Turn-Based Tactics Phantom Doctrine - "tactical Cold War conspiracy thriller" by Hard West devs

[Zombra]

That is actually exactly what it is! FYI we read the positive reviews also. The only thing different with a negative review is it hurts business, limiting resources and driving us (and other companies) away from the genre.

So being a small time dev or whatever should shield you from negative reviews even if people don't like your game?

I don't think that's the point ... I feel like the way Steam reviews work is kind of biased to hurt smaller time devs and more "niche" games. That orange Mixed at the top of the page doesn't generally happen to big studios due to a lower common denominator. When thousands of kids are reviewing your game, one bad review doesn't matter ... when only a few dozen people review it, every single bad review is like a torpedo. PD has a few hundred reviews by now so the bar is lowering, but I see even the "most helpful" bad reviews are saying "good potential but not recommended in current state". Since we can all see the devs sincere efforts to fix problems, it would be terrible for these "not yet" bad reviews to tank the project.

I know you see the game as beyond saving due to fundamentals, and I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. But as a disinterested observer I do think that bad reviews at this stage, even if fair for the current state, are destructive and will tend to push things into a failure spiral, and since you're the only one I see hating on the awareness system, it would be a shame if the game disappeared instead of realizing its best potential.

 

[Alienman]

You can say that the review system goes the other way too. Leaving favorable reviews because it has "potential", and that way inflating the score. Honestly, I don't think it's a conspiracy. You release a game into the world, either you are ready or not and if your game is up to standards you will be getting good reviews.

If these reviewers are true to their word, they will change the review when the problem they are facing is resolved. I don't see a problem with this. If the problem is that big that you consider it game breaking why wouldn't you leave a review that says just that? You have payed money for it after all. I promise, if they change the combat system to something I consider fun I will change my review also.

Not sure what you mean with your last part, "I'm the only one"? Only one here? Or in general, because if you mean the second I must have some great pull alone dragging it down to 64%.

 

[Zombra]

You can say that the review system goes the other way too. Leaving favorable reviews because it has "potential", and that way inflating the score. Honestly, I don't think it's a conspiracy. You release a game into the world, either you are ready or not and if your game is up to standards you will be getting good reviews.

I don't disagree here, but as I explained, I think the system is biased against smaller/more niche projects and that should be considered.
"Good game good reviews bad game bad reviews what's the problem?" doesn't really account for how it all works.

If these reviewers are true to their word, they will change the review when the problem they are facing is resolved. I don't see a problem with this. If the problem is that big that you consider it game breaking why wouldn't you leave a review that says just that? You have payed money for it after all. I promise, if they change the combat system to something I consider fun I will change my review also.

I get it, but with no investment, why would they bother? I trust you to change your review, but I imagine a lot of these guys will move on and leave their bad reviews up even after the game is improved and their stuff is no longer accurate. Some of them may even stick around and enjoy the game, but never bother to update. I don't share your faith in other consumers.

Not sure what you mean with your last part, "I'm the only one"? Only one here? Or in general, because if you mean the second I must have some great pull alone dragging it down to 64%.

None of the neg reviews I glanced at say the game is fundamentally broken, they say cool ideas with flawed execution.

 

[azimuth]

Since 2012, the market has been flooded with "strategic tactical combat" games. XCOM was a huge hit and it inspired a renaissance in the genre.

The last few years have seen tons of good tactical turn-based games, including Battle Brothers and other modern classics.

We just had DOS 2 come out as the most successful turn-based RPG in a long time.

Battle Brothers, Xenonauts, and Invisible Inc were all made by small indie studios and they were all incredible. All of these are post-2012.

Sometimes a turd is a turd. Maybe they'll grow something out of their turd, but for now people need to be wary. It's a stealth game where guards can't see you turning off cameras right next to them, but they'll notice a body from across the map. They don't react to you smashing glass in their face, but they'll be fully aware of your entire squad the minute one of them shoots a gun. I can go on for ages about the problems in this game, but I've already done that.

