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KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

Latelistener

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Oh no. Looking at the second picture. It seems to have nuXcom cover mechanics. Even the crouching behind cover looks the same.
Would like to see a proper X-Com game with modern visuals, physics (destructible environments) and gameplay enhancements, but it seems like I will die waiting for it, since even Gollop himself is trying to copy something that wasn't even copied properly from his own original X-Com.

14 fucking years.


:0-13:
 

thesheeep

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Oh no. Looking at the second picture. It seems to have nuXcom cover mechanics. Even the crouching behind cover looks the same.
Do you mean the half/full cover thing?
To be honest, I was using cover pretty much the same in new and old XCom games. Except the manual stances in the older games, of course.
It just doesn't strike me as such a big deal. Placing yourself behind cover just seems a natural thing to do, and as long as it does what it is supposed to (lower enemy chances to hit me) I think that's sufficient.
What else would you like to see?

Environment/cover was already confirmed to be destructible, iirc. Except for floors, I think.
 

Alienman

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I would like cover being cover, and maybe use side-stepping or some such like in Jagged Alliance 2 or Silent Storm to take a shot. Now it all comes down to % if your guy will survive or not, but my main issue with it is that it feels more like a boardgame than an actual battle.
 

TC Jr

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I'm a retard but is this closer to original xcom or nuxom? I got the vibe that it was more like the original but does it honestly have the two action pont system?

I like both types of xcoms but surely go one way or the other?
 

ArchAngel

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I'm a retard but is this closer to original xcom or nuxom? I got the vibe that it was more like the original but does it honestly have the two action pont system?

I like both types of xcoms but surely go one way or the other?
It is a mix of both games. But to a casual onlooker it will seem to be more like nuXcom.
 

Alienman

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I'm a retard but is this closer to original xcom or nuxom? I got the vibe that it was more like the original but does it honestly have the two action pont system?

I like both types of xcoms but surely go one way or the other?

Looks like combat will be mostly nuXcom with some modifiers. Strategic map will be more like X-com Apocalypse.
 

thesheeep

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Now it all comes down to % if your guy will survive or not
Has that ever not been the case as soon as RNG is involved?
I don't really see a difference between:
- a strict % of chance to hit
- a simulation of the bullet flight path (where the initial vector is influenced by RNG to account for aim skill/weapon spread)

The end result would be 99% identical and the first method is much easier to develop.

Or maybe I just don't get you :lol:
 

ArchAngel

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Now it all comes down to % if your guy will survive or not
Has that ever not been the case as soon as RNG is involved?
I don't really see a difference between:
- a strict % of chance to hit
- a simulation of the bullet flight path (where the initial vector is influenced by RNG to account for aim skill/weapon spread)

The end result would be 99% identical and the first method is much easier to develop.

Or maybe I just don't get you :lol:
Biggest difference is that in 2nd method when you are behind full cover, chance you get hit are very low as only a small body part is uncovered and it all depends on angle of the shot.
Also when you are really close to enemy, almost all shots hit.
Also with 2nd system friendly fire with any shot is a real possibility
 

Alienman

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Now it all comes down to % if your guy will survive or not
Has that ever not been the case as soon as RNG is involved?
I don't really see a difference between:
- a strict % of chance to hit
- a simulation of the bullet flight path (where the initial vector is influenced by RNG to account for aim skill/weapon spread)

The end result would be 99% identical and the first method is much easier to develop.

Or maybe I just don't get you :lol:

If your guy is standing in the open maybe, then it is similar. But I'm talking about solid walls here, no supposed simulation of my dudes poking their head out and such while standing next to an opening. If I stand next to a door, he will be 100% protected and the only way for him to shoot or get shot is if I actually move that guy out of cover to take a pop.
 

thesheeep

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I don't really see a difference between:
- a strict % of chance to hit
- a simulation of the bullet flight path (where the initial vector is influenced by RNG to account for aim skill/weapon spread)
Biggest difference is that in 2nd method when you are behind full cover, chance you get hit are very low as only a small body part is uncovered and it all depends on angle of the shot.
Also when you are really close to enemy, almost all shots hit.
Also with 2nd system friendly fire with any shot is a real possibility
All of these can be done just as well with a purely %-based system, by just adding a few steps.
For example, friendly fire could be done by taking a very rough flight path, looking at other NPCs in that path and handling all of them with a % in order of proximity.

