game since years, so their opinion, feedback or whatever can just be ignored like you would do with toddlers or dogs.

It's called having high standards.
In the meantime, is your right to inhabit this planet being butthurt and having none of that.

 

[Grotesque]

I'm glad he got his refund. Hopefully, that is one problem solved.

Hopefully, now that you thoughtfully mentioned me, maybe you will feel obliged to also finally answer my question regarding the geoscape images/animation during the Fig campaign

a polished concept render

What is a concept render and how was it made?

 

[UnstableVoltage]

Hopefully, now that you thoughtfully mentioned me, maybe you will feel obliged to also finally answer my question regarding the geoscape images/animation during the Fig campaign

I can't give you any technical details on how it was put together - I wasn't with Snapshot at the time. No one is online atm that could give me any details. As for what it is, think of it as concept art, only animated and not a still image. It was a concept animation of what the Geoscape could look like, and how the UI could look - but at the time there was no working Geoscape gameplay model.

 

[Shog-goth]

I can hardly go to Julian and say "people are complaining about stuff being stripped out of the game".
Julian: "Which stuff?"
Me: "I don't know."

Please, don't generalize. It's just one post in hundreds, so don't try to represent the Codex just as a den of hysterical, irrationals and irrealistics whiners. This is its strongest point, but there is much more.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

Please, don't generalize. It's just one post in hundreds, so don't try to represent the Codex just as a den of hysterical, irrationals and irrealistics whiners. This is its strongest point, but there is much more.

I didn't. I was trying to illustrate that I can't really report feedback if it isn't backed up with any kind of facts. I don't need to represent the Codex as anything, a lot of you do a great job on your own.

As a matter of fact, I don't even state where the feedback comes from. I just report it as being from backers/customers/the community to prevent any potential biases.

 

[Shog-goth]

I don't need to represent the Codex as anything, a lot of you do a great job on your own

Mine was a joke. Failed, apparently.

Also:

 

[Trans-Financial-Man]

Okay, I'll backpedalled a little bit. Yes we don't know precise features. So it's impossible for me to properly list what has and hasn't been removed. Which brings me to another point. The game, whatever it may be is not the game that was presented through the original crowdfunding campaign. Ignoring the art style you must admit that a majority of backers backed this game thinking it was to be the next great successor to X-Com. It's not. We all understand that now. Even if we believe it was never your intent to make that game why was that never communicated? Why did you never say from the beginning "well actually guys we know you wanted a new X-Com but we're going for a wider audience so we're taking more from Xcom instead. This isn't the game you think it is." The cynical answer for that is because you knew saying that would affect the health of the crowdfunding campaign. But I'd like to think you weren't knowingly obfuscating the nature of your game with the very first line of your campaign being "the new strategy game from the creator of the original X-COM series." and following that up with pictures of known X-com features. As if showing us "Hey, we're doing that thing you remember and here's the guy that made it before and we're doing the features you liked before. Only better." Only to then say, "It's not that much like the original X-com"

 

[UnstableVoltage]

Yes we don't know precise features. So it's impossible for me to properly list what has and hasn't been removed.

So it was just a shitpost then. Check.

The game we are creating is much closer to the original X-Com in features than to the new XCOM games. We have large squads, multiple bases, full time units, inventory, destructible terrain, proper working ballistics system (not board game-like dice rolls). WYSIWYG cover. Which part of it is more like XCOM and less like X-Com? Once again you seem to be making accusations with either no research or evidence to back them up.

 

[Trans-Financial-Man]

Yes we don't know precise features. So it's impossible for me to properly list what has and hasn't been removed.

So it was just a shitpost then. Check.

The game we are creating is much closer to the original X-Com in features than to the new XCOM games. We have large squads, multiple bases, full time units, inventory, destructible terrain, proper working ballistics system (not board game-like dice rolls). WYSIWYG cover. Which part of it is more like XCOM and less like X-Com? Once again you seem to be making accusations with either no research or evidence to back them up.

You avoided my main point. Your communication of what is or isn't in the game is piss poor. It's great you're actually able to list some features that are in the game but you have a shocking capability to completely 180 on things. From Gollop himself.

"The bottom end of the table reveals that you clearly want the focus to be on a PC based, single player experience. It would definitely be wise of us to place our limited resources in this direction."

Suddenly becomes in your words.

"It's much easier to add controller support at this stage than trying to get it to work later. Whether we like it or not, a lot of people do play with a controller these days. With Steam boxes and so many more PCs occupying a space in people's living rooms, connected to TVs, we'd be insane not to provide a control method for those users. We also have to consider users with reduced motor functions, who often find a controller easier to use than M/K"

So you admit your making this for a wider range of people. Again, that would of been fine if you said that from the beginning. You can't keep insisting that you have the features X-Com has while simultainously admiting you're going for a streamlined interface for controllers. An interface that by design means features will have to be sacrificed so that you can play the game effectively with a controller.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

Yes we don't know precise features. So it's impossible for me to properly list what has and hasn't been removed.