It ain't good, and it'll be remembered as crap once choice-supportive bias has worn off unless they patch the hell out of it.

If they patch stealth to be challenging but effective (rather than easy, illogical, and effective), it might be worth recommending and playing.

 

[Lhynn]

Seriously, move this thread to grpg, this game came to this shit subforum to die, theres a lot more traffic there, especially from lurkers.


Thoughts so far, first is instant alert. A civilian sees you trespassing, you literally cant do shit but reload. You should have a round to act, even with mercs.
Second is related, you punch a merc, everyone is alerted because "he failed to report". These fuckers report every single round? give it more time before they get on guard.
Also could a stupid skymask be standard issue? I know you are trying to make the most out of the heat mechanics but its frustrating.

 

[Citizen]

this shit subforum

Spoiler

Spoiler

But you are right. Why Silent Storm threads are here and not in RPG discussion is also a mystery.

 

[Alienman]

None of the neg reviews I glanced at say the game is fundamentally broken, they say cool ideas with flawed execution.

Check the forum. There is a lot of stuff people find mystifying. Not only combat though. But I have seen reviews mentioning the combat and it's flaws thanks to the awareness system. But maybe I should change my wording from "broken" to "bad".
Just to make sure I'm not just talking out of my ass for hating the dev or anything like that, so here is an example of why I consider the system bad:

When the AI discovers that something is wrong they go into a patrol state. I'm not talking about combat here, just when they suspect that something is wrong. Your dudes are still in stealth mode. Anyway, that mean that he enemy agent(s) get FULL awareness.
So in one situation I was hiding my men behind a wall, and the agent come walking. But since the enemy agent has a health of 103 or something like that, I can't knock her out with a karate chop because the health of my agents are lower. I guess my agents don't know the concept of ganging up on a person

I do have 2 guys with silenced weapons though, and here most would think yeah that should be enough. A clear view to the neck on a unknowing person, but thanks to the awareness system that doesn't work either since she will dodge the attack. As you maybe can understand this is not only killing the gameplay but it's also highly immersion breaking if you value to have at least some realism in your spy game. If you don't expect every single agent to be Jason Bourne I guess.

A thing I find funny that doesn't really have anything to do with this situation per say, but there is a way to ignore the awareness completely in combat if you got the health for it and are close enough (and some dudes can run pretty far). You just run up and karate chop the guy.

 

[Stavrophore]

If you want competent turn based tactical game with stealth elements, just meet with people who play the games 20 years of their life, have high iq, and play tactical/strategy games. Its really simple to do such meeting and brainstorming the ideas. Contact with such people from time to time, when your ideas are forged by programmers into game, and the ideas that are not feasible are discarded you know with what material you are working with and can adjust in real time. The problem is, when this kind of meeting didnt occur in the first place, then you get really stupid decisions like azimuth pointed out rightly.You could probably get away with this for free or free game copy, for such grognards its rarely a matter of high payment They are not corporate suits who will shout 30k usd for an assignment.

And BTW the fact that guard standing is next to a player character and dont sound an alarm, while the PC does something illegal, might be explained by abstracting this, and not taking it literally. We dont know how long the one turn is, so you could for example do a hacking or photos sneakily, and then when guard turns you wont be there anymore.

Also given the engagement range and map zoom level, its really annoying since your real awareness[the one you have watching pc monitor] is really limited. Its absolutely menial and annoying to move the view all the time through whole map, to see where are the gaps and windows. Either lower the engagement range, increase zoom, or give a minimap with marked enemies, potential windows, ray tracing etc. Or just introduce the "has vision on enemy" from XCOM. This way you would also know how to move to engage enemy, sometimes its confusing.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Anyways.
Our meta going down, userscore is low, and as I said stock is, like, worth half it's recent value, so I'll be taking some time off from here and try to put my life together a bit.
I hope you enjoy the incoming fixes. If you have something that should be processed quickly, I recommend the steam forums.
Cheers!