If I stand next to a door, he will be 100% protected and the only way for him to shoot or get shot is if I actually move that guy out of cover to take a pop.
Again, I don't see how that cannot be done with a simple %. If you stand next to a door blocking your view on the guy, your chance to hit is 0%. Moving out of that spot increases chance again.

Granted, you have to put some thinking into how you do your % calculations, but a full-on simulation comes with its own traps, especially with taking into account every polygon of 3D environment. Doable for a single bullet, yeah. But once you add things like miniguns, flamethrower, etc. the calculations can get out of hand easily.
Note that you not only have to calculate these things when the shot happens, but as quick as the user hovering a mouse over a target to display some chance-to-hit.

Don't get me wrong, from a pure dev and tech perspective, I'd love a full simulation.
But as a dev myself, I understand very well why this isn't done anymore since 3D environment became more... detailed.
 
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ArchAngel

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I don't really see a difference between:
- a strict % of chance to hit
- a simulation of the bullet flight path (where the initial vector is influenced by RNG to account for aim skill/weapon spread)
Biggest difference is that in 2nd method when you are behind full cover, chance you get hit are very low as only a small body part is uncovered and it all depends on angle of the shot.
Also when you are really close to enemy, almost all shots hit.
Also with 2nd system friendly fire with any shot is a real possibility
All of these can be done just as well with a purely %-based system, by just adding a few steps.
For example, friendly fire could be done by taking a very rough flight path, looking at other NPCs in that path and handling all of them with a % in order of proximity.

If I stand next to a door, he will be 100% protected and the only way for him to shoot or get shot is if I actually move that guy out of cover to take a pop.
Again, I don't see how that cannot be done with a simple %. If you stand next to a door blocking your view on the guy, your chance to hit is 0%. Moving out of that spot increases chance again.

Granted, you have to put some thinking into how you do your % calculations, but a full-on simulation comes with its own traps, especially with taking into account every polygon of 3D environment. Doable for a single bullet, yeah. But once you add things like miniguns, flamethrower, etc. the calculations can get out of hand easily.
Note that you not only have to calculate these things when the shot happens, but as quick as the user hovering a mouse over a target to display some chance-to-hit.

Don't get me wrong, from a pure dev and tech perspective, I'd love a full simulation.
But as a dev myself, I understand very well why this isn't done anymore since 3D environment became more... detailed.
It is not the same to just put %. In old UFO you could hit allies that were not just in your path but few squares to the side if your original shot went flying wildly. Shots could miss alien target, go into darkness and you could hear a death scream there. You are not going to be putting all that into % rolls, too many cases.

And full cover giving super low hit chance due to shot not being able to physically reach the target cannot be done without TU system. It is the biggest enemy of ballistic system.
 

Alienman

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But Silent Storm had it.

I'm not 100% sure what we are talking about though. The only thing I commented on that it looks like nuXcom mechanics and that the game will play out more like a boardgame (at least to me), than say the original which felt more... war/simulation? I don't know. I mean the old game was very simple but it didn't have fake cover that only gave your enemy a penalty to hit... stuff actually protected you. I think that JA2 had some kind of penalty system if you hid behind a rock or some such, but when you were behind a wall you were completely out of sight for the enemy and did he want to hurt you he had to make his way up there or shoot through the wall.
 

thesheeep

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It is not the same to just put %. In old UFO you could hit allies that were not just in your path but few squares to the side if your original shot went flying wildly. Shots could miss alien target, go into darkness and you could hear a death scream there. You are not going to be putting all that into % rolls, too many cases.

And full cover giving super low hit chance due to shot not being able to physically reach the target cannot be done without TU system. It is the biggest enemy of ballistic system.
You honestly show quite the lack of creativity here.

You can put all of this into % rolls (or cascading ones, if you like). I'm not going to lay it all out for you, but this is definitely possible.

Just as you could implement a move-out-of-cover-shoot-move-back action in a 2 action system that could cost 2 actions (or something similar).
I'm fully with you that a real TU system is vastly superior, as it is in the end just simpler (and you can always replace numbers with geometric shapes :lol:), but there are (non optimal) solutions in 2 action systems as well.
 

