Opening vignettes, Part 2

[Vault Dweller]

Here is the original thread that Spazmo started. It deals with different starting locations and character motivations.
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3017

I have a specific situation that I'd like to discuss. The story starts when your character acquires a certain item. The game is skill-based and focuses on one character. Originally your character, regardless of the skills, was supposed to get it by being in the wrong place at the right time (think of the ring at beginning of Arcanum), but it's too generic, and doesn't really explain what your character had been doing there in the first place.

Now, vignettes of course are a better way to go, but if I do it, I want to do it right. So, here are the skills that I have:
One handed melee, Two handed melee, Exotic melee, Ranged weapons, Critical strike, Armor, Dodge, Sneak, Disguise, Lockpick, Disarm, Steal, Spot, Persuasion, Streetwise, Etiquette, Lore, Trading, Repair, Healing.

So, 3 questions:

1. Should there be different ways to acquire the item? For example, a thief would steal it among other things, a bookworm would recognize it and buy it, a fighter working as a bodyguard would inherit it when his master is assassinated, an assassin would be sent to kill, etc

2. What is the best way to decide who your character is: assassin, fighter, librarian, knight? Should I make invisible classes just to start the game, so if you pick dagger, critical strike, sneak, and disguise, the game marks you as an assassin and send you to kill the item's owner instead of something else? Or should I make 4 basic vignettes: fighter, thief, charisma boy, and lore boy based on the highest skills? Or should I let a player pick his current occupation despite his skills (you study to become a loremaster and you work as an assassin to pay for your studies )?

3. Based on the original thread, you want more motivation for your character, something longer then 1 minute, and some little things here and there throughout the game to remind that you started it differently. Anything else?

Any thoughts?

 

[Monte Carlo]

1. Should there be different ways to acquire the item? For example, a thief would steal it among other things, a bookworm would recognize it and buy it, a fighter working as a bodyguard would inherit it when his master is assassinated, an assassin would be sent to kill, etc

Would a generic method of getting the item be cooler and assist in cohesion regarding the plot? For my two copper pieces this is more desirable than multiple but, ultimately, shallower skills-based options. If you can combine these qualities then fine. If not, don't.

2. What is the best way to decide who your character is: assassin, fighter, librarian, knight? Should I make invisible classes just to start the game, so if you pick dagger, critical strike, sneak, and disguise, the game marks you as an assassin and send you to kill the item's owner instead of something else? Or should I make 4 basic vignettes: fighter, thief, charisma boy, and lore boy based on the highest skills? Or should I let a player pick his current occupation despite his skills (you study to become a loremaster and you work as an assassin to pay for your studies )?

Based on highest skills methinks. Or, alternatively, make it completely random for ultimate DM-BASTARD goodness. Hardcore re-loading at the vignette stage? Hell yeah!

3. Based on the original thread, you want more motivation for your character, something longer then 1 minute, and some little things here and there throughout the game to remind that you started it differently.

I thought that one of the few things that ToEE got right was the short, pithy and to the fucking point opening vignettes. I think keeping it simple initially, then adding subtle layers of plot/ motivation/ Mcguffin-seeking as you progress is best. And, yes, references that make you remember choices you made some time back, before you knew WTF was going on, are very cool. Especially if they bite you in the arse and make you re-consider how you approach problems!

Anything else?

Yes. Rust monsters.

Cheers
MC

 

[Psilon]

What is the best way to decide who your character is: assassin, fighter, librarian, knight? Should I make invisible classes just to start the game, so if you pick dagger, critical strike, sneak, and disguise, the game marks you as an assassin and send you to kill the item's owner instead of something else? Or should I make 4 basic vignettes: fighter, thief, charisma boy, and lore boy based on the highest skills? Or should I let a player pick his current occupation despite his skills (you study to become a loremaster and you work as an assassin to pay for your studies )?

I'm in favor of the "invisible classes" idea. If you remember Daggerfall and Morrowind, they would recommend a class for you based on an optional "personality test." Depending on how many mage/thief/warrior options you chose, it would assign you to a particular bin.

You could do something similar. Assign each skill a "preferred use" (thief, fighter, brain-boy) and count how many of each category appear in the skill selections. I wouldn't make fighter and knight separate categories, though; most of the combat skills would count for each. If you've got four skill choices, then it could go something like:

Ftr Thf Cha Vignette
--- --- --- --------
 0   0   4  Purchase the ring
 0   1   3  Haggle the ring
 0   2   2  Trick your way into possession of the ring
 0   3   1  Steal the ring and talk your way out of it
 0   4   0  Steal the ring and get away clean
 2   1   1  Extort the ring
 3   0   1  Receive the ring as a reward from grateful townsfolk

And so on. There are 15 possible vignettes with this system--is that too many? Note that many of the vignettes differ only in dialogue, though.

 

[Azael]

1: Definitely. The more the better, but I'd say it depends on how you do the rest of the opening. Is the vignette "over" when you find the ring (I'm just going to assume that it's a ring, since tales about rings are übercool) or is there going to be more to it?

2. Invisible classes could work, but it could also cause some confusion if the game has a different idea about that invisible class then the player. Say that you have a character with a focus on Sneak and Ranged Weapons who you want to play as a ranger type and instead start off as an assassin with a blowpipe. You might want to consider having a background system similar to that of Arcanum, something to let the player decide what exactly the character has been doing up until this marvelous adventure starts, and use that to decide the vignette.

