Turn-Based Tactics Phantom Doctrine - "tactical Cold War conspiracy thriller" by Hard West devs

[Stavrophore]

I found another bug, when you train the second weapon specialty of agents, and they haven't finished it yet before the base is compromised, then their training will be bugged, it wont finish, it cant be cancelled. Please fix this asap.

Line of sight is definitely bugged sometimes, enemies shooting through walls, or on angles they shouldnt have view.

 

[Kacper Szymczak]

Is there a way to get the 4th intel in the first mission without triggering the alarm?

nope, there isn't (intentionally: up until this point players don't have a good reason to engage in combat, and if they don't get it at this point, they ended up going well in without ever trying it or having made up fears like "alarm is gameover", etc)

How many spy novels and conspiracy theories did you guys read in preparation for this game?
I love how the intel stuff is full of that stuff (Star Wars program, using Indigo children parents as fools and other stuff) and it is funny

Thanks! The people responsible for this - a ton. Myself - I rewatched my couple of inspirations over and over instead.

Is this sarcasm or what

You designed a pretty unusual system here, did you not invest any thought into the implications? Was it all just "let's make something WEIRD AND DIFFERENT"?

What? No. The problem here, clearly, is that the tension (inherently doable in the system given the number and magnitude of unknown variables) doesn't come through for some reason. Fixable.

So far the game is a little barebone. Looks like it was build with DLCs in mind.

Wait, what?
Compared to what exactly? Which turn based tactical it is, in your perception, smaller than? Are you talking number of levels, different campaigns or gameplay systems?

I have no idea why people experiment with weird gameplay without getting down the fundamentals. Especially since with tactical game fundamentals are everything.

If you mean eg. classic X-Com was the fundamentals, then you probably also assume that reusing mechanics that are 20 years old is perfect for mass market console games and business models.
Or that commercial and critical success is irrelevant.
Or that getting attention from press is irrelevant.
Anyways, you seem to be suggesting tactical games are a big genre with all successful games having these "fundamentals" right, while in fact every single one of the successful ones has the "fundamentals" completely different.
Like, dude, even Gollop skipped his own 'fundamentals'.
Unless, you assume success = mixed appreciation of a couple of hardcore forum trolls that believe all the best games ever have already been made 20 years ago, then I lay my arms, sir.
Either way, I have no idea why people think knowing games is the same thing as knowing about making games.

XCOM 2: WOTC [...] Invisible Inc [...]

Either you wrote this 2 hours in, or we miserably failed in communicating this is bigger and deeper than XCOM and Invisible combined. Oh well.

The LOS out of nowhere also annoys me, it is like if the enemy agents had no vision range limit - I am a map away from the nearest enemy, so how is he able to see & shoot me? It is not squadsight (I get they can target me if one has LOS, fair enough). So what gives?

It's actually exactly the same way it is in XCOM, but there's a bug in visuals and another in AI that cheats a bit. Testing the fixes today and most probably deploying in the evening, stay tuned.
Also, enemies have the same gun ranges as you (unlike some other games I can mention).

Watch out for ironman - it seems to delete your save if you crash or quit without saving.

noted, thanks, will inspect

Also actor/disguise is really OP. Watching a streamer go through and chop literally everything right now. What's the point of all the weapons and grenades and weapon perks? Just chop everything!

On easy, yes.

In my playtime of the aforementioned 8 hours, I've only encountered one repeated mission type, which was the one where you attack an agent who's been tracking down your HQ. The mission type was the same, however the map, enemies, weapons they were using, and barriers, etc were all different. Pretty good for 8 hours into a game like this I think. Also, you are aware that there are 4 different mission type approaches to those situations where an agent is tracking your HQ, right? They are time sensitive and unlockable through agent skills and different buildable facilities. Maybe Kacper Szymczak can chime in on this one?

Yes. And every single enemy agent might have different weapon/abilities/items up their sleeve.
And enemy reinforcements tend to shuffle the map.
And your agents might act up with their sleeper effects.

Though I do feel they should have added a speed up option of some sort.

