KickStarter Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Azarkon]

Because they're someone who rule shit you're going to rule?
Because that's your first villain so you get some phrases?

It's not just the commander who talks

oh no

All of this talking is just silly at the beginning of a game, especially when it's just exposition

Where the fuck do you put exposition but the beginning of the game?

It's not dwarf with leathery bags of wrinkles, they're actually telling you relevant shit and introduce main characters.

All of this talking is just silly

uninstall.exe POE & Numanuma, I'm afraid you're too contaminated and at this point you'll react like this to anything but TAKE QUEST? > YES/NO (sorry if I triggered you with the unnecessary choice)

Banal starting scenarios like "go kill bandits" require better presentation than 15 minutes of exposition. It's not too much to ask. First impressions matter and set the stage for player engagement. Compare MoTB's first 15 minutes. Or KOTOR 2. Or New Vegas.

This game obviously took inspiration from Obsidian's games; what's unfortunate is that it took inspiration from the wrong games.

 

[Cael]

Never go full exposition in the prelude. That is where many RPGs fail. Not just CRPG, but also tabletop games when DMs got full Encyclopedia Britannica on the players.

Not even DAO did that. Reveal only what the player needs to know for the immediate environment he is in. That is where the different origins did very well. The Dwarf or Elf origins had nothing to say on mages, but only on what a typical dwarf or elf would know (dwarven brutal political infighting, elven loss of Arlathan and persecution by humans, etc.).

Lone Wolf does a good one as well. In Book 1, you only know that the Darklords are the bad guys and they wiped out your fellows. The world kept being built on as the series progressed. By Book 12, you have been to a large part of eastern Northern Magnamund and bits of the Daziarn.

If the players don't need to know the information, then skip it or put it in optional areas until it is really needed.

 

[Neanderthal]

You want exposition, do like Ultima or Arcanum, put it in the fucking manual. Nice relaxed intro to a game.

 

[Risewild]

You want exposition, do like Ultima or Arcanum, put it in the fucking manual. Nice relaxed intro to a game.

I can already see youngl'ns asking "what's a manual?".

 

[ERYFKRAD]

You want exposition, do like Ultima or Arcanum, put it in the fucking manual. Nice relaxed intro to a game.

I can already see youngl'ns asking "what's a manual?".

And I can see their dumber predecessors replying, "well some cars are automatic, and others manual"

 

[Cael]

You want exposition, do like Ultima or Arcanum, put it in the fucking manual. Nice relaxed intro to a game.

I can already see youngl'ns asking "what's a manual?".

And I can see their dumber predecessors replying, "well some cars are automatic, and others manual"

... The only paper the millenials are aware of is the one wrapping their smashed avocado sandwiches or the one they wipe their arse with. One guess as to what they will do with a real paper manual if they ever lay their hands on one (hint: it is not read).

 

[Shadenuat]

Banal starting scenarios like "go kill bandits" require better presentation than 15 minutes of exposition.

I'm sorry wat
Now you're losing me. why is local lord telling you to go kill banditos is not enoff to go kill banditos?

This game obviously took inspiration from Obsidian's games

It's basically NWN1 prologue - meet npc/lords and companions then evil dudes come; and BG1 act 1-2 - hunt banditos and kobolds in forests, not any obsidian games.

Reveal only what the player needs to know for the immediate environment he is in

exactly what happens in kingmaker prologue. noone tells you about that meanwhile, baba yaga with army of snow dragons conquers the far away land. (I am not shitting you that's actually happened in pathfinder there is whole series about it)

 

[Lacrymas]

But can I ally with Baba Yaga? She seems to have a solid plan.

 

[Shadenuat]

that i don't know, i just know there was a precedent

The following year the witch-queen Baba Yaga invaded the Linnorm Kingdom of Raemerrund and the Djurstor Confederacy from over the Winterwall Glacier, bringing with her an army of ice trolls, cold fey, frost giant, white dragons, and other evil creatures.

Queen Tashanna used the power of the Torc of Kostchtchie to summon the demon lord Kostchtchie and forced him to assist her in fending off the Witch Queen. Despite this assistance, Tashanna and her followers were quickly defeated by Baba Yaga.



Class Witch 20 / Archmage 10 her level https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/The_Witch_Queen's_Revenge

 

[Lacrymas]

Linnorm Kingdom of Raemerrund in the Djurstor Confederacy in the Madeuplandia Peninsula along the Whoarethesepeeps Mountains and Dowecare Sea.

 

[Shadenuat]

it's basically sweden with a portal from planescape into land of fey or something. in DM terms, it's "that north place where players can come from if they want to play vikings". and if you want to be king there you must kill a dragon first, no exceptions.

 

[santino27]

You want exposition, do like Ultima or Arcanum, put it in the fucking manual. Nice relaxed intro to a game.

Kind of a tangent, but I do wonder if the move to digital has hurt some games in a way I would have never anticipated. Compared to the 80s/90s, manuals are now often an afterthought for both devs and gamers, and I wonder if some designers therefore try to take what would have once been in the manual and instead cram it into the game's intro.