3. Basically what you said, the vignette shouldn't be too short and there should be some later events in the game that reflects the vignette (and your actions in it) to enhance the replay value. Also they should be relatively well balanced, if one of them gives the player more gold, loot and experience than the others, you might get some angry gamers at your throat.

 

[Vault Dweller]

No, it's not a ring, it's a map. I hope tales about maps are ubercool too

Would a generic method of getting the item be cooler and assist in cohesion regarding the plot? For my two copper pieces this is more desirable than multiple but, ultimately, shallower skills-based options

Good point, if I can't make it interesting and worthwhile, I'll do the generic one.

I wouldn't make fighter and knight separate categories, though; most of the combat skills would count for each.

Fighter is basically a merc, who earns his living with his sword. Knight is a fighting man who serves the nobility and knows the ways of the court (etiquette skill). A fighter would start handling one of the Fighter's Guild assignments. A knight doesn't do the low work of that sort, he spends his time at one of the local courts. His involvment with the map is different.

And so on. There are 15 possible vignettes with this system--is that too many? Note that many of the vignettes differ only in dialogue, though

Basically I have a mini-story attached to the map. Why the original owner had it, what he intended to with it, etc. Then as this mini story progresses there would be windows of opportunity for different characters to acquire it. A thief would steal it, an assassin would be sent to stop the delivery, a fighter would kill the assassin after he kills the owner, a loremaster would be called to estimate the value and would have a chance to make a copy of the map, etc.

1: Definitely. The more the better, but I'd say it depends on how you do the rest of the opening. Is the vignette "over" when you find the ring (I'm just going to assume that it's a ring, since tales about rings are übercool) or is there going to be more to it?

More to it? Definitely. A knight is the only character with a legit copy of the map, his experience would be different as he would be protected by the house he serves. An assassin wouldn't return the map to the client and would experience a lot of difficulties because of it. A fighter for hire would be kicked out from the Fighter's Guild because his client got killed, and would have some troubles getting a job (quests) from somebody else, etc.

I see vignettes as char traits sorta, they give you bonuses (a thief would have contacts with the underworld) and penalties (a thief is not accepted by the guards) Now, if you have good thieving skills but start as a fighter who is handy with a lockpick, you don't get the thief starting bonuses, but get those of a fighter.

2. Invisible classes could work, but it could also cause some confusion if the game has a different idea about that invisible class then the player. Say that you have a character with a focus on Sneak and Ranged Weapons who you want to play as a ranger type and instead start off as an assassin with a blowpipe. You might want to consider having a background system similar to that of Arcanum, something to let the player decide what exactly the character has been doing up until this marvelous adventure starts, and use that to decide the vignette.

Yeah, that was my concern too, a background or at least current occupation would help here. That way the assassin option would be open to many characters, if that;'s a good idea.

Also they should be relatively well balanced, if one of them gives the player more gold, loot and experience than the others, you might get some angry gamers at your throat.

Exp is the same, gold varies, as a knight would be well paid and supplied, while a fighter would have to earn his supplies.

 

[Psilon]

I wouldn't make fighter and knight separate categories, though; most of the combat skills would count for each.

Fighter is basically a merc, who earns his living with his sword. Knight is a fighting man who serves the nobility and knows the ways of the court (etiquette skill). A fighter would start handling one of the Fighter's Guild assignments. A knight doesn't do the low work of that sort, he spends his time at one of the local courts. His involvment with the map is different.

Yeah, but using the method I proposed, where's the demarcation between "fighter skills" and "knight skills?" Not counting Etiquette (and perhaps Persuasion), both groups are going to use melee skills, armor, and the like. I wasn't saying that the two had to be identical for actual gameplay, but rather that they don't work well with the "invisible classes" idea.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I would use the method you proposed, but only after a vignette is chosen, i.e. if you get a fighter vignette, depending on your skills combination you would be able to handle the situation differently.(i.e. fighter has to deal with an assasin, he could kill him, assassinate him, trick him, intimidate, etc)

After I added some consequences of the vignettes and modified the gameplay a little bit, the vignettes or the invisible classes (occupation) became like char traits giving you bonuses and penalties. To do that properly (explain it to the player), the role of each occupation should be defined. You have to know why you are there (in this particular vignette) in the first place. Many skills including etiquette are used not only to get a different dialogue line, but define your place within the setting. If your etiquette is high enough you can go through the entire game as an agent of one of the noble houses representing their interests. Many NPCs wouldn't want to cause you any troubles because of "who you are with", etc.

So I think the best way would be to give you a choice of a current occupation, including none, in which case you would start as a passerby who acquires the map accidentally. That way you can have all the skills you want without bonuses or penalties of the occupations.

 

[Monte Carlo]

The only concern I have is that you might up throwing the baby out with the bathwater. What I'm saying is that in a game like TOEE (which is story-lite) the vignettes add context in a neat and compact way. In a more plot-orientated game wouldn't it make more sense to add one generic opening act but add, instead, multiple cool ways of handling it depending on character type?

If resources aren't an issue and you've got time to add these bells and whistles then good luck to you. Sounds great. But if not...

Cheers
MC