So it was just a shitpost then. Check.

The game we are creating is much closer to the original X-Com in features than to the new XCOM games. We have large squads, multiple bases, full time units, inventory, destructible terrain, proper working ballistics system (not board game-like dice rolls). WYSIWYG cover. Which part of it is more like XCOM and less like X-Com? Once again you seem to be making accusations with either no research or evidence to back them up.

You avoided my main point. Your communication of what is or isn't in the game is piss poor. It's great you're actually able to list some features that are in the game but you have a shocking capability to completely 180 on things. From Gollop himself.

"The bottom end of the table reveals that you clearly want the focus to be on a PC based, single player experience. It would definitely be wise of us to place our limited resources in this direction."

Suddenly becomes in your words.

"It's much easier to add controller support at this stage than trying to get it to work later. Whether we like it or not, a lot of people do play with a controller these days. With Steam boxes and so many more PCs occupying a space in people's living rooms, connected to TVs, we'd be insane not to provide a control method for those users. We also have to consider users with reduced motor functions, who often find a controller easier to use than M/K"

So you admit your making this for a wider range of people. Again, that would of been fine if you said that from the beginning. You can't keep insisting that you have the features X-Com has while simultainously admiting you're going for a streamlined interface for controllers. An interface that by design means features will have to be sacrificed so that you can play the game effectively with a controller.

Making a UI that works with a controller doesn’t mean any features have to be lost. OG X-Com was playable with a controller. Many people play PC games with controller and on TVs from a distance. It would be very short-sighted to design a UI that was unusable in that situation.

As for communication of features, we have listed them countless times over.

 

[Mustawd]

OG X-Com was playable with a controller.

Lol. Cmon man.

I played OG X-Com for the first time on the PS1. I was like 10, and even then I remember thinking “wow these controls are awful”

The reason is because the UI was based on the PC version which had mouse input. It’s a great example on why the two schemes should be separate.

 

[Shog-goth]

OG X-Com was playable with a controller

True, and many ZX Spectrum games must be played with a rubber chiclet keyboard, but it doesn't mean that it was convenient or preferable. X-Com was born for mouse and keyboard, have you ever really tried to play it with a controller? And for Phoenix Point is the same, the true nature of this kind of games doesn't contemplate a console-centric UI. This is a serious mistake.

 

[Mustawd]

Many people play PC games with controller and on TVs from a distance.

Many PC games are ports from consoles, and in which case you really do need to use a controller.

I can’t imagine playing GTA3 San Andreas on a keyboard. That’s just stupid.


EDIT: Tbf this has all been hashed out before Trans-Financial-Man. Nothing new here in terms of discussion.

 

[Trans-Financial-Man]

Lol. Cmon man.

I played OG X-Com for the first time on the PS1. I was like 10, and even then I remember thinking “wow these controls are awful”

The reason is because the UI was based on the PC version which had mouse input. It’s a great example on why the two schemes should be separate.

True, and many ZX Spectrum games must be played with a rubber chiclet keyboard, but it doesn't mean that it was convenient or preferable. X-Com was born for mouse and keyboard, have you ever really tried to play it with a controller? And for Phoenix Point is the same, the true nature of this kind of games doesn't contemplate a console-centric UI. This is a serious mistake.

This is what I was getting at. There are two ways of interpreting what has been said about controller support. Either the game has been adjusted to work better with a controller. Or it hasn't because it's still a PC centric experience which would make the Xbox port as bum as the PS1 x-com port at least in terms of controls. But we have the quote. They're making the game for a wider audience. So the controller HAS to come first. So what is it?

 

[Shog-goth]

As for communication of features, we have listed them countless times over

Listed, but - for the most part - never seen or confirmed. So, which ones can we expect to see in the next backer build?

 

[ArchAngel]

Lol. Cmon man.

I played OG X-Com for the first time on the PS1. I was like 10, and even then I remember thinking “wow these controls are awful”

The reason is because the UI was based on the PC version which had mouse input. It’s a great example on why the two schemes should be separate.

True, and many ZX Spectrum games must be played with a rubber chiclet keyboard, but it doesn't mean that it was convenient or preferable. X-Com was born for mouse and keyboard, have you ever really tried to play it with a controller? And for Phoenix Point is the same, the true nature of this kind of games doesn't contemplate a console-centric UI. This is a serious mistake.

This is what I was getting at. There are two ways of interpreting what has been said about controller support. Either the game has been adjusted to work better with a controller. Or it hasn't because it's still a PC centric experience which would make the Xbox port as bum as the PS1 x-com port at least in terms of controls. But we have the quote. They're making the game for a wider audience. So the controller HAS to come first. So what is it?

Or they just made a better UI than UFO. That UI was never great, just usable.