Hard West is one of my favorite modern games and it had pretty bad reviews at launch too. Seemed to get more popular with time though.

I'll leave a positive review on Steam later.

 

[Jinn]

I have to say after playing for awhile with full knowledge of the FOS/FOV and sidestep mechanics, I'm not having any trouble with the system at all. It certainly needs to be something better communicated to the player ingame, but it seems to work pretty well overall. Been having a lot of fun in combat, including full-combat missions. I don't feel that the deterministic system that awareness brings to the table is nearly as detrimental as that found in Divinity Original Sin 2, for example. Enemies starting out with zero awareness at the beginning of combat evens things out nicely, and it's not that difficult to wear it down or re-position and get the upper hand. That being said, I think that the planned improvements of the system seem like they will not only pacify users who continue to be confused, but also make things run more smoothly overall.

Stealth could use more urgency, and does seem a little too abstract, even for someone like me who understands and enjoys abstractions in video games. Entering a trespassing zone in front of a guard just feels wrong. I really like the general flow of it though: initial recon of the area pre-engagement, staking out the location, disabling cameras and infrared barriers, finding out who in your crew is capable of taking down an opponent, and what is the best way to approach a breaching situation. I think with a little more tweaking of AI behavior, this could be a really unique and great turn-based stealth system.

I've been overall pleased with the world map management. I like that it utilizes your actual agents, and therefore puts you in tight places if you don't plan accordingly. Send a good agent on a stakeout at the wrong time, and I'm regretting it, but with a smile on my face. It could be fleshed out more, and I suspect it will be in future updates, but overall it is engaging.

What has really become apparent to me is how important character and equipment progression is to success in this game, which is something that I really enjoy. I've started over my campaign a couple times and noticed a significant improvement in my overall mission success having paid careful attention to who I'm sending out in the field, and who could use improvement. I have to also emphasize how important looting is. Try to loot at least one or two crates throughout each mission, if not all of them. You'll find that you not only have a plethora of much improved equipment to use, but also more things to buy in general. This emphasis on equipment and character progression in a game like this is very enjoyable once you understand its integral nature to your overall success. Things like unlocking agents and equipment through found intel are great touches, not to mention the particularly rewarding agent rescue missions. Once you get a number of top-tier agents working for you, the fire you're taking from enemies seems much less daunting.

Bottom line is that I keep coming back and having fun, even though I'm trying to hold out for the new patches. This unique amalgamation of mechanics is not shit, it's just difficult and sometimes confusing to adapt to when you're coming from other games. This is a different type of game than just a straight turn-based combat simulator or stealth game. It's trying a lot of different things, struggling at times, but ultimately coming across to me as intriguing and addictive.

For those interested, been playing on hard without reloading missions once they begin, but admittedly save scumming on the world map occasionally. Still in chapter one KGB with a few level 5 agents. Total playtime including restarts is 17 hours.

 

[Rahdulan]

Anyways.
Our meta going down, userscore is low, and as I said stock is, like, worth half it's recent value, so I'll be taking some time off from here and try to put my life together a bit.
I hope you enjoy the incoming fixes. If you have something that should be processed quickly, I recommend the steam forums.
Cheers!

I can only imagine how it must be right now, but I would still encourage you not to go full radio silence. That community interaction and feedback is vital if only for perception's sake.

 

[Stavrophore]

Anyways.
Our meta going down, userscore is low, and as I said stock is, like, worth half it's recent value, so I'll be taking some time off from here and try to put my life together a bit.
I hope you enjoy the incoming fixes. If you have something that should be processed quickly, I recommend the steam forums.
Cheers!

I can only imagine how it must be right now, but I would still encourage you not to go full radio silence. That community interaction and feedback is vital if only for perception's sake.

We are a friendly bunch of people, you dont have to be afraid of us!!!