ArchAngel

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It is not the same to just put %. In old UFO you could hit allies that were not just in your path but few squares to the side if your original shot went flying wildly. Shots could miss alien target, go into darkness and you could hear a death scream there. You are not going to be putting all that into % rolls, too many cases.

And full cover giving super low hit chance due to shot not being able to physically reach the target cannot be done without TU system. It is the biggest enemy of ballistic system.
You honestly show quite the lack of creativity here.

You can put all of this into % rolls (or cascading ones, if you like). I'm not going to lay it all out for you, but this is definitely possible.

Just as you could implement a move-out-of-cover-shoot-move-back action in a 2 action system that could cost 2 actions (or something similar).
I'm fully with you that a real TU system is vastly superior, as it is in the end just simpler (and you can always replace numbers with geometric shapes :lol:), but there are (non optimal) solutions in 2 action systems as well.
And all of that will make the game feel even more artificial. With ballistic system you implement that and let players have the emergent gameplay based on that. If you try to implement all that with tables and % they only get exactly what you implement or come up with. It is a worse version.

Actually I am not sure how will PP implement nuXcom cover system + 2 action system + ballistic system like they want to without all that feeling very strange and artificial.
 

thesheeep

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With ballistic system you implement that and let players have the emergent gameplay based on that. If you try to implement all that with tables and % they only get exactly what you implement or come up with. It is a worse version.
Worse? Hmmm... I won't say yes or no. I think there are ups and downs for both.
But how much worse do you think it is, really? I doubt most people (not random people, I'm talking target audience here) would even notice a difference. In the end, it all comes down to what feels like (and is presented to the player as) a simple % roll.
You aim at the enemy, you get shown some data. You will make a decision based on that data. You will hit or miss. Other things might happen as a consequence of the action.
As I said at the very beginning, the end result (assuming there is more than just hit-or-miss % rolls) can be so similar it just doesn't matter how it was implemented in the background.

Besides, a full physical simulation might lead to situations the devs actually want to prevent, because it would not fit their vision even if it was realistic.
Doing it all based on man-made random tables offers one thing a full simulation doesn't: control.
That might be what Alienman means with the board game feeling.
 

Declinator

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When you start taking into account friendly fire, obstacles, going through obstacles etc. it should be a no-brainer to just calculate the bullet's flight path. Fairly sure it'll be simpler to implement in the long run. However full-on ballistics calculations with bullet drop etc. is useless in this sort of a game unless you have a massive hard-on for realism.

Doable for a single bullet, yeah. But once you add things like miniguns, flamethrower, etc. the calculations can get out of hand easily.
Meh, you don't have to have some sort of flame physics. A flamethrower would essentially be an arc of damage which should offer, from an implementation point-of-view, a challenge no bigger than field-of-view. Minigun? Just a bunch of bullets. I think you overestimate how costly it is to calculate a bullet's flight path. Shooters have been able to calculate dozens if not hundreds of them simultaneously in real-time since eons ago after all.

Don't get me wrong, from a pure dev and tech perspective, I'd love a full simulation
But as a dev myself, I understand very well why this isn't done anymore since 3D environment became more... detailed.
Not done anymore? Pretty much all shooters simulate the bullet's flight path though? The reason they don't do it in strategy games like these is probably because of a combination of laziness and inability to see the value of it.
 

thesheeep

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Doable for a single bullet, yeah. But once you add things like miniguns, flamethrower, etc. the calculations can get out of hand easily.
Meh, you don't have to have some sort of flame physics. A flamethrower would essentially be an arc of damage which should offer, from an implementation point-of-view, a challenge no bigger than field-of-view. Minigun? Just a bunch of bullets. I think you overestimate how costly it is to calculate a bullet's flight path. Shooters have been able to calculate dozens if not hundreds of them simultaneously in real-time since eons ago after all.