There is one. Not enough?

when and how do i blow my cover?

Heat goes up on combat start.

Second flanking damage i guess awareness is useless when you are flanked or you flank the enemy likewise?

Nope. Bursts are especially effective when flanking though.

It would be fine if i was punished or in a hurry doing this

but after some time, you will trigger the enemy agent searching for you. [...] This prevents you cleaning the map one by one.

you quite literallly contradicted yourself

Game like to lock your controls after you save, thats also a bug. And yeah ive just lost a bunch of saves because the game hanged...

A lot of games (all?) lose focus if you alt-tab during loading.

You can train agents at some point in certain languages and backgrounds. So if you send an agent to a German location to do recon, for example, train them in speaking German and their heat meter will rise much more slowly because they are blending in better

Not true, but I like the idea <3
Like, literally, 1) there's no way to add new languages to agents 2) languages only affect the access to ability "Distract" in tactical missions; doesn't affect heat.

Heat just drops over time if you're not compromised

I completely forgot about this heat meter. And how do i train agents to use other languages?

You can't.

how do I speed up the combat? I have all the options under 'gameplay' ticked

well, this is still a pretty rare opinion, so not a highest priority, but it's been popping up already, so it's on the list

slow as fuck

I was told that's actually good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn7oEYe4ePc

I found another bug, when you train the second weapon specialty of agents, and they haven't finished it yet before the base is compromised, then their training will be bugged, it wont finish, it cant be cancelled. Please fix this asap.

noted, thanks!

 

[Jinn]

Not true, but I like the idea <3
Like, literally, 1) there's no way to add new languages to agents 2) languages only affect the access to ability "Distract" in tactical missions; doesn't affect heat.

Sorry about the misinformation. Don't know where I got that from. Seems like a cool idea maybe for an expansion though, eh ?

There is one. Not enough?

I just noticed tonight that you could switch enemy movement to run only, which speeds things up quite nicely. Good enough for me, but might not be for some. Maybe a TAB button activated fast-forward on enemy phase for those a little more antsy?

EDIT: Just noticed there is actually a checkbox in options for sped up combat animations. Sorry about that! But it would still be nice to be able to toggle it ingame.

Thanks again for taking the time to come here and address our comments and issues, by the way. I'm sure you guys are very busy right now. Really appreciate when a developer is willing to talk openly about their game here.


Anyway, gotta go to sleep. Can't wait to play more tomorrow.

 

[azimuth]

I appreciate your spunk, but the streamer I was watching played on Medium (shenryyr - check it out, he snoozes through every mission), and I personally waltz through missions on Hard without setting off alarms. It's just poorly balanced. In fact, I think the stealth system is fundamentally poorly thought-out and you would have done better swiping Invisible Inc.'s system wholesale.

The idea that PD is "bigger and deeper than XCOM and Invisible combined" is hilarious. Outside of the story missions, you have like 3 "dynamic" missions on repeat with no interesting variables involved.

Play your own damn game.

 

[Kacper Szymczak]

I appreciate your spunk, but the streamer I was watching played on Medium (shenryyr - check it out, he snoozes through every mission)

thanks!

The idea that PD is "bigger and deeper than XCOM and Invisible combined" is hilarious.

no seriously list XCOM and Invisible gameplay features and I'll tell which we have and add the surplus to the list

Play your own damn game.

no, never

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Sorry about the misinformation

Par for the course in an espionage game.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

XCOM and Invisible gameplay features

Xcom has melee weapons and the ability to krump gits out of stealth.
Checkmate.

 

[ArchAngel]

XCOM and Invisible gameplay features

Xcom has melee weapons and the ability to krump gits out of stealth.
Checkmate.

Melee weapons pale in comparison to the power of the karate chop. Didn't you watch any James Bond movies from the 80s?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

XCOM and Invisible gameplay features

Xcom has melee weapons and the ability to krump gits out of stealth.
Checkmate.

Melee weapons pale in comparison to the power of the karate chop. Didn't you watch any James Bond movies from the 80s?

He was Brit though. These guys are American and Russky.