 

[PhantasmaNL]

Can someone who has the game tell me if you can remap the keyboard keys?

Edit: excellent, thanks

 

[veevoir]

Seriously, move this thread to grpg, this game came to this shit subforum to die, theres a lot more traffic there, especially from lurkers.


Thoughts so far, first is instant alert. A civilian sees you trespassing, you literally cant do shit but reload. You should have a round to act, even with mercs.
Second is related, you punch a merc, everyone is alerted because "he failed to report". These fuckers report every single round? give it more time before they get on guard.
Also could a stupid skymask be standard issue? I know you are trying to make the most out of the heat mechanics but its frustrating.

1. If yo have someone on overwatch and they have the person discovering you in the range (civilian or enemy) - they shoot them, if they manage to kill - no alert. So there is a way to prevent such issues.

2. After you punch out ~30% enemies I think it is not everyone that gets alerted. Only enemy Agents (if present). I actually used this to my advantage to lure them out of difficult rooms into overwatch traps or rooms I could easily breach and sprint for evac from.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

So having spent some time playing this and Hard West, I feel like I respect the developer, but they still have some growing to do. One of the biggest things I give them credit for is their choices of setting and the way they capture the setting's atmosphere. I think they did a superb job of that in both HW and PD, and that's no small thing. And I respect that they clearly learned from HW when making PD - gone are the disconnected chapters and instead they allow you to keep your squad as the game progresses. That's great. They did a good job with the base management, although it has some flaws. The corkboard is a neat idea but isn't much of a puzzle in actuality. I don't know what the answer to that is though because if it's too hard it becomes an impediment to progression for more of your average gamer, so I think where it is now - an atmospheric "thing to do" that may not be a well fleshed out mechanic in its own right is probably your best option. The heat meters and a lot of the base customization is pretty good - could always be better but it's fine. The world map and sending your agents on missions? I think that's really great, honestly. Big success there, and one area where the deterministic approach (based on how early they begin) rather than RNG is a good design decision.

Agent progression kind of sucks though. Some perks are overpowered. While I like the concept of training to increase skills/proficiencies, I don't know if I like the fact that training them takes them out of the front lines for awhile - I probably would have made it instant but still lock trainings. I think my biggest issue is itemization - there are both too many options and not enough to set the options apart. It doesn't feel like much of a progression to me.

Combat/stealth just needs a rework. Cameras overlooking doors that lead to trespass areas but don't really serve a purpose in alerting people inside is a weird choice. People watching you enter a trespassing area and not saying anything is a weird choice. There should probably be more of a distinction between civvies and guards/agents in how they react to seeing someone in a secure area. The glass breaking not bothering anyone - shutting off cameras in front of guards and them not reacting... There's just a lot wrong with that. Probably needed more QA/play-testing there because also the issues seem so obvious that I'm shocked it made it into a release build. Combat - some of this is taste, but I hate the awareness system and I think RNG is fine when dealing with gunplay. At least a little bit - cover feels largely useless because of it. Like - why not make it deterministic unless you're in cover, in which case you get 75% to hit and 50% to hit if you're in half or full cover respectively? Also, the lack of a to hit means there isn't much difference other than HP pool in your run of the mill guard versus an enemy agent in a lot of ways. IF the agent were more accurate then they would feel like more of a threat vis a vis red shirts. Also - LOS has issues as has been discussed, and the enemies seeming to have 20:5 vision from across the map is just bad. I also hate the 1 move + 1 shoot AP mechanic, but with nuXcom that's just the lay of the land now.

Overall I still think it's a good game. They did a lot right with atmosphere and put a lot of care into making the game fun, but I think they fell down in some of the execution areas. But I do see a progression from this and Hard West, and I appreciate the love they give to underserved settings. I hope they rebound, learn from mistakes, and make a new game in the future. I wouldn't mind another western myself.