Don't get me wrong, from a pure dev and tech perspective, I'd love a full simulation
But as a dev myself, I understand very well why this isn't done anymore since 3D environment became more... detailed.
Not done anymore? Pretty much all shooters simulate the bullet's flight path though? The reason they don't do it in strategy games like these is probably because of a combination of laziness and inability to see the value of it.
Real-time games have entirely different demands, especially shooters. Obviously, I wasn't talking about those ;)
In a shooter, you do not need to simulate the result of an action beforehand to give the player a summary if he should pull the trigger or not :lol:
Instead, the simulation advances in real-time, just as the game does.
Also, shooters only rarely feature realistic hit zones, instead relying on abstracted hit boxes in order not to calculate everything. And that is true not only for characters, but the entire environment. How often did your shots get stuck in air because of this?
This is an issue with FPS games to this date - though admittedly it did improve over the years with the CPUs and GPUs improving.
There is - to my knowledge - no game that does a complete physics simulation not relying on simplified abstractions (or being abstract to begin with, like Minecraft).

Another point is physics. There is simply no need to feature anything more than a very basic physical simulation (for effects, mostly) if you do not want a proper ballistic simulation.
But as soon as you need that, it will cost a lot of effort (after all, things can bounce off, so devs need to have different attributes for different materials, just as one example of many) and just having the simulation running all the time costs resources as well. Resources that may take away from AI.
To do it properly involves much, much more than you may think. There is big chain of "If we have this, we also need this. And if we have that, we also need...".
And if you did not do it properly, it would just suck. A strange bug in the physics part of the engine? Could throw you back weeks or months. A bad simulation is much worse than no simulation at all.

Now I'm not saying it's impossible. Of course not. But would each toaster be able to run it?
Not yet, anyway. And games like this aren't usually aimed at the high-end-PC crowd.
And, again, there are far more important things than the few % such an approach would yield over the much easier one based on % rolls.
 
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Latelistener

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A lot of apologizing here. While one will think how to overcome the limitations, others will find reasons why they shouldn't.
Have you tried at least Silent Storm and the various iterations of Men of War? It is an old RTS game, but it simulates everything. A shell can ricochet from a tank's armor, and continue its path until it hits something.
Games just became more popular, which means more stupid and lazy people among both, gamers and developers.
 

luinthoron

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Campaign update 16:
There’s only six days to go before the end of the campaign! Where’s the game demo video? That’s what everybody wants to know. The good news is that we made it. The bad news is that you will have to wait a while to see it. We have given a major media outlet exclusive first showing of the video, which will appear on Monday. This will give us some great exposure for the final few days of the campaign. But, don't despair, we have a few snippets for you in the animations below.

There is a new story for you here:

The Second Step, by Jonas Kyratzes

Animation Sequences
These animations are actually in the game. First up we have the crab queen claw attack. Lethal!

https%3A%2F%2Fd3pylr1apgoxnh.cloudfront.net%2Fcampaign_body_images%2Fimages%2F425bf6e4f8dcc0278d38c08dc38cb51b651efcee%2Foriginal.gif%3F1496430845


Here the Queen gives birth to a little larva. Cute!

https%3A%2F%2Fd3pylr1apgoxnh.cloudfront.net%2Fcampaign_body_images%2Fimages%2F2defac491e78072cd3e3138b7ad92f19bf7a6a95%2Foriginal.gif%3F1496430844


This is a stomp attack. That's got to hurt!

https%3A%2F%2Fd3pylr1apgoxnh.cloudfront.net%2Fcampaign_body_images%2Fimages%2F76fb963615e48820cecd0ae4e6ec5af273af01d7%2Foriginal.gif%3F1496430844




Underwater Alien Structure
Slavi has created a concept for an underwater alien base.

https%3A%2F%2Fd3pylr1apgoxnh.cloudfront.net%2Fcampaign_body_images%2Fimages%2F579ef8b41e14cf06e25a2a6e8c83aca607867cbd%2Foriginal.jpg%3F1496431181


Energy Weapons
Samuil continues to design weapons. Here is an energy weapon, built by Synedrion.

https%3A%2F%2Fd3pylr1apgoxnh.cloudfront.net%2Fcampaign_body_images%2Fimages%2F95f0d9151e6c05f1663244c866fed06697182051%2Foriginal.gif%3F1496431099
 

lightbane

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These ugly things are already urging me to kill them with FIRE!!! So I guess they're doing a good job design-wise.
 

Alienman

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"media outlet exclusive" meh.

They are doing so much random shit that goes against the whole indie thing, at least in my opinion.
 

Achilles

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When do we get the Chaos Reborn key? I imagine soon after the campaign ends?
 

Mazisky

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Again all those industrial docks and oil platforms, wtf
 

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