 

[azimuth]

Read my post, man. I have 10 hours in the game. PD's potentially patchable (reworkable) crap stealth system aside, a game like Invisible Inc offers replayability by introducing several layers that interact to create unique missions: Corp (4/5) x Mission type (9?) x Mission difficulty level (8+). This means there are (4*9*8) over 288 basic mission varieties before you even get into the randomized maps, (very diverse) enemy variety, and Alarm Level type (early v late game).

Outside of linear story missions, PD has 3? mission types? Kill/capture agent is by far the most common, followed by assault defense and informer defense. This is all I've seen after 10 hours of gameplay and many hours with streams on in the background. They're almost all "kill x" missions. There's no modifier here -- no faction that fundamentally alters the makeup of the level, no radically different mission types like robbing a bank or something to get cash.

Imagine if you had dynamic tail missions instead of just leaving that to the worldmap. Imagine if you freed powerful agents from cells rather than unlocking them through the disappointing Intel Board mechanic. (Weirdest mechanic by far is when you "unlock" traits on friendly agents by... gathering intel... from the enemy...?) Imagine dynamic missions to steal cool unique tech or unique weapons that can't be found anywhere else.

Even your enemies are boring. There aren't enough variables involved. Samey trash mobs aside, why don't agents have modifiers like "many heavily armed bodyguards" or "immune to x"? Where's the agent who is strapped with bombs that explode on his death? These would be amazing dynamic modifiers that make enemy agents unique! Enemy agents that you don't snipe early should grow over the course of the game to become unique nemeses with unique abilities -- something like the Chosen in WOTC. Yours just stay generic. There's no reason to bother learning about enemy agents as it's all the same boring thing every time you find one: either chop him (trivially easy) or just shoot him. Any abilities they may have are small in number and very generic. No special planning is required to prepare for specific agents with clear, specific strengths and weaknesses.

Again, just my opinion after 10 hours and many hours watching streams while I work. I'd be more than happy to be wrong, but 10 hours is a lot of my life

 

[Stavrophore]

and I personally waltz through missions on Hard without setting off alarms.

You are lying if you blitz games on hard, its impossible, unless you savescum. I know because i do.

 

[veevoir]

Ah, good to know LOS gets a patch. Just to clarify - no issue with range of weapons (I mean often weapons can shoot further than you can reliably see), but if they can see me outside of what normally is my own vision range - that is wonky.

It also made overwatch pretty pointless in the open, they fire at 2-3x the range of overwatch cone

Also Kacper Szymczak does enemy damage also fall off as fast with range like my team does? Or simply it feels that they do much more dmg flanking because they all run with LMGs?

 

[Mazisky]

I think that nowadays a dev can just copy paste Xcom 2, give it a fantasy setting and sell a lot more than any other turn based game.

 

[Volrath]

But Xcom 2 is shit.

 

[xmd1997]

Also Kacper Szymczak does enemy damage also fall off as fast with range like my team does? Or simply it feels that they do much more dmg flanking because they all run with LMGs?

According to the game manual (Awesome resource btw), it should. Although sniper rifles are an exception as the manual mentions they do more damage the farther away the target is.

 

[veevoir]

Sniper rifles are boss in general, once rescued an SB informant (something that obviously had to happen in Polish game) with Dragunov proficiency (for supressor and AP ammo mods) and gave her Sure Shot training - lulz were had.

Also - MKUltra facility is counter-intuitive. Having to pay 1250 and +20 danger for something that was for free before is bullshit. I stopped capturing enemy agents.

Maybe an option of field interrogation (so what we had before building this facility) with reduced intel payout instead of taking them to base would be good? And make it cost both before & after facility - if you dont have the money for field interrogation & no facility - they just get a bullet.

 

[Spectacle]

Game is still in the top sellers list on steam after two days. Kacper Szymczak I hope you're making a lot of money!