Comparing it to other recent games which I feel were more successful - I think you can tell the games that spend the majority of their time developing *systems* that work (Underrail, Battle Brothers, Xenonauts), and then focus on content, versus the games that go in content-focused and try to superimpose systems on them.

 

[waterdeep]

Steam reviews are filled with seething Xcom morons.

 

[Bigg Boss]

Since 2012, the market has been flooded with "strategic tactical combat" games. XCOM was a huge hit and it inspired a renaissance in the genre.

The last few years have seen tons of good tactical turn-based games, including Battle Brothers and other modern classics.

We just had DOS 2 come out as the most successful turn-based RPG in a long time.

Battle Brothers, Xenonauts, and Invisible Inc were all made by small indie studios and they were all incredible. All of these are post-2012.

Sometimes a turd is a turd. Maybe they'll grow something out of their turd, but for now people need to be wary. It's a stealth game where guards can't see you turning off cameras right next to them, but they'll notice a body from across the map. They don't react to you smashing glass in their face, but they'll be fully aware of your entire squad the minute one of them shoots a gun. I can go on for ages about the problems in this game, but I've already done that.

It ain't good, and it'll be remembered as crap once choice-supportive bias has worn off unless they patch the hell out of it.

If they patch stealth to be challenging but effective (rather than easy, illogical, and effective), it might be worth recommending and playing.

And we still can't get anything remotely close to Jagged Alliance 2 or Fallout Tactics.

 

[Raghar]

Frankly, this is one of reason why I don't like to give advice to commercial developers. They look like they seen rich companies in US and UK, and decided "It's load of money you can get. Lets do the same."

In reality it's a lot of SW eng decision, it's a lot of designing of working systems (which is easy for me, hard for typical university student). And a lot of extracurricular education in various fields including art. If they didn't learned this stuff parallel to school education, they would have hard time to learn it during work.

And now there is a kicker. Even when they learn it, and become competent company they are still dependent on whim of end users, which taste can change abruptly within a year. Or some other company by accident or willingly release something that would compete for the same group of users. Translated, if they survive as a company longer than 15 years, definitely doesn't purely depend on theirs skill.

What I seen as the biggest problem is, they should do game analysis on other (pirated) games 6 hour a week for half of year. While they are not students, they should get some general knowledge about what other developers did, write down sharp and detailed paper about what were theirs disadvantages, and why they decided these disadvantages are still worthy. UFO:EU a game from decades ago, has missed shots, environmental damage, and different stats for front and back armor. (They even calculate reduction of armor protection by too strong impact.)



But, I remember 15 years ago, developers were quite happy when they finished project. Yay it's everything working. Yay a vacation. I didn't see bitching of this level. This looks like how certain 15 years old boys behaved during socialism. Nowadays with all these, they are only teenagers excuses, 21 year old probably act as 15 years old did during socialism. Unsure about themselves, too dependent on ideas of others, unable to stomach criticism.

Frankly I should cite the recommendation from that teacher from Hen Zemi anime. "Get laid." Perhaps it's not the wisest recommendation, but it's decent first aid.

 

[Raghar]

I appreciate your spunk, but the streamer I was watching played on Medium (shenryyr - check it out, he snoozes through every mission)

thanks!

shenryyr is actually quite capable. Normal users are typically a lot worse. If he plays on normal, it should be easy for him, but that doesn't mean it's easy for normal users. He did say the tactical part is the weakest part of the game.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Frankly, this is one of reason why I don't like to give advice to commercial developers. They look like they seen rich companies in US and UK, and decided "It's load of money you can get. Lets do the same."

In reality it's a lot of SW eng decision, it's a lot of designing of working systems (which is easy for me, hard for typical university student). And a lot of extracurricular education in various fields including art. If they didn't learned this stuff parallel to school education, they would have hard time to learn it during work.

And now there is a kicker. Even when they learn it, and become competent company they are still dependent on whim of end users, which taste can change abruptly within a year. Or some other company by accident or willingly release something that would compete for the same group of users. Translated, if they survive as a company longer than 15 years, definitely doesn't purely depend on theirs skill.