 

[Thonius]

Is there leaked beta anywhere?
Edit: I backed it, so as I see it it's not wrong.

 

[Shadenuat]

Kind of a tangent, but I do wonder if the move to digital has hurt some games in a way I would have never anticipated. Compared to the 80s/90s, manuals are now often an afterthought for both devs and gamers, and I wonder if some designers therefore try to take what would have once been in the manual and instead cram it into the game's intro.

I don't think so. There were always games that did the self explanation better or worse. Writing is like sculpting, you chip away the parts until there is nothing more to take out, but it takes time to realise that, especially for people who are not very experienced and just got their hands on the power which is dialogue editor. The first time I got my hands on NWN toolkit, for example, it was exhilarating, and no wonder how quickly everything got out of hand, as every NPC I've made had like thousands words worth of dialogue regardless it they were important to the plot or not. Once you have the power over shaping a little pile of polygons into a person it's hard to stop.

Personally, I believe there is just a problem with editing in the whole medium. Editing is the key to a good text, but my guess it's costly and there might be problems with it in games. I would gladly right now take hot knife and cut some chunks from Kingmaker's dialogue from overly talkative NPCs and I don't think game would lose much.

 

[Lacrymas]

Editing didn't help White March or PoE2, so. All editing does is cut out superfluous dialogue that is either repetitive, self-evident in context, too long for the word budget, or extremely unnecessary. It doesn't magically create a good story or characters.

 

[Shadenuat]

All editing does is cut out superfluous dialogue that is either repetitive, self-evident in context, too long for the word budget, or extremely unnecessary

Which is a great improvement regardless of the material.

Remember, dialogue also serves informational function in games. It tells you what to do and where to go, so you can reduce players' frustration at least from that.

 

[deuxhero]

You want exposition, do like Ultima or Arcanum, put it in the fucking manual. Nice relaxed intro to a game.

Kind of a tangent, but I do wonder if the move to digital has hurt some games in a way I would have never anticipated. Compared to the 80s/90s, manuals are now often an afterthought for both devs and gamers, and I wonder if some designers therefore try to take what would have once been in the manual and instead cram it into the game's intro.

Having the tutorial as its own option (as a completely separate menu option, part of starting a new game, or in the list of campaigns) has existed since forever (earliest I can recall off-hand is Deus Ex in 2000, and I'm pretty sure there are strategy games with dedicated "tutorial" campaigns released far earlier), yet developers rarely include it. Bad design has nothing to do with lack of manuals.

 

[Shadenuat]

This game has rain affecting movement but has no arrows or any other ammunition for ranged weapons.

Where does this degenerate design always come from

 

[Neanderthal]

The following year the witch-queen Baba Yaga invaded the Linnorm Kingdom

Is Kingdom just called Linnorm or is it actually a kingdom of Fafnir like Dragons?

 

[Shadenuat]

Shitton of your ass cursing dragons there are yes.

 

[Shadenuat]

I was glancing through Kingmaker btw, and can't find purple dick gnome. Module actually starts in Oleg's tavern with you drinking free wine. It is also non-linear and in 6 parts (like all Pathfinder adventure path modules though), with monsters in last parts having challenge rating of 17+. I did find Jubilost though and an ending picture with barbarian chick on the throne with many half naked men in collars around her.

I am struggling to imagine that developers would implement all 6 parts though. The first part seems, as expected, mostly kobolds, bandits, wyverns, fey, your basic BG1 stuff. Also half cricket fey with titties playing pranks on you. The idea is basically exploration focused on wild lands.

Highly doubt we'll live to see gathering our own army and using it to fight other lords, or taking place in a royal tournament. Unless this game would be in development for many years and with multiple DLCs.

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

that i don't know, i just know there was a precedent

The following year the witch-queen Baba Yaga invaded the Linnorm Kingdom of Raemerrund and the Djurstor Confederacy from over the Winterwall Glacier, bringing with her an army of ice trolls, cold fey, frost giant, white dragons, and other evil creatures.

Queen Tashanna used the power of the Torc of Kostchtchie to summon the demon lord Kostchtchie and forced him to assist her in fending off the Witch Queen. Despite this assistance, Tashanna and her followers were quickly defeated by Baba Yaga.



Class Witch 20 / Archmage 10 her level https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/The_Witch_Queen's_Revenge

Looks like they went full sjw and ditched all the men :D

 

[Shadenuat]

Paizo are known sjws.

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

Paizo are known sjws.

I know, I played the Curse of the Crimson throne module... all the way from lvl 1 to 20, pretty much every single fighting character was a feminazi, while all the men were bumbling merchants and tormented artists with 10s for stats. Unbelievable.

 

[Shadenuat]

Well a pair of angry lesbians backstabbing each other as main villains is better than average.

I still want to play this game very much. I am somewhat sick of progressive rpg design and just want to kill some kobolds in the mines with my +1 sword.