 

[Zombra]

Imagine if you had dynamic tail missions instead of just leaving that to the worldmap. Imagine if you freed powerful agents from cells rather than unlocking them through the disappointing Intel Board mechanic. Imagine dynamic missions to steal cool unique tech or unique weapons that can't be found anywhere else. Even your enemies are boring. There aren't enough variables involved. Samey trash mobs aside, why don't agents have modifiers like "many heavily armed bodyguards" or "immune to x"? Where's the agent who is strapped with bombs that explode on his death?

You mean like in XCOM and IInc? Or are you just making up a bunch of crap in some game that never existed? Anyone can brainstorm a million features that aren't in a game. Imagine if you could flap your arms and fly to the moon! You're not proving anything about how those games are deeper than PD.

 

[Alienman]

Like, dude, even Gollop skipped his own 'fundamentals'.

He actually changed to time-units. Who knows if he we will change it again though. But his game also has "true" LoS, and walls actually protects instead of just being something that lowers damage.

 

[Stavrophore]

Like, dude, even Gollop skipped his own 'fundamentals'.

He actually changed to time-units. Who knows if he we will change it again though. But his game also has "true" LoS, and walls actually protects instead of just being something that lowers damage.

Even with this complexity Phoenix Point dont hog the CPU as much as Phantom Doctrine

You know what i would like on hard mode, instead of disposing a body just let me carry it, and place in other place. Disposing, as in normal mode, where the body just vanish is stupid, but so is killing a guy and then leaving the body, because the game can't let you just move it...You could try to balance it out, since it will make hard diff easier.

 

[azimuth]

Imagine if you had dynamic tail missions instead of just leaving that to the worldmap. Imagine if you freed powerful agents from cells rather than unlocking them through the disappointing Intel Board mechanic. Imagine dynamic missions to steal cool unique tech or unique weapons that can't be found anywhere else. Even your enemies are boring. There aren't enough variables involved. Samey trash mobs aside, why don't agents have modifiers like "many heavily armed bodyguards" or "immune to x"? Where's the agent who is strapped with bombs that explode on his death?

You mean like in XCOM and IInc? Or are you just making up a bunch of crap in some game that never existed? Anyone can brainstorm a million features that aren't in a game. Imagine if you could flap your arms and fly to the moon! You're not proving anything about how those games are deeper than PD.

You quoted one paragraph in a much longer post about my biggest complaint: samey missions. I've explained how Invisible Inc and XCOM 2 WOTC achieved replayability in several posts now. Read the first paragraph again. Even in that same post, I mentioned the Chosen in XCOM2 as an analogue for how enemy agents should be: they have things like "immune to x" and "summon help," and these abilities are randomized in each playthrough. The Chosen also get new abilities over time.

I also talked about how diverse the enemies are in those games vs. the samey generic enemies (and agents) in PD. I feel like I'm just repeating my entire post to you because you didn't read it.

"Extra bodyguards" and immunities can also be seen in a game like Shadow of Mordor. I'm not asking for the Nemesis System, but if high-level enemy agents had a couple of cool random modifiers like I mentioned (and like the Chosen in XCOM 2), the enemy agents would be much more interesting and the game would be less samey as a result.

Anyway, in that part of a much longer post, I was describing other ways to make the game less samey and more interesting. More than the junk tactical combat and trash stealth system (should have stolen Invisible's system), it's the boring samey missions that kill it for me.

 

[azimuth]

Also, robbery, "freeing powerful agents from cells," and "dynamic missions to steal cool unique tech or unique weapons" are all in Invisible Inc. Just three examples of more dynamic mission types than simply "kill x".

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Zombra]

Also it feels that im abusing movement + shoot + go back out of line of sight

Silence, there is nothing wrong with TUs ever.

 

[Alienman]

Anyone here played the Beirut mission? It's the perfect example why this combat system is just poor. Forced combat with 6-8 commandos (with reinforcements) that when spotted all of them open fire on your most exposed guy with guaranteed hits. Remember with no way of mitigate the damage if you have low awareness since actually taking cover is mostly pointless. And don't tell me about smoke grenades, because you need to fill the grenade spot with regular grenades since that is the only grenade worth something since it actually does damage and ignore the enemy awareness. Damn, what a cluster fuck.