What I seen as the biggest problem is, they should do game analysis on other (pirated) games 6 hour a week for half of year. While they are not students, they should get some general knowledge about what other developers did, write down sharp and detailed paper about what were theirs disadvantages, and why they decided these disadvantages are still worthy. UFO:EU a game from decades ago, has missed shots, environmental damage, and different stats for front and back armor. (They even calculate reduction of armor protection by too strong impact.)



But, I remember 15 years ago, developers were quite happy when they finished project. Yay it's everything working. Yay a vacation. I didn't see bitching of this level. This looks like how certain 15 years old boys behaved during socialism. Nowadays with all these, they are only teenagers excuses, 21 year old probably act as 15 years old did during socialism. Unsure about themselves, too dependent on ideas of others, unable to stomach criticism.

Frankly I should cite the recommendation from that teacher from Hen Zemi anime. "Get laid." Perhaps it's not the wisest recommendation, but it's decent first aid.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

https://steamspy.com/app/559100

Owners: 0 .. 20,000
Followers: 27,809
Peak concurrent players yesterday: 2,250

No idea how good or bad these numbers are with current state of Steamspy.
How many sales do they need to break even?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

https://steamspy.com/app/559100

Owners: 0 .. 20,000
Followers: 27,809
Peak concurrent players yesterday: 2,250

No idea how good or bad these numbers are with current state of Steamspy.
How many sales do they need to break even?

Steamspy is worthless now.

 

[Alienman]

Since 2012, the market has been flooded with "strategic tactical combat" games. XCOM was a huge hit and it inspired a renaissance in the genre.

The last few years have seen tons of good tactical turn-based games, including Battle Brothers and other modern classics.

We just had DOS 2 come out as the most successful turn-based RPG in a long time.

Battle Brothers, Xenonauts, and Invisible Inc were all made by small indie studios and they were all incredible. All of these are post-2012.

Sometimes a turd is a turd. Maybe they'll grow something out of their turd, but for now people need to be wary. It's a stealth game where guards can't see you turning off cameras right next to them, but they'll notice a body from across the map. They don't react to you smashing glass in their face, but they'll be fully aware of your entire squad the minute one of them shoots a gun. I can go on for ages about the problems in this game, but I've already done that.

It ain't good, and it'll be remembered as crap once choice-supportive bias has worn off unless they patch the hell out of it.

If they patch stealth to be challenging but effective (rather than easy, illogical, and effective), it might be worth recommending and playing.

And we still can't get anything remotely close to Jagged Alliance 2 or Fallout Tactics.

At this point making something like Silent Storm would be considered fresh and new, that is the irony of it all.

 

[Stavrophore]

Seeing the XCOM crowd bitching about line of sight and lack of RNG/deterministic combat is really disturbing. Retards probably move in in front of 5 enemies and then curl and cry getting pummeled xD. People bitching about avoiding combat, yes you avoid the combat, unless you go full 6 people squad with heavy armor, then if you have a brain it will be a cakewalk. Seriously my A-Team full of steroids, with LMGs, SPAS12, Assault rifles and sniper rifle and heaviest armor just obliterate shit up. With added support -two snipers, toxic smoke, you really have upper hand in most missions if you want to go loud. Its fun, there's drawback of course, you have to pay up for decreasing heat meter.

Im really afraid seeing people reaction to PD, about new true Jagged Alliance alike game. People are so invested in XCOM mindset they can't grasp anything else.

 

[Alienman]

Grasp anything else? The system is basically nuXcom with guaranteed hits except for the abstract awareness variable. The game would be better off being an nuXcom clone. At least people would understand it and fights would be enjoyable (depending of course on how much you like the nuXcom system). This push for a deterministic system is disturbing in my opinion. To me it's just another step away from the tactical genre I know and love.